Velosophy

I’m developing a small parts and steel frames stash and I’m planning a couple builds this year? Thanks!

IdahoBrett 

Loaded question that I’m unqualified to answer in detail. There are some knowledgeable folks here that can answer that very well. But what I do know is; depends and not really.

There are different threadings and different dimensions from brand to brand. But some do interchange provided the dimensions and threading is the same.

Are you sticking with one brand or many?

albrt 

I will be interested to hear from the real experts. As a lowly co-op volunteer, one of the reasons I like bikes from the late 1970s into the 1980s is because a lot of parts are interchangeable. If you're working with a mid-range bike from that period, your chances of success with a random BB or a headset pulled out of a bin are pretty high. It starts getting dicier again in the 1990s with new frame materials, plus companies saw more advantages to having proprietary parts as the parts became more disposable.

Seems like higher end bikes were always their own thing.

branko_76 

look at Sheldon Brown's website

nlerner

It depends. Are you asking if the individual parts (e.g., races, bearings, spacers) are interchangeable across three decades, multiple brands, different threading (Italian vs. English vs. French vs. Swiss), different BB shell spacing and headset stack height? If you get really, really lucky and have a deep parts bin.

SJX426 

No. If sticking to a country of origin like Italian, French or British, a big maybe depending on the decade. The bigger the decade number the less likelyhood.

Piff 

No offemse, but if you don't know the answer to this very basic question I would recommend wrenching on random old bikes for a year or two before plunking down cash to develop a 'stash'. And read copious bikeforums threads. There are always exceptions.

In general though, italian threaded headsets with a short stack will work for the majority of european bikes you run across, excluding French and Raleigh standards. Japan has their own standard too, but some manufacturers used the italian standard for their high-end bikes. Bottom brackets...they're a much hairier matter considering expected spindle length is unique to each crank model and became shorter as time progressed, single vs double vs triple cranksets (what's your expected build??), threading, spindle/crank interface...

In short, bottom brackets are a hard no. Headsets are a cautious maybe for a large number of frames.

jdawginsc 

The only cross compatible pieces of BBs/HSs that I know of...
Sugino plays nice with Campagnolo (chain rings too).

That's all. Other compatibles had more to do with one manufacturer badging another's pieces as their own. (Suntour Superbe brakes/Gran Compes, Takagi-Shimano

Headsets "might" play nicely for a random lock nut or spacer, but those do not comprise part of the system. Bearing sizes, positions in cups, the size and alignment of spindles, etc... were largely proprietary to the brand and model.

Hondo6

OP: I definitely concur with the recommendation above that you give the late Sheldon Brown's website some study if you're really a "newbie" to C&V bicycles. Though simple in design, due to multiple, often incompatible variants classic threaded headsets are a fairly complex subject with many ways to get in trouble if you don't do your homework.

Threaded headsets require either special adapters (which allow use of a newer threadless stem) or quill stems (older design and intended to be used with threaded headsets). Headsets also interface with both frame and fork, so all four parts (quill stem or adapter, frame, fork, and headset) must be compatible. And due to variations within different designs of theoretically compatible headset/frame/fork/stem combinations, sometimes such theoretically compatible combinations . . . . aren't. One example: a standard ISO 1" headset with a large stack height might not be usable with a theoretically compatible frame and fork if the fork has previously been used with a shorter headset and cut to fit that configuration exactly.

As you might have guessed, quill stems are also an area with multiple, sometimes incompatible variants and ways to get in trouble. Ditto for C&V frames and forks.

These three URLs give a decent overview of the variations among headsets and stems.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-headsets.html

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-handlebars.html

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/headsets.html

Best of luck, and welcome.

Velosophy

Thanks everyone for time in replying to my basic question. Didn’t get flamed off the forum so that’s a start. Over the years randomly I have spend time reading Sheldon browns website. A legacy left behind for the masses.

Ultimately it will be trial and error and undoubtedly some choice four letter words to get the job done.

I just picked up a frame fork 70s Nishiki. Bad repaint that I plan to strip and repaint. Really like the lugs on it. Probably single speed.

Also, an old 60s Carlton. Thinking 80s Shimano 600 might make it a good rider. Most likely leave frame as is after polish. I have a complete 600 group off ‘85 Trek 420. I will need to source bb bearings etc from and old Raleigh possibly?

Addicted to looking for cheap steel online

Thanks everyone!

3alarmer 

...ball bearings (not the sealed ball bearing cartridge units, but individual balls) are one of the few bright spots in cross compatibility for old bike parts. You can source bulk ball bearings either from a local bearing supply place, or buy them online in lots of 100. You can usually get by with three or four sizes, all of which are pretty universal in use back in the 60's,70's and early 80's. Later 80's and 90's is more the era of sealed unit bearings, both in BB's and headsets.

Ball bearings are pretty cheap, and you don't really need the retainers in replacement use. You should probably buy yourself some basic measuring tools, like a Vernier caliper and a go/no go gauge for bearings, which is usually part of any spoke measurement ruler.

daka

The 60's Carlton will likely have the wrong spacing at the rear dropouts for an '80s Shimano hub. If it is a low-end Carlton like a Catalina (the predecessor of the Raleigh Grand Prix) there is a possibility that the Carlton may have been built with a Raleigh bottom bracket since Raleigh took ownership of Carlton around 1961. To check, measure the width of the bottom bracket (just the painted portion, not the hardware) if it is 68 mm it is standard British fare - if over 70 mm it is the Raleigh unit.

I never think of Headsets or Bottom Brackets as interchangeable parts. Stack heights on headsets vary even though the diameters may be correct and Bottom Bracket cups vary in thickness and need to be used with a spindle of the correct spacing between the races. There may be some interchangeability between, say, Japanese bikes built in the mid- 70s but I wouldn't count on it. Between the '70s and the '90s, forget it. Brake reach, hub spacing, recessed brake bolts, etc. Very little will be common.

Frkl

I would also add that there are just too many combinations in both BBs (shell type, spindle length, taper) and headsets (steerer tube diameter, crown race, head tube ID, threading spec, stack height) to make stashing ahead of time worth it. And honestly, the hobby gets expensive enough if you just buy one of what you need rather than 10 in the hopes you will use 1 eventually. And you will definitely develop a stash as a result of the hobby--all the bits you buy, install, realize don't work, but then can't return. Stocking up on parts like headsets and BBS only works if you really know what you tend to need and have a real focus. Now, go ahead and buy fasteners, tubes, cables, ferrules, housing, even brake pads in bulk if you really get into it; these kinds of things will get used up eventually, and the unit cost is way lower.

One exception might be, if you really do plan to stick to one kind of bottom bracket, say BSA: You can buy a few bottom brackets to use as gauges to figure out the correct spindle length. So if you have a crank but don't know the spindle length you need, you can install everything on your test bottom bracket, measure, uninstall the test unit, and then buy the correct one. I think I have a few longer spindle units, say c 118 or 120, and I find this quite handy.

JohnDThompson 

Or, a local bike co-op with a deep parts bin.

Velosophy

The Carlton BB is 68mm. Something to go on.
Thanks

zukahn1 

Also you should note that a lot of Ralieghs used different threaded BB with a 10mm or so drive side offset from the 1930's till the early 80's so for these you will need Raliegh cup and ball BB.

Hondo6

Regarding the Nishiki: if it needs a new headset, you could do far worse than going with one of the Tange-Seiki models (Passage or Levin CDS). 1" versions of both have reasonably short stack heights as I recall (around 31mm for the Passage, maybe 33 or 34mm [and possibly even shorter] for the Levin CDS). Neither is particularly light - but Tange makes excellent stuff.

The Passage is the "lower-end" of the two, but is definitely not low quality.

If the Nishiki fork is cut for a very short stack height, one of these might be a lifesaver for the build. Much easier to add a spacer or two than have someone extend (or replace) the fork steerer tube.

As of a year or so ago, both JIS and ISO crown races were available for the Passage - and if memory serves, for the Levin CDS as well. Definitely worth checking this on the frame and fork with calipers, as if I recall correctly some 1970s frames made in Japan may be JIS spec (both headtube and fork) vice ISO.

I believe complete headsets of both types were also available in both ISO and JIS as of a year or so ago also, but I'm not positive about that - and you need to check the headset specs very carefully. I've purchased at least one Passage that was marked as having a JIS crown race but ISO headset cups. (That was what I needed at the time, so I bought it.)

Best of luck with the build. Nishiki frames are reputed to be sweet rides, and if you decide to go multi-speed vice single-speed they'd very likely look and ride nicely with an early (non-indexed) Shimano 600 set of derailleurs and other period-correct components.

Kabuki12

You're looking for parts to cover 30 years of various bicycles ? Hmmmm..... Gonna be a large bin!!

clubman 

That's easy, drive a U-haul to Nova Scotia and empty out my basement.

Dfrost 

That’s the width of the BB shell, and very common width for most non-Italian road bikes (also easily measured), not the length of the BB, which is measured end-to-end at the outboard ends of the taper. It’s this length that varies widely, but again, Sheldon Brown can help tremendously to look for the BB length for a specific crankset. BTW, cottered BB’s are obviously different!

Velosophy

clubman, don’t tempt me now, I need a road trip. From Arizona is more than a can manage.

Also, on the Carlton I was trying to date it.
The only numbers anywhere on the frame was a 73 on the top tube lug but also a 60 on the down tube lug right below. Seams weird. Has the Wilsop head badge and wrap around seat stays? Also has a k on the bb?

daka

Here is a link that suggests that a "K" serial number indicates 1962
Dating Carltons – Frame Numbers – Carlton Cycles

The "73" you see on the top tube lug is more likely an indication of frame angle.

Velosophy

I knew Carlton was old when laid eyes on it the first time. I does appear to be ‘62, so that’s pretty cool. And of course those lug numbers are degrees, don’t know why I didn’t think of that.

Thinking the ‘75 Nishiki will be the first build. Easier for parts and the repaint should be a fun project.

Thanks for all the knowledgeable responses regarding the bb headsets etc.

JohnDThompson 

And in any case, it's fairly trivial to convert a JIS crown race seat and head tube to fit ISO-spec headset parts.

squirtdad

if you haven't figured this out yet (took me ages to) a good caliper is you best friend when figuring out headsets and seat posts

have fun and don't cuss to much