Please explain why headsets matter
07-18-18, 12:13 AM
#26
verktyg
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,030
Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1980s DeRosa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA SBDU Team Pro
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1036 Post(s)
Liked 1,238 Times
in
654 Posts
Dented vs. Indented
According to the dictionary, a dent is "a slight hollow in a hard, even surface made by a blow or by the exertion of pressure".
And indent is, "deep recesses or notches in (a line or surface)".
Yup, those darn dents are actually indents. I can learns stuff all the time, eh.
Anyway, goods heads up on my poor choice of words. Good to get today's mistake out of the way early:-)
And indent is, "deep recesses or notches in (a line or surface)".
Yup, those darn dents are actually indents. I can learns stuff all the time, eh.
Anyway, goods heads up on my poor choice of words. Good to get today's mistake out of the way early:-)
I wasn't aware of the difference between dented and indented so there, I learned something too.
Are you using a Canadian English dictionary or a US one eh?
The US and the UK... two peoples divided by a common language.
"Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, at least they'll find your handy!" Red Green
verktyg
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
07-18-18, 03:18 AM
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: GWN
Posts: 2,538
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1858 Post(s)
Liked 606 Times
in
403 Posts
Not a poor choice of words. I commented that you described the results very well and I use the word indented.
I wasn't aware of the difference between dented and indented so there, I learned something too.
Are you using a Canadian English dictionary or a US one eh?
The US and the UK... two peoples divided by a common language.
"Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, at least they'll find your handy!" Red Green
verktyg
I wasn't aware of the difference between dented and indented so there, I learned something too.
Are you using a Canadian English dictionary or a US one eh?
The US and the UK... two peoples divided by a common language.
"Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, at least they'll find your handy!" Red Green
verktyg
You have won the Award for using the most Canadian stereotypes in one post
Oh and by the way Canada is not in the UK (lately I wish we were). You can verify that by checking a map.
Scotty
Last edited by Wileyone; 07-18-18 at 12:49 PM.
07-18-18, 08:22 AM
#29
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,502
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7348 Post(s)
Liked 2,463 Times
in
1,433 Posts
Welcome back, @rootboy. We missed you.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
07-18-18, 08:24 PM
#30
Disraeli Gears
A headset's job is to keep the fork and frame together with the absolute minimum of play, while allowing easy rotation, and lasting a long time while exposed to a lot of junk flung at it by wheel and road. It's a tall order. Crappy headset may contribute significantly to shimmy problems. Vintage frame and fork are built with a limited range of stack that will work. Worth paying a bit more for one that does all those things, and looks good too.
07-18-18, 08:35 PM
#31
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,502
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7348 Post(s)
Liked 2,463 Times
in
1,433 Posts
Well then, what's the least you can spend that fulfills these requirements? Did I spend too little? It was $10 or $12, and it's serving me perfectly so far.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
07-18-18, 09:33 PM
#32
Disraeli Gears
OP asked why headsets matter, not the least one had to spend to be satisfied. I think you may now know how little you can spend and be happy with a headset; but maybe you should try again, and see how it goes.
Last edited by Charles Wahl; 07-18-18 at 09:36 PM.
07-18-18, 09:49 PM
#33
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,502
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7348 Post(s)
Liked 2,463 Times
in
1,433 Posts
Right, but there is a point of diminishing returns, after which, one won't feel the need to spend more.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
07-18-18, 09:52 PM
#34
You gonna eat that?
I have several older bikes, all using the original headsets. So.... what's your point?
__________________
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi 
"However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
07-18-18, 10:19 PM
#35
Banned.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Vegemite Island
Posts: 4,130
Bikes: 2017 Surly Troll with XT Drive Train, 2017 Merida Big Nine XT Edition, 2016 Giant Toughroad SLR 2, 1995 Trek 830
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1916 Post(s)
Liked 310 Times
in
218 Posts
The latest version uses precision sealed ball bearing cartridges. The seem to work as well but I think the needle bearing style was perfect. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
NOTE: there are some black Stronglight A9 headsets being sold on eBay. They are painted steel not aluminum and they have plain caged ball bearings.
Let me ask a noob question here, but I assume the steel Stronglight headsets with the caged ball bearings, aren't as good as the aluminium version(s) with the cartridge ball bearings?
07-18-18, 11:03 PM
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 765
Bikes: Fitz randonneuse, Trek Superfly/AL, Tsunami SS, Bacchetta, HPV Speed Machine, Rans Screamer
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
Let me put it in visceral terms.
A bad headset will make the bike handle poorly. You may not even know it is the headset, and may think the bike is just a bit off, misaligned, poorly designed or flexy. The bike may feel twitchy, like it won’t go straight, or is difficult to ride with no hands. You may not even know there is a problem until after replacing the headset and feeling the improvement.
A headset may be bad from the start, or get damaged easily during assembly, and will be harder to get dialed in just right. It may have insufficient seals against water and dirt, or seals that cause drag. And will deteriorate more quickly.
These days it doesn’t cost much to get a decent headset. But over the years having cracked, shattered, contaminated and worn out, dented (or indented or whatever), I tend to notice headset problems early. $40 or $140? A bit like picking fly poop out of pepper.
A bad headset will make the bike handle poorly. You may not even know it is the headset, and may think the bike is just a bit off, misaligned, poorly designed or flexy. The bike may feel twitchy, like it won’t go straight, or is difficult to ride with no hands. You may not even know there is a problem until after replacing the headset and feeling the improvement.
A headset may be bad from the start, or get damaged easily during assembly, and will be harder to get dialed in just right. It may have insufficient seals against water and dirt, or seals that cause drag. And will deteriorate more quickly.
These days it doesn’t cost much to get a decent headset. But over the years having cracked, shattered, contaminated and worn out, dented (or indented or whatever), I tend to notice headset problems early. $40 or $140? A bit like picking fly poop out of pepper.
07-18-18, 11:04 PM
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Point Reyes Station, California
Posts: 4,527
Bikes: Indeed!
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1507 Post(s)
Liked 3,469 Times
in
1,131 Posts
Brent
07-19-18, 02:34 AM
#38
verktyg
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,030
Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1980s DeRosa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA SBDU Team Pro
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1036 Post(s)
Liked 1,238 Times
in
654 Posts
Stronglight A9 Versions
Aside from the black painted surface vs. chromed plating, they're most likely case hardened low quality steel with unground bearing races.
The original aluminum A9 headsets were much better quality than the cheap black steel ones. The new ones with the sealed cartridges are even better made than the original A9s. They're selling for ~$60.
A cheap headset lower bearing cup. Notice the rough surface of the chrome plating in the bearing races.
Precision ground bearing races in a quality headset cup.
Caged headset bearings. One problem with cages is the tend to keep the balls in the same position which increases the likelihood for indenting via wear and/or impact.
Indented crown race
The indentations most frequently occur in the crown race and lower headset cup. They are located in the same position in both parts which results in "indexing". There's a cheap temporary fix for indexing. Remove the fork and remove either the bottom head tube cup or crown race. Rotate it a few degrees and reassemble.
verktyg
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
07-19-18, 04:05 AM
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: GWN
Posts: 2,538
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1858 Post(s)
Liked 606 Times
in
403 Posts
Just to be clear, I was discussing the currently manufactured black painted Stronglight A9 steel headsets. They are currently selling on eBay for $16 to $30. You get what you pay for!
Aside from the black painted surface vs. chromed plating, they're most likely case hardened low quality steel with unground bearing races.
The original aluminum A9 headsets were much better quality than the cheap black steel ones. The new ones with the sealed cartridges are even better made than the original A9s. They're selling for ~$60.
A cheap headset lower bearing cup. Notice the rough surface of the chrome plating in the bearing races.
Precision ground bearing races in a quality headset cup.
Caged headset bearings. One problem with cages is the tend to keep the balls in the same position which increases the likelihood for indenting via wear and/or impact.
Indented crown race
The indentations most frequently occur in the crown race and lower headset cup. They are located in the same position in both parts which results in "indexing". There's a cheap temporary fix for indexing. Remove the fork and remove either the bottom head tube cup or crown race. Rotate it a few degrees and reassemble.
verktyg
Aside from the black painted surface vs. chromed plating, they're most likely case hardened low quality steel with unground bearing races.
The original aluminum A9 headsets were much better quality than the cheap black steel ones. The new ones with the sealed cartridges are even better made than the original A9s. They're selling for ~$60.
A cheap headset lower bearing cup. Notice the rough surface of the chrome plating in the bearing races.
Precision ground bearing races in a quality headset cup.
Caged headset bearings. One problem with cages is the tend to keep the balls in the same position which increases the likelihood for indenting via wear and/or impact.
Indented crown race
The indentations most frequently occur in the crown race and lower headset cup. They are located in the same position in both parts which results in "indexing". There's a cheap temporary fix for indexing. Remove the fork and remove either the bottom head tube cup or crown race. Rotate it a few degrees and reassemble.
verktyg
Scotty
07-19-18, 05:03 AM
#40
What??? Only 2 wheels?
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Posts: 13,434
Bikes: 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1222 Post(s)
Liked 645 Times
in
232 Posts
07-19-18, 08:18 AM
#41
Intrepid Bicycle Commuter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 819
Bikes: 1976 Motobecane Grand Jubile, Austro Daimler 'Ultima', 2012 Salsa Vaya, 2009 Trek 4300, Fyxation Eastside, State Matte Black 6, '97 Trek 930 SHX, '93 Specialized Rockhopper, 1990 Trek 950
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked 94 Times
in
34 Posts
I had to disassemble and clean the Campagnolo headset on my Austro Daimler build a few nights ago. I was blown away by the quality.
Don't know if this translates to better performance or longevity, but the steering is impossibly smooth after cleaning, re-greasing, and reassembly.
Don't know if this translates to better performance or longevity, but the steering is impossibly smooth after cleaning, re-greasing, and reassembly.
07-19-18, 08:20 AM
#42
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,502
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7348 Post(s)
Liked 2,463 Times
in
1,433 Posts
...through what one mechanic called "enhanced randomness."
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
07-19-18, 08:27 AM
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Center of Central CA
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 897 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
8 Posts
A loose stem / headset did not prevent Peter Sagan from winning the 2018 Paris Roubaix.
I'm not sure whether the takeaway is that headsets are pretty irrelevant even to professional racers . . . or Sagan is so good that a even a bad headset can't stop him. Guess it could be spun either way.
I'm not sure whether the takeaway is that headsets are pretty irrelevant even to professional racers . . . or Sagan is so good that a even a bad headset can't stop him. Guess it could be spun either way.
07-19-18, 08:51 AM
#44
BMX Connoisseur
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 774
Bikes: 1988 Kuwahara Newport, 1983 Nishiki, 1984 Diamond Back Viper, 1991 Dyno Compe
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 399 Post(s)
Liked 108 Times
in
69 Posts
A loose stem / headset did not prevent Peter Sagan from winning the 2018 Paris Roubaix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfqbQdsN9-A
I'm not sure whether the takeaway is that headsets are pretty irrelevant even to professional racers . . . or Sagan is so good that a even a bad headset can't stop him. Guess it could be spun either way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfqbQdsN9-A
I'm not sure whether the takeaway is that headsets are pretty irrelevant even to professional racers . . . or Sagan is so good that a even a bad headset can't stop him. Guess it could be spun either way.
07-19-18, 11:21 AM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 6,154
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2363 Post(s)
Liked 1,749 Times
in
1,191 Posts
Oh and by the way Canada is not in the UK (lately I wish we were). You can verify that by checking a map.
07-19-18, 10:10 PM
#47
Banned.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Vegemite Island
Posts: 4,130
Bikes: 2017 Surly Troll with XT Drive Train, 2017 Merida Big Nine XT Edition, 2016 Giant Toughroad SLR 2, 1995 Trek 830
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1916 Post(s)
Liked 310 Times
in
218 Posts
Just to be clear, I was discussing the currently manufactured black painted Stronglight A9 steel headsets. They are currently selling on eBay for $16 to $30. You get what you pay for!
Aside from the black painted surface vs. chromed plating, they're most likely case hardened low quality steel with unground bearing races.
The original aluminum A9 headsets were much better quality than the cheap black steel ones. The new ones with the sealed cartridges are even better made than the original A9s. They're selling for ~$60.
A cheap headset lower bearing cup. Notice the rough surface of the chrome plating in the bearing races.
Precision ground bearing races in a quality headset cup.
Caged headset bearings. One problem with cages is the tend to keep the balls in the same position which increases the likelihood for indenting via wear and/or impact.
Indented crown race
The indentations most frequently occur in the crown race and lower headset cup. They are located in the same position in both parts which results in "indexing". There's a cheap temporary fix for indexing. Remove the fork and remove either the bottom head tube cup or crown race. Rotate it a few degrees and reassemble.
verktyg
Aside from the black painted surface vs. chromed plating, they're most likely case hardened low quality steel with unground bearing races.
The original aluminum A9 headsets were much better quality than the cheap black steel ones. The new ones with the sealed cartridges are even better made than the original A9s. They're selling for ~$60.
A cheap headset lower bearing cup. Notice the rough surface of the chrome plating in the bearing races.
Precision ground bearing races in a quality headset cup.
Caged headset bearings. One problem with cages is the tend to keep the balls in the same position which increases the likelihood for indenting via wear and/or impact.
Indented crown race
The indentations most frequently occur in the crown race and lower headset cup. They are located in the same position in both parts which results in "indexing". There's a cheap temporary fix for indexing. Remove the fork and remove either the bottom head tube cup or crown race. Rotate it a few degrees and reassemble.
verktyg
Thanks, I've made a much needed addition to my knowledge bank, thanks to your replies.
