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Early Dura Ace vs Neuvo Record

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Early Dura Ace vs Neuvo Record

Old 06-08-19, 05:19 AM
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Early Dura Ace vs Nuovo Record

How does DA from the Ď70s compare? I have some exposure to NR, thanks to the Raleigh Pro, but none with high-end Shimano of that era. Iíve come across a nice-looking mid-70s bike equipped with DA, rather than the originally specíd NR for the model. Itís priced like Iíd expect with full Campy parts.
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Old 06-08-19, 05:56 AM
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At the time, Campy had the cachet but the Dura-Ace stuff is pretty nice. I wouldn't mind tracking down a complete group on a bike.

The first generation Dura-Ace derailleurs are marked crane though. Dura-Ace had at least two advantages over campy: the crane long cage rear derailleur is pretty nice and functionally I like it better than the first gen campy rally; the Dura-Ace crank is 130 bcd so you can go as small as the 39 up front.
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Old 06-08-19, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
At the time, Campy had the cachet but the Dura-Ace stuff is pretty nice. I wouldn't mind tracking down a complete group on a bike.

The first generation Dura-Ace derailleurs are marked crane though. Dura-Ace had at least two advantages over campy: the crane long cage rear derailleur is pretty nice and functionally I like it better than the first gen campy rally; the Dura-Ace crank is 130 bcd so you can go as small as the 39 up front.
IIRC, it was common to swap out brake levers and brakes for DA side pulls BITD.

What I've gleaned from some threads is early DA does not have the same monetary value as NR. Is this accurate?
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Old 06-08-19, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
What I've gleaned from some threads is early DA does not have the same monetary value as NR. Is this accurate?
Very.

I worked in a high-end bike shop in 1982-1983. The boss was a big bigot and liked Campagnolo over everything. He coached us in responding to customers' questions. When asked if something Shimano was as good as Campagnolo, he told us to say, "What, are you out of your f***ing mind?"
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Old 06-08-19, 12:40 PM
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In 1976 it worked fine, but not the same cachet, or price. Finish was pretty good, and came in nice boxes. Vintage wise, I think the relationship hasn't changed much.
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Old 06-08-19, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Last ride 76 View Post
In 1976 it worked fine, but not the same cachet, or price. Finish was pretty good, and came in nice boxes. Vintage wise, I think the relationship hasn't changed much.
Did the mid-70s edition cranks look like SR copies?
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Old 06-08-19, 01:27 PM
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To put it bluntly, Dura Ace 7400 blew Campagnolo Nuevo Record out of the water, showing it to be the overpriced, snob brand that it was.

Actually, it didn't take that long. The main significance of Dura Ace is that it was the first complete gruppo that not only competed, but beat Campagnolo at it's own game. Prior to that, you could easily outdo Nuevo Record, but you had to buy an all high end French bike to do it. Say, a Puegeot PX-10 or Gitane Tour de France. Motobecane, etc. make competitive bikes.

Prior to the Dura Ace 7400, the killer grouppo was a combination of high end Simplex derailleurs, Stronglight 93 crankset and Mafac Competition brakes. As I found out in 1973 when I paid stupid money for a complete Campy equipped Gitane Professional Super Corsa, and discovered that I'd had better spent my money on a Tour de France.
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Old 06-08-19, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sykerocker View Post
To put it bluntly, Dura Ace 7400 blew Campagnolo Nuevo Record out of the water, showing it to be the overpriced, snob brand that it was.

Actually, it didn't take that long. The main significance of Dura Ace is that it was the first complete gruppo that not only competed, but beat Campagnolo at it's own game. Prior to that, you could easily outdo Nuevo Record, but you had to buy an all high end French bike to do it. Say, a Puegeot PX-10 or Gitane Tour de France. Motobecane, etc. make competitive bikes.

Prior to the Dura Ace 7400, the killer grouppo was a combination of high end Simplex derailleurs, Stronglight 93 crankset and Mafac Competition brakes. As I found out in 1973 when I paid stupid money for a complete Campy equipped Gitane Professional Super Corsa, and discovered that I'd had better spent my money on a Tour de France.
Well, that's hard to argue with, but I was discussing first generation Dura Ace, not something from the 1980s that competed with Super Record.

The 1973 edition:




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Old 06-08-19, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Did the mid-70s edition cranks look like SR copies?
​​​​​
All the cranks I remember were a less than immaculate perfect form of record.
Except for Sugino black anodized chainrings. For one, and only one season I rode those instead of my Campy Drillium.
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Old 06-08-19, 01:49 PM
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I like early DA black group better than Record. Rarely see a nice clean group on a bike though.

And Mavic SSC better than Super.
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Old 06-08-19, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Very.

I worked in a high-end bike shop in 1982-1983. The boss was a big bigot and liked Campagnolo over everything. He coached us in responding to customers' questions. When asked if something Shimano was as good as Campagnolo, he told us to say, "What, are you out of your f***ing mind?"
were you working in a shop in Boston then?

I worked in a good bike shop that sold high end stuff in New Orleans during the 80s. The guys working there definitely preferred campy over shimano. I think that kind of camp prejudice was pretty widespread. You couldn't get small parts for Shimano the way you could for Campy.

By the way, they are asking some stupid prices for first gen dura ace stuff on eBay.
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Old 06-08-19, 01:54 PM
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I would say...pretty much as good as, and pretty much the same price, used.
Haven't seen any complete NIB groups of NR around lately, but have seen a VERY few DA ones, priced around $800.
Which, I think, would be about the same for a similar NIB NR set.
Last very, very nice (but not new) complete- less hubs and pedals- NR group I sold was around $550.

But, ultimately, for a bike I'd actually ride for enjoyment, I'd either go later SR, maybe '83 cuz it shifts a 28 big cog, or DA 740X.
That stuff just plain works better.
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Old 06-08-19, 03:00 PM
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It is spelled "Nuovo Record".

Dura Ace was more or less equivalent, being Shimano's top of the line group. For 9 out of 10 cyclists, it's going have about the same peformance.

Dura Ace cost a bit less. It was not quite as rugged and reliable as NR. It was more susceptible to crash damage. The hubs were nice but not magic smooth like Campy. The brakes didn't have as good fine modulation. The cranks were more prone to creaking. The brake levers sometimes broke. The RD sometimes broke. These difference in practice were relatively small, but they were there. Also, replacement parts were not readily available.

Yeah, 7400 leapfrogged campy when it came out, but that is a different question and a different discussion. There are many very good reasons most people who raced rode all campy BITD. The idea that it was all snobbery is ill informed.

I am not a collector so I don't know what today's market values should be. I'd take a WAG that an otherwise equivalent bike to cost maybe 10% less if Dura Ace instead of Campy NR.
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Old 06-08-19, 03:04 PM
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With Shimano you get parts that changed every year (and still do) so there is and was no interchangeability. Basically there never were service parts and that situation just keeps getting worse.

Once I broke a Campag 1049 crank arm. Took it with me to the next race because I knew I'd see Othon there. Showed him the arm and we walked over to where he was parked. He pulled a crank box out of trunk and handed it to me. "But Othon, this is a complete crank, I only broke the one arm." Complete with rings, bolts, bottom bracket. Othon says to me "Tullio loves you. You ride the bike so much you break cranks. You are walking around being the best advertisement Tullio could wish for. Take it all."

Can you imagine anyone connected with Shimano behaving that way? And it was good business. Made me a customer for life.

Works better? Today I rode a Gran Sport derailleur that is 65 years old. Shifts flawlessly. The last few people who somehow care about first gen Dura Ace will be gone soon and Campy will just keep soldiering on.
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Old 06-08-19, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
I would say...pretty much as good as, and pretty much the same price, used.
Haven't seen any complete NIB groups of NR around lately, but have seen a VERY few DA ones, priced around $800.
Which, I think, would be about the same for a similar NIB NR set.
Last very, very nice (but not new) complete- less hubs and pedals- NR group I sold was around $550.

But, ultimately, for a bike I'd actually ride for enjoyment, I'd either go later SR, maybe '83 cuz it shifts a 28 big cog, or DA 740X.
That stuff just plain works better.
NIB, which is well beyond NOS, group at 800? $350 cranks, brake levers and calipers $400, shifters $65... I don't know if you would get offers at a grand... Seatpost, pedals,derailleurs, hubs, headset...
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Old 06-08-19, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Well, that's hard to argue with, but I was discussing first generation Dura Ace, not something from the 1980s that competed with Super Record.

The 1973 edition:




OK, my misunderstanding. Dropping the timeline back ten years, I'll still put my money on Dura Ace, although not by the large margin it was ten years later.

Back in 73-74, I had two main rides: The aforementioned all-Campy Gitane, and a World Voyageur that I modified somewhat for touring. Changed the wheels to sew-up rims (yes, for touring, they worked quite well, back then the difference between 27x1-1/4 clinchers and sew-ups were that vast), added fenders, bag racks, and a set of three Cannondale panniers. Both bikes had bar end shifters, the Gitane's was Campy, of course.

I still liked the Shimano Crane setup better than the Campagnolo. No, the action wasn't clearly superior like ten years later, but it worked as well, handled a much wider gear range (of course I had the long arm setup on the rear), and cost a hell of a lot less. Not having been the SunTour junkie like a lot of the guys I rode with in the Presque Isle Bicycle Club, I was a bit behind in catching on with the latest tech, but that Voyageur was the first indication I got that the Europeans (and especially Campagnolo) was in for some serious trouble from the Japanese like, right now.

At that moment in time, I still figured the Huret Jubilee was the setup to beat, but Simplex was still holding firm, and the performance of Shimano was eye opening. Things were definitely changing.
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Old 06-08-19, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
It is spelled "Nuovo Record".
Yes, I'm aware. Sorry for the typo. I've been unable to edit the thread title.

Dura Ace was more or less equivalent, being Shimano's top of the line group. For 9 out of 10 cyclists, it's going have about the same peformance.

Dura Ace cost a bit less. It was not quite as rugged and reliable as NR. It was more susceptible to crash damage. The hubs were nice but not magic smooth like Campy. The brakes didn't have as good fine modulation. The cranks were more prone to creaking. The brake levers sometimes broke. The RD sometimes broke. These difference in practice were relatively small, but they were there. Also, replacement parts were not readily available.
Thanks. This is what I suspected.

​​​​​​​BTW, it's spelled "performance."
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Old 06-08-19, 03:13 PM
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I don’t quite understand why Campy NR is so loved. The RD shifts like crap, and that’s even when you don’t stress its limits with, gasp, a 26-tooth max cog. Oh, and it’s nearly impossible to find a set without cracked pulleys. The headsets are prone to brineling, and the crank spiders have a known failure issue. Fortunately, the hub axles and bottom brackets failed at the same rate as most of the era. I guess the brakes perform well though don’t ask to find any with long reach.

Dura Ace vs. NR? No contest.
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Old 06-08-19, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sykerocker View Post
OK, my misunderstanding. Dropping the timeline back ten years, I'll still put my money on Dura Ace, although not by the large margin it was ten years later.

Back in 73-74, I had two main rides: The aforementioned all-Campy Gitane, and a World Voyageur that I modified somewhat for touring. Changed the wheels to sew-up rims (yes, for touring, they worked quite well, back then the difference between 27x1-1/4 clinchers and sew-ups were that vast), added fenders, bag racks, and a set of three Cannondale panniers. Both bikes had bar end shifters, the Gitane's was Campy, of course.

I still liked the Shimano Crane setup better than the Campagnolo. No, the action wasn't clearly superior like ten years later, but it worked as well, handled a much wider gear range (of course I had the long arm setup on the rear), and cost a hell of a lot less. Not having been the SunTour junkie like a lot of the guys I rode with in the Presque Isle Bicycle Club, I was a bit behind in catching on with the latest tech, but that Voyageur was the first indication I got that the Europeans (and especially Campagnolo) was in for some serious trouble from the Japanese like, right now.

At that moment in time, I still figured the Huret Jubilee was the setup to beat, but Simplex was still holding firm, and the performance of Shimano was eye opening. Things were definitely changing.
Shimano was definitely a game-changer, like Toyota. BTW, I absolutely LOVE my Shimano 6000-series groupset, even with non-aero brake levers. Can't imagine how Dura Ace 6XXX could be better, except lighter in weight, and maybe hub quality.
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Old 06-08-19, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
I donít quite understand why Campy NR is so loved. The RD shifts like crap, and thatís even when you donít stress its limits with, gasp, a 26-tooth max cog. Oh, and itís nearly impossible to find a set without cracked pulleys. The headsets are prone to brineling, and the crank spiders have a known failure issue. Fortunately, the hub axles and bottom brackets failed at the same rate as most of the era. I guess the brakes perform well though donít ask to find any with long reach.

Dura Ace vs. NR? No contest.
I was expecting similar shifting qualities when I bought the Raleigh Pro, but my stock NR RD handles 28 teeth cogs with no trouble and shifts as well as my Shimano 600 RD. I've only used six or seven-speed freewheels with these RDs, so it may be worse with five cogs. I have several Shimano 105 RDs with cracked pulleys.

I confess this is my first experience with NR components, but so far I've been pleased. Perhaps they would perform less admirably in racing conditions.
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Old 06-08-19, 03:34 PM
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The perspective prior to Dura Ace was Shimano targeted volume production bikes, less so for the purist racers and podium. High end French and Campy was it.

Before Shimano Dura Ace, racers seeked Suntour as it earned exceptional reputation on its top 1/3 product line. For those in the know, most reliable, light in weight and fast action shifts--- AND also on a tight budget. Incredibly low priced in comparison.

Suntour was often mixed with Campy but you would never see that with Shimano.

To me it seemed that Shimano finally wanted the hardcore racers with the arrival of Dura Ace, yet took awhile. I dig the early black anodized.
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Old 06-08-19, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post

​​​​​​​BTW, it's spelled "performance."
har har. touchť
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Old 06-08-19, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
I donít quite understand why Campy NR is so loved. The RD shifts like crap, and thatís even when you donít stress its limits with, gasp, a 26-tooth max cog. Oh, and itís nearly impossible to find a set without cracked pulleys. The headsets are prone to brineling, and the crank spiders have a known failure issue. Fortunately, the hub axles and bottom brackets failed at the same rate as most of the era. I guess the brakes perform well though donít ask to find any with long reach.

Dura Ace vs. NR? No contest.
Yeah I largely agree with this.
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Old 06-08-19, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Yeah I largely agree with this.
So, youíd be willing to buy a Ď73 DA groupset from me if I had one?
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Old 06-08-19, 04:53 PM
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The LBS where I worked during the boom was a Sekine dealer. They brought out the SHX with Dura-Ace in 1973. At the time, I was on (Nuovo) Record. As noted, your typical cyclist couldn't tell the difference, except in the wallet,. At the time, Dura-Ace was about 60% the price of (Nuovo) Record. Besides the price, the Crane rear derailleur used on the Dura-Ace group shifted better. I also liked the slightly larger shift levers. (Nuovo) Record did have slightly better bearings, harder races and harder chainrings. There was also a matching seat post and pedals, which Dura-Ace didn't introduce until later. However, there was a Dura-Ace freewheel that was far superior to the Regina that typically came on Campagnolo equipped models.

In my region lots of cyclists replaced the Universal centre-pull brakes on their otherwise all Campagnolo bicycles with Dura-Ace. Campagnolo was just too expensive and they liked the fact that the levers were drilled. Some, like me, also switched to the Crane rear derailleur and Dura-Ace levers. I knew others who used all Dura-Ace bicycles except for Record wheelsets. Many who raced Regina freewheels were often tossed, in favour of Maeda and, to a lesser extent, Dura-Ace. (Nuovo) Record far outnumbered Dura-Ace in the mid to late 1970s races in which I participated. I'd estimate it was 20:1. maybe more.

I did end up getting a Sekine SHX but the frame couldn't match my Scapin, which I continued to race with Campagnolo and Shimano mix. Regardless, I had no issues with the Dura-Ace, outside of slightly higher wear rates on the chainrings and bearing races. I had more (Nuovo) Record failures but never had warranty or small parts issues.

IMO, Camapgnolo's (Nuovo) Record series defiinitely has the higher prestige and higher resale value over !st generation Dura-Ace. Similary reduced Super record occupies the same position over 2nd generation Dura-Ace EX and 3rd generation Dura-Ace AX, though I consider the latter to be grossly under rated. Shimano finally gained parity, arguably superiority, with New Dura-Ace (7400 series) in 1985. Cyclists had been berating Shimano for quirky features and New Dura-Ace was largeely a return to basics, at a time when C-Record started to embody quirky designs.
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