gcottay

I've assisted with three driving interventions. All three worked without long-term family problems though one impaired driver did contact the (already informed) local police.

1) Have good alternative transportation arranged. This is essential. Quality is important.
2) Let local law enforcement know what's up.
3) Arrange for car removal.
4) Gather the impaired driver and others at a location away from the car.
5) Explain the alternative transportation arrangements and then mention the car(s) have been removed to a secure location.
6) Contact the former impaired driver daily for a few weeks to make sure all is going well. Help work out any transportation problems.
7) Help the former driver to get a state ID in place of the now-inappropriate license.
8) Assist in the sale or other disposal of car(s).

I may have missed a step above. The process was the brainchild of a long-time police officer who's also a recovering alcoholic.

ModeratedUser150120149

Congratulations on your success. In summary, success comes when intervenors treat the elder person like a human, not a cast off. Your checklist does that. You provided means so the person can continue to have a life. Again congratulations.

But you left out the very first step:. Get to know the person. Being a relative or friend doesn't guarantee a person knows the other person. Amazing how many times really getting to know someone makes a difference.

While this thread focuses on older drivers the basics apply to younger ones as well. Getting to know others and taking their welfare into consideration makes all the difference. Most times law enforcement doesn't need to get involved.

B. Carfree

Read it and weep. Look at the graph about two-thirds of the way down labeled, "Passenger vehicle fatal crash involvement per 100 million miles by driver age, 2008"https://www.iihs.org/research/fatalit...#cite-text-0-1

As you can see, beginning at age seventy, older drivers become more deadly than they were during their prime and when they reach their eighties they are the most lethal motorists on the roadway.

Now, how much of this increased death is due to the increased fragility of old people and how much is due to their increased tendency to crash? From the second reference in the link:
So, at least a third of that increased slope is due to increased crash frequency. That leaves a lot of increase due to such factors as reduced mental acuity, longer reflex times, increased opacity of ocular systems, degeneration of vision, and other age-related physical maladies. There comes a time to hang up the car keys. One can do it gracefully or lethally, but it will be done.

While the law is written to include intoxication due to any material, there are very few tests performed to document impairment due to pharmaceuticals. In my county, there is only one police officer who is trained to detect intoxication due to drugs other than alcohol and his evaluation is required before a complete drug screen will be performed, which makes such a screen quite rare. Add in the fact that there is no legally accepted standard for the level of various drugs that would automatically define the motorist as impaired, and you can see why this is a problem. In a case in the New York area last year, a motorist high on prescription opiates slammed a cyclist into a guardrail at high speed and drove off. In spite of the toxicology results that indicated she had taken more than the prescription allowed, she was determined to not be impaired because she "may" have developed some tolerance to the drug.

I disagree that living without driving a car is "just waiting to die". Millions of Americans are doing so, most of us are quite young but there are many older Americans who are living full lives without handling a steering wheel. In fact, many of us see cars as mere motorized wheelchairs and do not wish to be dependent on them.

I also dispute your notion that incompetent drivers should be allowed to continue driving after their skill set has diminished to the point that they are a hazard to other road users just because they want to drive. I may want to hit golf balls across the freeway, but such an action would be frowned on, to say the least. In a civilized society, we do have an obligation to not harm other people. It's along the lines of your right to swing your fist ends before it strikes my nose. Selfishness is always unbecoming, but is particularly ugly when it is exhibited by our elders who should be setting an example. One often cannot have one's cake and eat it too. If an elderly person wants to live out in the suburbs, then he/she will have to deal with the fact that there will be no door-to-door transportation option available 24/7. (Many communities offer free shuttles for disabled and elderly, but not to go to the liquor store at midnight.) Life is a compromise.

By the way, Oregon does allow concerned citizens to report elderly drivers for retesting and a substantial number of them fail when they are required to take a road test. I'm not sure if this is common in other states. If my parents and in-laws lived in Oregon, I would likely just report them every year and leave it to the tester at the DMV to pull their licenses.

While I am wholeheartedly opposed to scofflaw driving, a casual observation will show you that pretty much every motorist breaks the law on every trip. However, when a person can't see the objects they need to avoid or can't react in time to avoid them, then there is a big problem. A motorist rolling a stop sign when they can see that there is no one there is far less of a hazard than one who rolls it but cannot really see well enough to know if there is someone there.

Back to the main topic of the thread, HawkOwl. Consider what it would take for your younger relatives to convince you that it is time to stop driving. What would they need to do? What evidence would convince you that it is "Time"? Will you just take their word when they tell you that you aren't reacting quickly enough to what is happening or that you are not seeing things that you should see? I believe you are about the same age as my mother-in-law and appear to be similarly stubborn, so your insights into this would be appreciated.

Maybe I should give up hope and accept that older drivers either have the ability to restrain themselves from driving or they don't and no one can influence them. That would certainly be consistent with what my son has nick-named his grandparents' generation. (It's not an appropriate name to share and is far less than complimentary.)

ModeratedUser150120149

I'm not going to be argumentative by going pont by point through your post. Let me just suggest you broaden your perspective. I think it is causing you to mis-interpret reports and to apply them more broadly than the data supports. For example the link you provided is quoted below:

Alcohol
Six percent of fatally injured passenger vehicle drivers 70 years and older in 2011 had blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) at or above 0.08 percent, compared with 17 percent for drivers ages 60-69 and 40 percent for drivers ages 16-59.
Fatally injured passenger vehicle drivers with BAC ≥ 0.08 percent by age, 2011
Age Drivers killed Estimated drivers killed with BACs ≥ 0.08
Number Number %
16-59 11,608 4,626 40
60-69 1,577 269 17
≥70 2,292 142 6
.


As you can see the chart you present applies to alcohol impaired drivers, not all drivers. You attempt to extend this chart to all drivers, which is clearly inappropriate. Also note the oldest group has the smallest percentage, contrary to your assertion.


Please, if you are going to quote me do so accurately. I said, and I repeat, elders like all of us deserve as good a life as possible. I did not say they should continue driving. I did say that friends and family taking care of their transportation needs is not only the humane thing to do it often allows them to willingly stop driving. One person posted a checklist that I lauded.

You appear to want to just taking a person's only means of getting food, having a social life and just leaving them to rot at home.

dynodonn 

Watching some of my rear camera videos, it seems that the same occurs for me on my bike, since local motorists are expecting me to run the stop sign, as do many cyclists in my locale.

B. Carfree

It would be helpful if you would look at the graph in the link that was referenced rather than going off on a point that was covered earlier (see post #18). Yes, older drivers are intoxicated with alcohol less often than younger drivers. That's a good choice, but considering that they are still more deadly on a per mile basis we have to acknowledge that they are considerably more dangerous as a group than younger drivers, even taking the larger alcohol-impaired driving of younger drivers into account. I made no attempt to extend the alcohol table from the link into anything nor did I assert that they have greater alcohol consumption. Reread post #18, then go back and look at the graph in the link regarding fatalities normalized per mile.

Since I quoted your post in its entirety, I could not have misquoted you. Such an unfounded accusation strikes me as rude; perhaps your social norms differ from mine and no offense was intended. Also, I never said people should be deprived of food or social lives. In fact, I pointed out that millions of Americans of all ages are enjoying robust lives, including eating and socializing, without being dependent on automobiles. This can be done in far too many ways to enumerate, but, as I mentioned earlier, there will be choices to be made and compromises aplenty.

I see you declined to enlighten me on just what would convince you that your time had arrived. Perhaps you have never considered such a circumstance and will need more time to decide what your standard would be. Consider this story I read many decades ago:

No one wanted to tell grandpa that he needed to stop driving. No one wanted to damage his pride. One fine evening at the conclusion of a family gathering, grandpa got behind the wheel, put the car into drive, and promptly crushed his grandson's legs to mush when his front bumper rammed his grandson into the rear of the car in front of grandpa's car.

It is my opinion that as we get older, we all need to give someone permission to advise us of when the time has come to hang up the keys. Many years ago I arranged for a group of younger friends and relatives to tell me when they felt my time was approaching. I hope to beat them to the punch, but one never knows how one will react to a difficult situation until one is actually in it. I acknowledge the difficulty of this issue in our nation. Gee whiz, I started this thread to ask for guidance precisely because I see it as a difficult problem. Even if no one has the secret formula for convincing elderly relatives to stop endangering themselves and others, maybe some younger folks will realize their own mortality and begin planning for such a time in their own lives before they feel like their car is their only means to a meaningful life. If that's all I get from this thread, then it's been worth the trouble.

B. Carfree

Am I misreading or is this an involuntary cessation of driving? I do agree that helping to arrange for alternative forms of transportation and having people at the ready to help are necessary steps. We cannot force any of our relatives to stop driving any more than I would be able to force an adult child to give up drugs (not an issue with any of my nieces, nephew or son thankfully).

ModeratedUser150120149

Carfree: Your words: "I started this thread to ask for guidance precisely because I see it as a difficult problem. Even if no one has the secret formula for convincing elderly relatives to stop endangering themselves "

That is the point. There is no secret. Set things up so all the person's transportation needs are met. One person even gave you a useful checklist. Treat them like valuable humans and the details will work themselves out.

Don't want this to become personal so I'll bow out now.

Your post overlapped mine. Involuntary changes rapidly to when concerns are taken care of.

JusticeZero

"Grandma, if you keep driving, you're going to get in a wreck, and someone is going to die. And it probably isn't going to be you."

B. Carfree

That approach may work with my mother, who is a rational, kind-hearted, generous self-sacrificing soul. It may also work with my step mother, who is equally thoughtful. The other four very old people in my immediate family would likely counter that auto wrecks happen all the time, so why should they be special and stop driving. Look at all those dangerous teenagers! Get them to stop driving, especially when they are sleep deprived, texting and drunk.

I'm unlikely to do anything but get four of the six to dig their heels in if I play that card. I might have some success with the fragility of elderly motorists mentioned earlier; they get in more wrecks than other motorists and they die more often in any given wreck. That won't stop them from driving, but it might resonate in the back of their minds when they have their next fender bender (or the next time they hit a building).

gcottay

In my limited experience it's a only a thorough attempt to break the person/car connection. Not all interventions succeed but the failure rate is much higher than zero. Given the deadly risks of impaired driving (and some drug behaviors) I think the attempt is well worth the time and energy required.

GP

We've had two seniors in our family involuntarily surrender their cars in the past 5 years. It wasn't easy. Both had car vs stationary object accidents they said were hit and runs. We told them we needed to call the police to get reports for the insurance companies. Both backed off and gave up their keys after that. Good luck.

Wut

My grandma just a bought a new car recently and she is around 80. She was recently diagnosed with cancer again and started getting chemo. She is incredibly strong and resilient. She has been thin all her life but for some reason has diabetes. Diabetes can be genetic unfortunately. God I hate that disease. Any way, she did drive herself to her first chemo treatment, but I wonder how long she can keep driving. I find it tough to criticize the elderly as far as wanting to drive, because we are all going to get to that point, and make the decision of when it is time to start taking the bus.

Sixty Fiver

I am wondering how I can have my neighbour's license revoked... she is in her early 60's and is without a doubt, one of the very worst drivers I have ever seen.

ModeratedUser150120149

Actually, things like this, while not easy, are done fairly often. First of all, data, not opinions have to be gathered. If any person is a dangerous driver they can, and should be, reported to law enforcement as soon as you know they are driving. Many communities have signs up now encouraging people to report dangerous drivers. But, you don't need a sign. All you need is a phone and a driver you think is dangerous.

After calling 911(in the US) you just tell the dispatcher that you see a dangerous driver and describe the vehicle and driver and what they are doing that is dangerous. There is a long list of behavior that qualifies. You should be familiar with it. If a LEO is available they will be dispatched to the call.

Or, if you really want to be a good citizen, you can swear out a complaint against the other person. That will detail what the person is doing that is dangerous and when and where they did it. Depending on what you say in the complaint the legal system will take a variety of actions.

BUT, your assertion that a person is "...one of the very worst drivers I have ever seen.", or is too old, or too drunk, or whatever and needs to be taken off the road has to be supported by fact. It cannot be an opinion unless you want to be deeper in the Do-Do that is comfortable.

In today's society, even though the law says driving is a privilege, in fact, it is a necessity for most people due to lack of alternative transportation. When you force someone to not drive you best have your facts straight. Also, you need to take ownership of your actions. This is not a casual, internet conversation thing. It is something serious.

As you can tell taking drivers licenses away is not new to me. I can tell you that for most of society the problem is not having people too active in getting dangerous drivers off the road. It is the opposite. To the extent that I've know people who watched an intoxicated member of their family get in a car and drive away. When asked later, after the DUI arrest, or collision about it the answer went something like this: "Well, I didn't want to make him mad. And besides that is the police's job, not mine." WRONG.

Treating others like humans and taking personal responsibility are the keys for all age groups. If we did that the number of uninsured and/or unlicensed drivers on the roadways would take a big plunge.

B. Carfree

If this is your neighbor when you are in PDX, then you can go to the DMV office and fill out a form asking that the allegedly incompetent motorist be retested. This will may result in her retaking the written, vision and road test. Your report needs to include identifying information and the observed behaviors that make you feel the person is not fit to drive. However, bearing in mind the generally low standard to which we hold motorists in this state, it's not going to be easy to convince anyone that a particular driver is significantly more dangerous than "normal".

Unlike OR, CA requires motorists to regularly retake the written test. While the standard for passing is at the level of a D-student, about half of all licensed motorist fail this simple test. A substantial fraction of them still manage to fail on the second try.

If this is your neighbor north of the U.S. border, then I don't know what you do.

sm1960

I purchase a car for my daughter from a guy selling his grandfathers car. When he couldn't start the car by inserting the key into the air vent they figured it was time to take the keys.

B. Carfree

Please tell me he was kidding you. Please...

ModeratedUser150120149

Resurrected:

When this came by the first time I was bothered by something but couldn't quite put my finger on it. Now I think I know so here is the question:

Does age have anything to do with what a person Should Do about a dangerous driver?

Personally, all the dangerous acts I've seen older drivers do I also seen with younger drivers. In fact, I'd say older drivers get much more attention from their family than young dangerous drivers. Family keeps an eye on the elders and tries to stop them from driving if they perceive the elder is dangerous. On the other hand numerous times a dangerous driver, for example drunk or impaired on other drug, is allowed to drive with no comment by the family.

Seems to me a person should do the same thing for all dangerous drivers; get them off the road.

Worknomore

My new book will be titled "Adventures with Henry" Had to take the keys away from my 89 year old father last year. He found a spare set, cut the head off & jammed the key in the ignition. I retaliated by jacking his truck up on blocks and removing all 4 wheels, then had call every auto shop in town warning them not to come over and get him going. He still will not speak to me other than to call me an *******, even when chauffeuring him around. When I said to him the the kid on a bike he kills might be me he replied "good". I just say back, "love you too dad".

License2Ill

I worked in car rental years ago. One day I was standing outside on the lot(it was also a used car lot) talking to a couple salesmen watching this old couple drive up in an early 80's Tercel. The old man was having trouble pulling into the parking space, so one of the sales guys went up and helped him out. I figured somebody was going to get a sale, and went back into the rental office.

About 10 minutes later the the old lady walked in, with a limp and an eye patch. The old man followed about a few seconds behind, with one of the guys holding the door open for him so that he could keep both hands on his 2 canes. Yes, one for each hand, as he hunched over them with a kink in his neck to see ahead of him. The old lady said they had a reservation for a midsize.

I asked where they were going, for a week. She said they were driving from San Diego to just outside of Reno in the middle of nowhere Nevada to visit their son. Something like a 600 mile drive through the desert. So I asked for her driver's license at which point she turned and screamed to her husband to give me his driver's license. He turned and went "huh?" She yelled again, and eventually he fumbled his wallet out of his pocket while leaning one of his cane's against his other arm. Eventually, she turned and grabbed the cane and then pulled his license out for me to enter in to the computer. To my dismay, it was still good. I didn't really have any excuse to discriminate against the 94 year old man that point.

So to the punchline, I asked her if she had thought about flying. She says "Oh, he gave up his pilot's license years ago." I made a joke about him only being 94 at that point, and the old lady divulged that she was only 88.

Apparently their son's place too far away from the Reno airport to make sense for him to meet them there either. So I asked if she would be driving as well over such a long trip, but nope, she didn't have a license because of her only one good, but bad eye. So we got them out to their rental, but still needed to repark their Tercel on the street. I volunteered as the old man started to move towards it. I get in, and realized the damn thing didn't even have power steering. I was surprised he was driving an automatic at that point.

A week later, to my surprise, they made it back with no scratches on the car, looking about the same as they did before they left. She said they had a great uneventful trip.

Chris516

In my situation, I highly doubt, when the situation finally arrives, that the police in my county, will want to be in any way involved. Around this region, the societal attitude, is that 'alternative transportation' means the person is less than human. So if the relative in my situation wants' to continue driving, I legally cannot stop them. Even if I flattened their tires, instead of taking their keys and told the police about said person's visual impairments, I would still be arrested for vandalism.

spare_wheel

Live a life of the mind, burn 500-2000 calories exercising each day, eat a vegan or mostly vegan diet, and you do not have to be your parents or grandparents.

ModeratedUser150120149

Re: The elders driving across country. In the 50+ section lots of stories about older people and what the can do. Physical ability to ambulate has very little to do with safe driving. That people think it does illustrates the biases and bigotry disabled people have to put up with daily.

Right now on the road between Anchorage and Fairbanks Alaska there are a group of hand cyclists doing a race . Bet they drive too.

Bikepacker67

Had a great grandfather that we had to have a "family meeting" about. And this goes back a while - must have been around 1986.
After causing two accidents in the matter of 3 days (one of which had the potential for serious injury), it really shouldn't have been an argument.

But this was a 90 year old Sicilian - with all his wits about him - who had just planted his 80th garden, by hand, by himself (ok.. with a largely useless G-G son) - but his eyes were failing.

They could still cry though. And they did, when he finally came to realize his driving days were over.