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Drivetrain maintenance on tour

Old 08-30-16, 03:51 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
Not disagreeing with the last part of this (truncated) quote. However, unless you can show that there's a different distribution of particle sizes across the oil distributed over the surface of the chain, your arguments on particle size and composition are irrelevant. My strong suspicion is that the particle composition and size distribution are effectively uniform. Ergo, the more oily lubricant you wipe off, the more particles you'll remove. Of what's left on the chain (in the valleys around the outer plates and pins), you'd have to show that (a) there's more grit in that than was wiped off, and (b) all of that grit eventually works its way into the innards of the chain, to prove that as much gets into the chain as you wipe away.


Good luck.
You are mistaken about the size distribution being uniform. There is nothing in nature that is sorting the particle size where we typically ride. Water does some sorting but it usually brings in as much of the small particles as it takes away. Wind sorts a bit but it moves smaller particles more than larger particles and would deposit the smaller particles into the similar places and ways as water would. There are some soils that have a higher percentage of particle larger than 100µm (twice the diameter of a human hair and easily seen) but even those soils have a significant percentage of smaller particles. Gravel, for example, has a large percentage of particles much larger than 100µm but there's still a lot of smaller particles between the larger one.

Wiping the chain squeegees off the large particles but the large particles aren't what do the damage. They sit on the surface of the chain and would never get inside. Nor would they be carried by the oil. They are just too large.

The small particles, on the other hand, have a different dynamic. When you wipe the chain, some of the small particles are going to be squeegeed off the chain but they are just as likely to do the same as the oil and get squeegeed back into the chain. The way to think of it is like grouting tile. You spread the grout all over the tile and then wipe off the excess. Part of the grout comes off during the wipe but most of the grout gets shoved into the spaces between the tile.
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Old 08-30-16, 10:23 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
...I argue that it is better not to collect the dirt in the first place. I don't wipe off my chains at all because they don't need it. My chains last as long as others claim their do with wiping or weekly cleaning or shaking chicken bones over them. I just don't spend as much time obsessing over how to clean up the mess that results in using oil....
Originally Posted by cyccommute
...Wiping the chain squeegees off the large particles but the large particles aren't what do the damage. They sit on the surface of the chain and would never get inside. Nor would they be carried by the oil. They are just too large....
ok....well......if wipe the chain before lubing, assuming periodic lubrication is necessary,
big stuff and xx% little stuff gets wiped off. x% little stuff may be forced into the nooks
and crannies by squeezie and added lube, but won't some of that be washed out by the
lube as well, so it could be....uh...a wash?

so wiping doesn't affect chain life in your experience. it doesn't help, but then
it also doesn't hurt......the chain. but what's all that big stuff doing to your pulleys and
cogs and chainrings? sure, your chains don't pick up dirt and crud, others not so lucky.

removal and soaking and boiling and waxing and scrubbing and lubing and shaking chicken
bones? how about just once a week (or every 300-500km), wipe off the visible crud, add
a drop of lube to each roller, work into the bearings, wipe off excess. 3-5 minutes.
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Old 08-30-16, 11:07 PM
  #53  
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<yawn> Yet another one.

I thought the matter at hand was the gunk that collects on the jockey wheels and rear derailleur, and the chainrings. Irrespective of the oil-based lube... here's a thought -- just scrape the crap off with a flat-head screwdriver on your multitool. Or a knife. You don't even have to remove the chain.

It's not something that I would sweat on every day I ride on tour. Maybe once a month, or much longer, depending on the conditions.

Personally, I would just continue oiling the chain (with TriFlow in my case) as it dries out, then scrape off the deposited gunk on rings and derailleur as needed.

I think the most I have got out of a chain was 11,000km with oil-based lubes. Yeah, the chainrings (double) were probably shot along with cassette, but I sold the bike and it wasn't my worry by then. Actually, there was no chain skip on the lesser used chainring or rear cogs, so things must have still be viable.
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Old 08-31-16, 03:36 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
See your doing it all wrong. Let's say you are on tour and your chain gets some grit on it, what are you to do wipe it in, try to wash it out, leave it on? Your are probably going to be wrong in every one of those instances. What if you use the wrong lube? What if you use the right lube but don't it properly? Your best bet is to get rid of that gritty chain and replace it right away without fail.

A strange if not expensive solution when the obvious answer to this problem is to use a lube which does not attract grit in the first place. My post up thread advocates a lube which attracts no grit at all but which lubes the chain perfectly.
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Old 08-31-16, 09:06 AM
  #55  
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I wonder what loggers use for their chainsaws? VEGETABLE OIL FOR LUBRICATING CHAIN SAWS
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Old 08-31-16, 10:24 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
I wonder what loggers use for their chainsaws?
spotted owls. they're organic!
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Old 08-31-16, 10:50 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
I wonder what loggers use for their chainsaws? VEGETABLE OIL FOR LUBRICATING CHAIN SAWS


I refuse to believe that Loggers have any use for vegetables at all....they're far too manly.

They may dress up in women's clothing that's true.
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Old 08-31-16, 12:33 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
You are mistaken about the size distribution being uniform. There is nothing in nature that is sorting the particle size where we typically ride.

I'm not sure if your misunderstanding was deliberate or my fault. Perhaps I should have said, " My strong suspicion is that the particle composition and size distribution are effectively uniform across the oil distributed on the faces of the chain, although of course the size distribution is probably log-normal." Does that clear things up?


Regardless, I expect a touring cyclist is going to ride through some rain (and perhaps camp out in more rain), and that's enough to tilt my preference to an oil lube. Riding through mud, dust, or just on dirty roads is a good reason to wipe the chain off, IME. Those waxy lubricants that supposedly don't attract dust (but still turn black on the chain, how's that work?) are champs at building up gunk on the idler pulleys of a derailer.
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Old 08-31-16, 05:08 PM
  #59  
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All this consternation as to "wiping a chain", "don't wipe a chain", heck, I just pay up a little more and generally buy a self cleaning chain and am done with it.
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Old 08-31-16, 06:11 PM
  #60  
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I generally do not attempt to clean a chain while touring, instead put on some more oil based lube when my drive train gets noisy. Nothing I have seen in this lengthy discussion has convinced me that I should have done anything differently instead of:

Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
..., a local bike charity had some cheap KMC chains for $5 that it received as donations from a major bike manufacturer. When I got back from Iceland I decided to not clean my chain since I could put a replacement chain on the bike for only $5. It was not worth my time to put a lot of effort into the chain for that small cost....
And when I get home from my next tour, I plan to again just discard the dirty chain and put on another new $5 chain and be done with it.
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Old 09-01-16, 08:39 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores
ok....well......if wipe the chain before lubing, assuming periodic lubrication is necessary,
big stuff and xx% little stuff gets wiped off. x% little stuff may be forced into the nooks
and crannies by squeezie and added lube, but won't some of that be washed out by the
lube as well, so it could be....uh...a wash?
When you add lubricant, how much excess do you use? Do you add it until it drips off in several times the volume the chain can hold or, like most people, do you stop far short of the dripping stage? The smaller particles that are forced...or work their way... into the gaps of the chain won't be washed out unless you use sufficient volume to actually wash them out.

You have to also consider the action you use to apply lubricant. You drip it on to each link and rotate the chain through the drivetrain in the hopes that the fluid flows down through the chain. But as you apply the fluid (of any kind), it flows down through the chain until the chain is turned around on the chainrings and the top of the chain is now the bottom. The oil and grit are churned up and down. The whole system is very well mixed so that any "fresh" lubricant is quickly contaminated.

Back in the bad old days when I used oil based lubes, the chain would be "crunchy" even after complete removal of the lubricant with mineral spirits. Some of that is from the grit that is washed into the "tank" during agitation but some of it was material that was trapped inside the chain. If mineral spirits that completely remove all traces of lubricant can't get the grit out .

Originally Posted by saddlesores
so wiping doesn't affect chain life in your experience. it doesn't help, but then
it also doesn't hurt......the chain. but what's all that big stuff doing to your pulleys and
cogs and chainrings? sure, your chains don't pick up dirt and crud, others not so lucky.
What everyone misses in these discussions is my main point. I don't wipe my chain because I don't have to. It is a completely unnecessary step. It's not because I am "lucky", it's because I use a product that doesn't need it. All that "big stuff" isn't doing anything to my pulleys, cogs and chainrings because it has no vehicle for sticking to the drivetrain to do anything to my pulleys, cogs and chainrings.

Look at my pictures again. Those are pictures of a bicycle drivetrain that has not been specially cleaned. The drivetrain wasn't "wiped" at any point from the time it was installed to the time that it was removed. The last picture of my hand was what my drivetrain typically looks like and, while the chain is on a different bike, it's the same chain that I used to do a spring ride around Lake Erie with about half of 1500 miles done on dirt that ranged from bone dry to partly muddy and all the different weather events that you might expect in the course of 5 weeks. Then the chain was used for another 2000 miles during a particularly wet and cold Colorado summer.

Originally Posted by saddlesores
removal and soaking and boiling and waxing and scrubbing and lubing and shaking chicken
bones? how about just once a week (or every 300-500km), wipe off the visible crud, add
a drop of lube to each roller, work into the bearings, wipe off excess. 3-5 minutes.
Again, my point is that you don't need to do all that. I don't have to wipe off the visible crud (and force it into the chain) because there isn't any crud. I add a drop of lube to each roller...about every 800 to 1100 km or as needed... and ride.

Why use a product that requires constant wiping and cleaning and maintenance but still leaves the drivetrain too filthy to touch?

Originally Posted by pdlamb
I'm not sure if your misunderstanding was deliberate or my fault. Perhaps I should have said, " My strong suspicion is that the particle composition and size distribution are effectively uniform across the oil distributed on the faces of the chain, although of course the size distribution is probably log-normal." Does that clear things up?
No. It doesn't clear it up. The size distribution and particle composition aren't going to be uniform across the oil distributed on the face of the chain at all. You will probably have a distribution of sizes on the face of the chain that range from almost pebble size to nano particle size. The distribution isn't even going to be Gausian because what is thrown at the chain and what sticks to it is going to be random.

Once the particles mix with the oil and start moving into the chain, the size distribution is going to be reduced drastically but, again, it's going to be a random distribution and depend on the soil you are riding over. You can't predict what size will get into the chain other than to say that it will be below a certain size.

Originally Posted by pdlamb
Regardless, I expect a touring cyclist is going to ride through some rain (and perhaps camp out in more rain), and that's enough to tilt my preference to an oil lube. Riding through mud, dust, or just on dirty roads is a good reason to wipe the chain off, IME. Those waxy lubricants that supposedly don't attract dust (but still turn black on the chain, how's that work?) are champs at building up gunk on the idler pulleys of a derailer.
Are you assuming that I never ride in rain? Or that I never camp in rain? Here's some evidence that I do both:





I haven't used anything but White Lightning since it was introduced (around 2000?). In all three of those pictures, White Lightning is in use. I may have refreshed it after the rain was over but I doubt that many oil users wouldn't refresh as well.

As for the "chain becoming black" do these look "black"? If you look closely, you'll notice that the chains are not only not black, they haven't been cleaned prior to the picture being taken. My chains are all this clean all the time.






As for build up, people over apply White Lightning because the manufacturer tells them too...applying every 50 to 100 miles isn't necessary...and because they aren't used to the slightly louder noise that the chain makes. You can see no deposits on this jockey pulley can you?



And it's not like oil doesn't cause build up on the jockey pulleys as well. gauvins original post was about gunk accumulated on the jockey pulley:

Originally Posted by gauvins
We toured all summer, wiping/lubricating the chains regularly. As I now prep the bikes for transit, I am surprised by the amount of gunk accumulated between the RD jockey wheels (on the side facing the spokes), and in the cassettes, between the cogs.

What maintenance routine do you suggest? (what to do, at what intervals, using what consumables).
Finally, my whole approach to bicycle riding...and especially bicycle touring...has been to make things as maintenance free as possible. I've replaced every bearing with a cartridge bearing that requires no maintenance for years at a time. Derailers require very little maintenance. It just makes sense to me to use a lubricant that requires no maintenance as well, especially when you consider that my drivetrain lasts just as long as one that is a constant maintenance headache.
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Old 09-01-16, 08:55 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
[...]
I haven't used anything but White Lightning since it was introduced (around 2000?).
And that would be the "Clean Ride"?

Can you give us an idea about the amount of lube required (ex: a 4oz bottle is enough for X miles/kilometers, YMMV)
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Old 09-01-16, 11:05 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by gauvins
And that would be the "Clean Ride"?

Can you give us an idea about the amount of lube required (ex: a 4oz bottle is enough for X miles/kilometers, YMMV)
Yes, that's the Clean Ride. I've tried some of their other products but was never found an advantage to them over the original.

As for amount of lubricant required, that's harder to say. I don't really keep track and I have multiple bottles stashed in various places. I have one at work, one out in the garage, one inside the house and one with my tool kit. The ones at work and in the house are for winter use since it's not easy to put the stuff on when the chain in cold.

That said, I use 10 ml or 0.3 fluid oz (maybe) per application. That's 10 to 12 applications per 4 oz bottle and I get about 600 miles per application. 8000 miles, maybe? That seems reasonable considering that I carry around a 2 oz bottle (Helmart was selling them and that's a really nice size for a tool kit) and it was full when I did my tour last spring and it's about half full now. I only applied it 3 times on a 1500 mile trip.
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Old 09-01-16, 11:59 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Are you assuming that I never ride in rain?
Hey, it's not an unreasonable assumption when you argue in favor of dry lubes while showing pics of a white bike with no fenders.

I may have refreshed it after the rain was over but I doubt that many oil users wouldn't refresh as well.
Depends on how bad the rain is and how long it pours for. If it's pouring all day, then yeah, the lube is probably wearing thin. I certainly don't check my drivetrain after every raincloud, though.
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Old 09-01-16, 04:07 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores
chains are consumables. consume them.
This. Anyone who puts a whole lot of time and thought into this is kinda wasting their time and effort IMHO. I really just wipe things regularly because I just like clean(ish) things. Chains really aren't that expensive or difficult to replace after all.



Originally Posted by Happy Feet
I wonder what loggers use for their chainsaws? VEGETABLE OIL FOR LUBRICATING CHAIN SAWS

We recycled old motor oil as bar oil when I used to work on a field crew that did a *lot* of tree cutting. It arguably puts more wear than 'clean' oil, but like with bicycles, chains etc. are consumable products and aren't meant to last forever anyway. That and the abuse those saws took was what would kill them, not the less than ideal oil.
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Old 09-01-16, 04:23 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by HTupolev
Hey, it's not an unreasonable assumption when you argue in favor of dry lubes while showing pics of a white bike with no fenders.
I clearly stated the area where I was riding that white bike without fenders. Not exactly the dry southwest.

As for not using fenders that's a personal choice. I don't use them for various reasons, not the least of which is that I find them to be entirely ineffective. But that is a different discussion.


Originally Posted by HTupolev
Depends on how bad the rain is and how long it pours for. If it's pouring all day, then yeah, the lube is probably wearing thin. I certainly don't check my drivetrain after every raincloud, though.
What makes you think I need to check my drivetrain after every rain cloud? I've been using wax lube for a very long time in a whole lot of different conditions and have found that it doesn't need to be refreshed as often as some people seem to think. It stands up to some severe drenchings and is still effective. The material is hydrophobic like oil so it doesn't really wash off.
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Old 09-01-16, 06:46 PM
  #67  
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Lots of good info here, I'm sure. At the risk of exposing my stupidity, my method is a mixture of 3 oil lubes. I couldn't decide which one so I compromised with 3in1 oil, Finish Line Wet Lube, and Pro Link. When on tour or I happen to notice the chain is looking dry before a training ride, I put one drop on each link. And then, get this, I don't wipe it off!!! I just ride. Ok, sometimes I wipe a little bit, but I don't feel good about it. Periodically, I spray off the entire bike at the car wash, but I don't hit the hubs or BB much, mostly hitting everything from an angle perpendicular to the axle. High pressure soapy on the cassette, chain and chainrings while rotating the crankset. If I feel obsessive compulsive I follow up a drip dry with WD-40 (WD stands for water displacement, right?), but finish with something oily and slippery.

One of those Chain Lubes might dissolve the carpet in the floor of a pickup truck. Don't ask me how I know this.

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Old 09-01-16, 07:15 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa
my method is a mixture of 3 oil lubes. I compromised with 3in1 oil, Finish Line Wet Lube, and Pro Link.
Well done, I like home brews, but consider adding the eye of a newt for even greater efficacy.
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Old 09-02-16, 12:38 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I generally do not attempt to clean a chain while touring, instead put on some more oil based lube when my drive train gets noisy. Nothing I have seen in this lengthy discussion has convinced me that I should have done anything differently instead of:



And when I get home from my next tour, I plan to again just discard the dirty chain and put on another new $5 chain and be done with it.
This simplicity is wonderful.

But somehow we need to give this a prod with another stick just to keep it kicking along... again... and again... and again.
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Old 09-02-16, 12:44 AM
  #70  
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How about that!! A manufacturer actuallly has got it all wrong in its instructions on how to use its products. Really, White Lightning, fancy ripping off all those customers by reducing the application intervals so much.
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Old 09-02-16, 08:19 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Rowan
How about that!! A manufacturer actuallly has got it all wrong in its instructions on how to use its products. Really, White Lightning, fancy ripping off all those customers by reducing the application intervals so much.
Do you "lather, rinse, repeat"? Johnson and Johnson thanks you for your business

I'm not sure that the application interval is necessarily "ripping off the customer". They may believe that the application interval needs to be that frequent and just may never have measured it. I don't think there has been a whole lot of research of any kind on chains and chain lubrication. It's mostly anecdotal...even my infrequency of application.

It may also be a case of people are unfamiliar with the product and follow instructions more than they would with oil based lubricants. If you told people that they needed to apply oil every 100 miles, they would laugh you out of the business.

On a side note I did find these two chestnuts from Rock "n" Roll"

The formulation goes deep down into the chain and traps any dirt. Then, with the energy of the chain freewheeling backwards, the dirt and grit floats to the surface so you can wipe it all off, leaving a new and clean application of lube inside the chain, where it’s needed.
They seem to think that dirt and grit only flows one way. And are you supposed to turn the pedals backwards periodically so as to "float the dirt" to the surface? If you don't turn the chain backwards does the dirt and grit just keep packing into the chain until the chain can't move? And why would a material that has a density of 2.4g/ml "float" on top of a material that has a density of 0.9g/ml? Did they suspend the rules of physics and chemistry? The oil does have higher viscosity than water so the particles of grit don't settle out as quickly as they would in water but they won't "float" and leave "a new and clean application of lube" in the chain.

Bicycles, being on rubber tires, are not grounded, making the bicycle a static electricity machine. As the bicycle rolls along, positive charge build up will bring dirt and dust particles from the road onto the bike. The bike will discharge and do it all over again, bring up more dirt.
Have these guys never heard of Occam's Razor? Static? Really? A simpler and more likely explanation would be that a bicycle isn't not a closed system and the tires pick up stuff and throw it into the air where it deposits on the chain. This is nerd comedy gold!
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Old 09-02-16, 05:47 PM
  #72  
Rowan
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Succesfully prodded. Now, what else can I find to keep this thread from dying?
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Old 09-02-16, 05:50 PM
  #73  
Rowan
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And I am really sorry, Stuart, but despite your extended arguments on all these threads, nothing you have said is convincing me to change my chain lube strategies.

I really doubt they are changing anyone else's, either (based on the fact that I have not seen a single post which says "I followed cyccommute's advice and wow! He's right! I am never going back to an oil based lube ever again").

I have, however, read quite a few posts where White Lightning and its ilk haven't done an adequate job.
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