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Are Robert Axle Project thru axles great, or are Cervélo's bad? Probably both.

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Are Robert Axle Project thru axles great, or are Cervélo's bad? Probably both.

Old 11-11-19, 08:58 PM
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CarloM
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Are Robert Axle Project thru axles great, or are Cervélo's bad? Probably both.

TL;DR - I bought a Robert Axle Project thru axle for the front wheel of my Cervélo S3 looking to get rid of annoying finicky tightening process of stock S3 thru axles. What it did was fix [virtually] all of my brake rub problems.

Background
I've owned a 2018 Cervelo S3 SRAM eTap HRD for a couple of months. I got it on half-off clearance (and store paid tax) and have been very happy with the bike except for two very annoying things.

  1. Front brake rub - I would dial it in and follow all of the recommended procedures to align the pad and rotors. Even when I got it "just right" if I rode the bike hard into turns, or hit potholes hard, or got off the saddle to put some serious power down and the bike flexed left/right with the effort, a slight (or sometimes more than slight) rub would emerge. Eventually the rub would clear up, maybe after a few seconds or so. But it was always annoying and it happens every ride that I do any of those above things. I chalked it up to "SRAM tolerance issues" that Hambini is always ranting and railing against .
  2. The really finicky way the thru axle tightens. I don't have the R.A.T. thru axle, just Cervélo's standard threaded thru axle. But it has this weird notch in the ring where, when you want to loosen or tighten it, you have to open the lever and rest it inside that notch. Otherwise you can just spin and spin the lever and it won't move. But that's not the finicky part. The finicky part is if you tighten it ever so slightly too much or too little, I'm talking less than 5 degrees difference, I got brake rub. I would have to get it in the exact same spot every time.
It was really #2 that I was hoping to address with the Robert Axle Project (RAP) thru axle. I just wanted something that hopefully wasn't finicky. I was willing to take a $42 chance on it because Amazon has a generous return policy. I knew it was lighter and stiffer, but those were secondary benefits (or so I thought, particularly with regards to TA stiffness...I thought any difference would be negligible to a rider). If I could just get it to attach in a straightforward manner and reduce the finicky-ness of the process, then it was a win.

What I ended up getting was so much more.

Installation
Upon first install, I had my trusty torque wrench out. Yes, a downside is that you'll need to use a 6mm Allen wrench to remove the RAP. I always ride with a multi-purpose tool so it's not a big deal. But given how finicky my front fork and wheel has been, I figured I'd have to get it at exactly the recommended tightness to prevent rub.

To my surprise, as I was tightening it, I was spinning the wheel. Once it began to get engaged, but still nowhere near the recommended torque setting, there was no rotor rub as I turned the wheel. Speaking of recommended torque setting, when I read on the RAP itself that it was 12Nm, I began to get worried. On my Giant TCR the recommended torque setting is 5.5Nm. Surely 12Nm would be too tight and I'd get rub. Turns out: no rub even at 12Nm. Didn't even have to re-align the pads like I'd been fearing.

But that's only the beginning of the story.

First Ride
Recall issue #1 I described above? Well as any good cyclist does when they put on a new component...I test rode it. I planned to only ride around the block a few times, as I'd done my normal daily ride this morning. Not a hint of rub going around the block. Suddenly I got curious. I left the saddle and stomped the pedals, bike swaying side to side with effort. No rub. So I went up my normal sprint route with a corner that I like to take tightly. No rub. Rode up to a local enormous parking lot which was empty due to the holiday and rode as hard as I could and turned as hard to the left and right as I dared at high speed and effort. No rub. I ended up riding over a half hour and was drenched with sweat from trying to make the rotor rub doing "the usual things that made it rub."

Nothing.

I was seriously amazed. I rode to my LBS and talked to the tech about it (they didn't sell me the Cervélo but they used to carry the brand until a couple of years ago). I told him what had happened and asked why he thought the RAP may have eliminated my rotor rub. He said perhaps the RAP was significantly stiffer than the stock TA, which may have flexed under load which then led the rotor rub under those conditions I described.

I rode home (again, riding hard, cornering hard, etc.) really disbelieving what I was experiencing. I couldn't get it to rub. Suddenly, it went from a great bike with a couple of little annoying niggles, to a near-perfect bike. I immediately got home and ordered the rear RAP TA. I don't have any rotor rub issues in the back, but I figured I wanted to support a company that makes an excellent product, so if all I get is weight-savings, then that's good enough for me.

Speaking of weight savings:

Stock Cervélo TA



Robert Axle Project TA


What it looks like installed. Aero bike now more aero without the TA lever. That's gotta translate to 0.278 seconds in savings over 50 miles at 30mph average.
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Old 11-11-19, 10:02 PM
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I have a 2019 R3, and quickly realized how terrible the RAT axels are, and replaced them with the RAP axels, as well. They definitely made a big difference. Not nearly as finicky to install, and eliminated most of the brake rub (I still get some when climbing out of the saddle, but that's to be expected). Very much worth the $$

Torque wise, I've found that I get nearly constant brake rub if they are not torqued properly. I've gotten a flat of a couple of rides recently, and after replacing the tube it was rub-city the rest of the ride. But, once I got home and torqued them properly, it went away
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Old 11-12-19, 11:01 AM
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I'll have to keep an eye on that, to see if I'm not up to 12Nm if I get rub.

Brief update: I did go on a 15 minute ride this morning before work. I pushed it hard again, getting off the saddle and stomping hard (for me) and even slightly exaggerating the side-to-side sway while doing it (the bike would get maybe 30-40 degrees off of vertical, to the left and right with each stomp). I think I could detect just the faintest bit of rotor rub if I pushed it to the max and had the bike at that extreme 30-40 degree off-vertical angle. But in truth I never ride like that, so it's not a typical use case for me. When I did everything I normally do on a ride, no rub whatsoever.

Maybe there's a slight difference in fork stiffness between the S3 and R3? Or maybe you just put down more power than me? Who knows, but I'm glad that on day two my initial impressions seem to have held up. If anything changes drastically I'll update this thread. Meanwhile I've ordered the rear RAP TA for my S3, and I'm replacing the Giant TCR ones as well. I haven't had rub issues on the TCR, but that's my "semi-weight weenie" bike. I don't have the cash to get it near or below UCI weight limit. If I put Cadex wheels on it, went tubular, and upgraded to Dura-Ace Di2 I could get it to the limit. Currently it's 7.37 kg with pedals, set up tubeless, and at minimum with the RAPs I'll get a 60g savings even if I don't realize a ride benefit like I did on the S3.

In all seriousness I simply want to show my support for a company that makes a terrific product which fixed a problem I had previously thought was just "SRAM tolerance issues". The fact that they design and make their products stateside is admirable. The 60g is just icing.

Also this time I'm ordering direct from RAP so hopefully more of my money will go directly to the company vs. my initial purchase from Amazon (which was a bike shop reseller on Amazon, so RAP got their usual bike shop purchase revenue). I do the same with bands I like, buy direct from their merch stands in concerts so they get more of the money (I tend to support smaller acts).
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Old 11-12-19, 02:50 PM
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I only experience it on short, steep climbs when I'm putting out 400+ watts, and am really over the front end. Upgrading my wheels from Hunt to Roval CLX's did help to minimize it even further, and it's to the point that I'm not worried about it. On flat ground, I very rarely get any rubbing no matter what kind of power I putting down.

Converting your rear axel will help, as well. To be honest, the rear end was where I was having the most issues with the RAT axel...extremely difficult to get set up right, thus causing brake rub and a noisy drive train. I'd recommend ordering an extra rear derailleur while your at it...their axel requires a different one, and its always nice to have a spare ready to go.
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Old 11-12-19, 02:52 PM
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Interesting, I get the same on the C3 - rubbing front brake after or during long descents and hard braking. Usually I just have to tap the brake level slightly a couple of times for it to go away (without the pads even touching the rotor), so I chalked it up to heat causing one of the pistons to stick slightly, perhaps due to dirt. I'm going to have to try one of these axles. The brakes I have are Shimano R8000 with SM-RT800 160mm rotors.
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Old 11-12-19, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by melikebikey35
I only experience it on short, steep climbs when I'm putting out 400+ watts, and am really over the front end. Upgrading my wheels from Hunt to Roval CLX's did help to minimize it even further, and it's to the point that I'm not worried about it. On flat ground, I very rarely get any rubbing no matter what kind of power I putting down.

Converting your rear axel will help, as well. To be honest, the rear end was where I was having the most issues with the RAT axel...extremely difficult to get set up right, thus causing brake rub and a noisy drive train. I'd recommend ordering an extra rear derailleur while your at it...their axel requires a different one, and its always nice to have a spare ready to go.
Oh, I didn't realize it would require a different one (did you mean rear derailleur hanger or the whole derailleur?)...I don't have the R.A.T. thru axles on my Cervélo, just the standard threaded rear thru axle. I was under the impression it would be an easy swap. We'll find out on Friday when they hopefully arrive.

Originally Posted by sfrider
Interesting, I get the same on the C3 - rubbing front brake after or during long descents and hard braking. Usually I just have to tap the brake level slightly a couple of times for it to go away (without the pads even touching the rotor), so I chalked it up to heat causing one of the pistons to stick slightly, perhaps due to dirt. I'm going to have to try one of these axles. The brakes I have are Shimano R8000 with SM-RT800 160mm rotors.
Yeah tapping the brake sometimes helped, but often it would just go away on its own within maybe a few seconds or so. But it was annoying enough to hear/feel with on a near constant basis. I had gotten so used to it I didn't realize how much it annoyed me until I now no longer have to deal with it. I'm actually obsessing about getting on the bike again once I get home from work!
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Old 11-12-19, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sfrider
Interesting, I get the same on the C3 - rubbing front brake after or during long descents and hard braking. Usually I just have to tap the brake level slightly a couple of times for it to go away (without the pads even touching the rotor), so I chalked it up to heat causing one of the pistons to stick slightly, perhaps due to dirt. I'm going to have to try one of these axles. The brakes I have are Shimano R8000 with SM-RT800 160mm rotors.
I experience the same thing...it's caused from heat build up in the fluid/pistons/rotor. Everything expands, but returns back to normal once cooled. The Robert axels help to minimize it some, but it does still occur

Originally Posted by CarloM
Oh, I didn't realize it would require a different one (did you mean rear derailleur hanger or the whole derailleur?)...I don't have the R.A.T. thru axles on my Cervélo, just the standard threaded rear thru axle. I was under the impression it would be an easy swap. We'll find out on Friday when they hopefully arrive.


Yeah tapping the brake sometimes helped, but often it would just go away on its own within maybe a few seconds or so. But it was annoying enough to hear/feel with on a near constant basis. I had gotten so used to it I didn't realize how much it annoyed me until I now no longer have to deal with it. I'm actually obsessing about getting on the bike again once I get home from work!
Yes, hanger...that would be terrible if you need a whole new derailleur haha.

Ok, I thought you had the RAT axels. If not, your normal hanger will work just fine. Their website is very good at telling you what exactly you need, so if it didn't list it, or good to go
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Old 11-12-19, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by melikebikey35
I experience the same thing...it's caused from heat build up in the fluid/pistons/rotor. Everything expands, but returns back to normal once cooled. The Robert axels help to minimize it some, but it does still occur
Now that I think of it, I think the very times I did hear/feel rub with the RAP TAs it was likely right after a lot of braking. So this makes a lot of sense. This is still a huge improvement over the previous situation where I'd hear/feel it basically every time I pushed the bike hard in just about any manner.

Good to hear about me not needing a new derailleur hanger, though if I did I would definitely have followed your advice and purchased several. I'm very much looking forward to getting the other 3 RAP TAs. Even if on the TCR and rear wheel of the S3 I don't feel a huge difference like I did on the front wheel of the S3, they just look much cleaner without the lever sticking out. Given how sleek modern aero and racing/road bikes look, that lever always looked aesthetically out of place.
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Old 11-12-19, 05:31 PM
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Win/win for the win!
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Old 11-12-19, 05:44 PM
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I had the RAT de-thread mid ride on my Focus. Completely fkd my rear wheel, rear hangar, disc and chain. Expensive lesson to learn that i should have gone a RAP to start with.
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Old 11-12-19, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by illdrag0n
I had the RAT de-thread mid ride on my Focus. Completely fkd my rear wheel, rear hangar, disc and chain. Expensive lesson to learn that i should have gone a RAP to start with.
Same thing happened to me the first ride on my R3. The nut came loose and caused my rear derailleur to swing forward and jam. Luckily the damage wasn't has bad as yours, but I definitely wasn't happy about it.
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Old 11-12-19, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by melikebikey35
Same thing happened to me the first ride on my R3. The nut came loose and caused my rear derailleur to swing forward and jam. Luckily the damage wasn't has bad as yours, but I definitely wasn't happy about it.
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Old 11-12-19, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by illdrag0n
Ouch...

Mine was just a scratched derailleur cage, and chain stay...I'd be livid if that happed. RAT axels really are a terrible thing
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Old 11-12-19, 11:01 PM
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I never heard about the R.A.T. TAs before buying a Cervelo, and now I'm very glad that mine didn't come with them.
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Old 11-12-19, 11:08 PM
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i find axle with build-in arm very hard to use, you are never sure how tight you are tighten it. With hex key axle, i set it to 10Nm and forget it. Rotor always end up in the same place without fail. Easy days. You do have to carry a 6mm allen key on your rides
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Old 11-12-19, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Chi_Z
i find axle with build-in arm very hard to use, you are never sure how tight you are tighten it. With hex key axle, i set it to 10Nm and forget it. Rotor always end up in the same place without fail. Easy days
Agreed. The TA on my TCR is the "next best thing" in that it does have the arm (though it's fixed at a 90 degree angle, it doesn't swing or pivot, it's more like a handle) but it also has a hex key in it and it says to tighten to 5.5Nm. I have a handy 5Nm preset torque wrench so it makes attaching that way easier than the Cervelo.

I did just send an inquiry to RAP, since my TCR TAs are on the way. Since the TCR says 5.5Nm on their stock TA, I wanted to ensure that it's still fine to go the full 12Nm which I assume the RAPs will recommend.
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Old 11-13-19, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by CarloM
I'll have to keep an eye on that, to see if I'm not up to 12Nm if I get rub.

.
How hard is to get to 12Nm with a minitool if on the road? I'd think you'd need a standard length L-shaped to get there.

Of course for most, carrying a torque wrench with 12nm setting is likely a no-go?
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Old 11-13-19, 09:25 AM
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I have a Silca seat roll that I keep my tools in, and for this I will carry a standard 6mm Allen wrench. I keep my iPhone in the roll so it’s able to accommodate the longer length of the full L shaped wrench. Hopefully I won’t have to find out anytime soon (knock on wood but I have yet to have to remove my wheel on the road, it’s always been at home) but at some point I’m sure I will.

Maybe this weekend when the other axles arrive and I’m installing them I’ll test just hand tightening the RAP with 1) just the multi tool, 2) the dedicated Allen wrench, and 3) my torque wrench and just ride it around my local large empty parking lot to see if I can detect a difference between the three methods.

As I mentioned, with the inferior stock thru axle, if I didn’t get the tightness just right the rotor would rub as I spun the wheel while it was on my stand being installed (usually after a cleaning or tire swap). With the RAP as soon as the thread caught and I tightened it even just a little bit, say 1 to 2 Nm I was spinning the wheel out of curiosity to see how bad the rub was until I got to the recommended setting, and was surprised that it never rubbed from that point until I got to 12Nm.
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Old 11-13-19, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
How hard is to get to 12Nm with a minitool if on the road? I'd think you'd need a standard length L-shaped to get there.

Of course for most, carrying a torque wrench with 12nm setting is likely a no-go?
It's actually very easy to get to 12Nm with a multi-tool...it just takes a few tries to get the feel for it. I'm close enough now, that I shouldn't have any more issues if I get a flat.
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Old 11-13-19, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by melikebikey35
It's actually very easy to get to 12Nm with a multi-tool...it just takes a few tries to get the feel for it. I'm close enough now, that I shouldn't have any more issues if I get a flat.
What he said... I used to use a preset 12nm 6mm torque key (small enough for the saddle bag or backpack) but have since used muscle memory to get it where i need with the multi tool. The other thing with the RAP is you can see the axle in the bolt on the other side, so just get an eye for how many threads you should see left over
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Old 11-13-19, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by illdrag0n
What he said... I used to use a preset 12nm 6mm torque key (small enough for the saddle bag or backpack)
Link? Might be useful for our forum's readers.
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Old 11-13-19, 06:46 PM
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Okay, so I'm getting ready to order a new new bike here pretty soon. I want disc brakes, which I've never had. Probably getting Di2 Ultegra. Trying to make sense of this thread as someone new to disc brakes and potentially new to Cervelo, are we saying I should not get disc brakes? Not get a Cervelo? What does this all mean?
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Old 11-13-19, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist
Okay, so I'm getting ready to order a new new bike here pretty soon. I want disc brakes, which I've never had. Probably getting Di2 Ultegra. Trying to make sense of this thread as someone new to disc brakes and potentially new to Cervelo, are we saying I should not get disc brakes? Not get a Cervelo? What does this all mean?
Definitely get disc brakes. I really like my R3, so I recommend Cervelo (also recommend going with Di2)...just be sure to replace the axels. They are idiotic
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Old 11-13-19, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist
Okay, so I'm getting ready to order a new new bike here pretty soon. I want disc brakes, which I've never had. Probably getting Di2 Ultegra. Trying to make sense of this thread as someone new to disc brakes and potentially new to Cervelo, are we saying I should not get disc brakes? Not get a Cervelo? What does this all mean?
Talk about a can of worms!

Here's a nutshell of the arguments, and full disclosure, I have discs on all of my bikes so I definitely have a bias/preference.
  • In general, historically, disc specific frames weigh more than rim brake frames. This is starting to change, as manufacturers have gotten better at creating road bike disc frames because it's the way of the future. Take Canyon's new Ultimate CF EVO, the rim brake is 6.00kg and the disc version is 5.99kg. I would say starting with current frames and going forward, the weight issue will be largely a non-issue save for those who will really be able to tell a 30-50g difference.
  • In general, historically, it was said that disc brakes are less aero. But like the weight issue, manufacturers are now making shapes that incorporate the disc concept into the overall aero design and some makers are starting to claim that their disc bikes are "as aero" or even "slightly more aero" than their rim counterparts. Again, for 99.5% of us riders, we won't tell the difference between 1-2 watts of aero savings or cost.
  • For those who prefer rim brakes, they say "they stop just as well" as disc, or "they're good enough and have been for many years". To me that second one's not a good argument, because fixies were good enough for many years. Then 10 speed. Then 11 speed. The big ring/small ring. Etc. Time marches on and technology progresses. Here's something I have yet to hear (with proof) "rim brakes stop better than disc brakes".
  • It's generally acknowledged that disc brakes perform better in wet weather/less than ideal conditions.
  • It's generally acknowledged that if you are into expensive carbon wheels, having rim tracks on those expensive wheels will wear them down/out. And rim tracks on carbon wheels and wet weather = dicey braking.
  • At worst, disc brakes and rim brakes stop "equally" in good conditions. Although personally when I've tested rim brake bikes (on expensive models), I've preferred the feel of disc brakes. Admittedly that's personal preference. Go out and try both yourself and see how they feel. At best, many acknowledge that disc brakes can be superior even in the best of conditions, although this margin of improvement is smaller compared to inclement weather conditions, where the margin grows much wider.
  • Disc brakes require more complex maintenance. True. You never have to bleed rim brakes. I've only been cycling on discs for 5 months so I haven't had to bleed any of my systems. Some say brakes should be bled every 1-2 years (with regards to DOT oil systems like SRAM). Others say many more years, unless you introduce air into the system, for mineral oil systems like Shimano (i.e 5 years?). I think the jury's still out on this.
  • Disc braking systems also have different feel. I happen to own Tektro 160s (Trek), Shimano Ultegra (TCR) and SRAM eTap HRD (Cervelo) and all 3 feel different. The Shimano has the most progressive feel, like a car brake, first half squeeze is only a small percent of the power, and then progressively over the last half of the brake lever travel the brake power ramps up. The SRAM is most "bite-y". It doesn't take much to engage the full stopping power of the brake. The Tektro is in between, but closer to the SRAM than the Shimano in feel. All are hydraulic systems. I've never ridden a mechanical disc brake system.
  • Cost of parts maintenance is cheaper on rim than disc. Partially true. If you have a good aluminum wheel you like, then replacement parts for rim brakes is basically the pads. That costs less than pads for disc systems and disc rotors. Although rotors last a very long time and aren't that expensive, I have seen the Dura-Ace rotors on sale for around $50 each and unless you're really using your brakes a ton I don't see rotor replacement happening annually, likely less frequently...maybe much less frequently. The story changes for rim brakes if you use carbon wheels. Because once the brake track wears down on carbon wheels...that's an expensive replacement upgrade. Granted it doesn't happen often, but if let's say you get 8 years from a great set of Zipps or ENVEs...that's still $2500 divided by 8 years = $312 per year. That's more than if you were to replace two Dura Ace rotors and pads annually over that same span of time by a factor of 3X. Now granted you can justify it by saying you're getting new wheels too. So it's all up to you and your perspective on these kinds of things.
Also forgot to add the rotor rub issue. My TCR has been fairly flawless with rotor rub, but the S3 was problematic and finicky from the beginning. I had chalked it up to tolerance issues, Hambini will tell you that SRAM tolerances are......not a word I would use in polite company. But it turns out that the RAP axle has largely addressed that issue. So to me, rotor rub and alignment is something that you can avoid with proper set up. Your LBS should do this upon your purchase, but there are also tons of helpful videos online from GCN, Parktool, etc. If you're even halfway handy with Allen wrenches it's an easy job to align brakes.

I realize I hadn't made a recommendation. My recommendation is to go with hydraulic disc brakes because the industry is going that way. Current frames will have largely mitigated or eliminated their weight and aero drawbacks. No one has ever said that disc brakes stopped worse than rim. And to me safety is paramount. Hopefully you'll never need the improved braking power in inclement weather...but when you do, you'll be glad you have it.

I understood the arguments 2-3 years ago when discs were just going mainstream in road bikes (though they've been on MTBs for much longer) and the frames were optimized for rim. But for any 2018-19 frame onward it really makes sense to me to go with disc.

Last edited by CarloM; 11-13-19 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 11-14-19, 12:06 AM
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CarloM
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@bpcyclist I also realize I didn't answer your question about whether you should get a Cervelo or not. Hambini--who is starting to get well known for roasting certain high profile bike companies like Zipp, CeramicSpeed, Cannondale and Cervelo for their various practices that don't adhere to his own standards as an engineer, took Cervelo to task recently. Turns out a bottom bracket he made and shipped to a Cervelo client wouldn't work right so the client sent him the frame. He then looked up the white paper and blueprints for Cervelo products and saw what I now consider his "arch nemesis" Damon Rinard had increased the "acceptable tolerances" to a level higher than he believes is appropriate for bottom bracket opening variations. Damon has since moved on to Cannondale, and Hambini's ire towards him has followed. This doesn't mean that all Cervelos are bad, just that for the short time Rinard was there, he increased their acceptable tolerance which means more frames with higher variances got through QC than in years past (or since, they may have re-upped their tolerances after Rinard left).

My S3 has been problem free (outside of the rotor hub which now I can tell was a result of the flex of the thru axle) so far. What are you looking for in a bike? Are you looking for a road bike? Racing on flats? Climbing hills? Do you want aero? Do you value aero over weight? Do you plan to ride gravel? How important is compliance and comfort to you, especially as a tradeoff for stiffness and possibly speed? What's your budget?
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