Veloh

When I think hand made, I visualize someone preferably with some skill carefully brazing a frame together. Part of the appeal comes from that aspect, personally. But thinking about it, how can you tell this was the case? Millions of bikes have been sold so it's hard to believe that even better frames had that much care. How could you tell if a nice lugged frame was hand made with precision, hand made with shortcuts, or made by machines.

The reason I ask is that I'm looking for Italian steel (my first). The reason that I specifically want Italian is the idea that someone with passion took the time to make a great frame. Certainly I could expect that from the master builders of years ago, but what about an SLX frame from the late 80's? Could I expect a that level of precision or were they just pumped out to meet demand? When did "Hand Made in Italy" mean something before everything turned into carbon copies with only the manufacture's stickers differing.

randyjawa 

Hand made, to me, suggests that someone actually made the frame set with his or her own hands. A decent hand made bike will look very nice. Smooth thin filed lugs, drops that blend cleanly into fork blades and stays, no silver solder or brass lumps under the paint and things like that.

There are lots of hand made frames that were not crafted as above. Remember, hand made means human involved. Humans make mistakes and, more often than not, the craftsman will correct the mistakes or scrap the project. So, if you see a bike with mistakes (file marks, lugs that don't line up, asymmetry of measurements (example - fork blades not the same length) and other things that look wrong, then the set might be hand made by someone who didn't care or was just having a bad day.

I go into a bit more depth in MY "TEN SPEEDS", where you might want to spend a bit of time learning what makes a good bike, good. I have tried to contain the information in the feature article Bicycle Quality. You might also want to spend a bit of time focusing on other things related to bicycle quality as well as How To Buy Bikes.

And do not be fooled. Nice bikes come from low end and high end builders. I have seen lots of high end Italian, French and English sloppy work.

Hope that is a help.

Picchio Special

You're asking some good questions - some of the right ones to ask, in my view, since they indicate a desire to judge by the product of the work and not necessarily the name on the decals.
A couple of points:
1. Yes, brazing takes skill and care to do well, and this of course to some degree determines the integrity of the frame. But there are other aspects of the frame that take as much skill, and certainly more time - design, development and execution of little "signature" details, paint and graphics choices, selection of frame parts, including tubing, to meet the needs of a particular rider and intended use, and working the lugs into shape.
2. You can't always tell when a frame was carefully built, at least without the paint off. But there are often good clues.
3. Some frames from master craftsmen were constructed with shortcuts.
4. Beginning in the early 80's in Italy, factory production methods and economies of scale did indeed enter the Italian frame building industry in a big way and change the way many racing bikes were built.
5. The idea of the one-man shop was always a bit of a myth. They existed, but most good framebuilders would find additional hands as soon as they were big enough and could afford it. In some ways, though, supervising a small production shop and teaching and maintaining the necessary level of skill, and assuring the quality of the product, takes just as much passion and commitment as building every frame personally one at a time.

The biggest change to the meaning of "hand made" in the steel era occurred in the early 80's, when investment cast lugs swept through the bike building industry in Italy in a matter of a few years. This allowed for greater precision in the building of frames, and in some cases increased structural integrity. But it also reduced the amount of time it took to build a frame, and made many of the economies of scale and larger-scale production methods more feasible. Prior to that point, most bikes used pressed lugs, which required considerable hand work to make them aesthetically attractive, and also allowed for greater manipulation by the builder to make them distinctive (i.e. the way the lugs were thinned and profiled, and the way those chosen lug profiles introduced a certain style of tube transition, giving the frame an overall "look"). Investment cast lugs generally received very little treatment before being brazed up, because they were considered aesthetically acceptable right out of the box, and this saved labor, hence time, therefore money. This is when you tend to see uniform lug thickness and "plug-and-play" construction - where frames wind up looking a little bit like tinker toys, with distracting elements like cast-in logos everywhere.

It's certainly true that a lot of earlier Italian frames were a bit crude in terms of finish and sometimes embody less than perfect brazing. The idea that each frame built by an Italian master was made with elaborate care to a standard of perfection is part of the myth. In fact, there was an emphasis on making frames to be raced rather than displayed, and a tendency to look down on frames with too much finish work as "filed to death." This attitude may have changed a bit when some US builders took finish work to a new level and American customers' expectations changed accordingly.

But having said that, even many earlier frames were indeed built with considerable skill and care to a high standard with a great deal of pride and investment of time. It's just a good idea to maintain some perspective when looking at individual frames, rather than carrying the level of expectation one would bring to the viewing of, say, a Renaissance masterwork. A certain amount of appreciating them has to do with learning to recognize the little "signature" flourishes and choices mentioned earlier. This may help offset the disappointment of finding file marks.

bikemanbob

Great question! I've wondered the same thing. I have a Panasonic DX 2000 that has been hand built and I've wondered what that meant. Let me say though, the work on the bike is very nice and I've been impressed.

wrk101

Hand made = good marketing department. As they get more specific, like my Lotus with a hand brazed sticker, it is more meaningful. But even then, it just means they did not have a machine braze the frame. Not sure that really makes the frame "better". Perhaps they couldn't afford the machine.

bradtx

Veloh, My mind's eye sees an older craftsmen dressed in dirty kahki pants, a sleeveless shirt, bicycle cap, filthy hands and an obligitory unfiltered cigarette hanging from the lips while sweating the details of installing some tubes in a jig. Probably nothing is further from the facts than my version of history.

I think that to some extent all frames are handmade, just not by the same craftsman as it graduated from one manufacturing step to the next. I remember comparing my '80 RRA with a friend's new Italian (Ciocc, maybe) racer in the early '80s. The level of craftsmanship was very much the same even though his bike had much nicer of everything. This was a little surprising to us both.

All in all PS' reply hit the nail on the head.

Brad

Chombi

Peugeot boasted in the 80's with a decal on many of their upper level frames that their upper level frames were "Brais a le main" (Hand Brazed).
In Peugeot's case, at least in the mid 80's, unfrotunately, it didn't mean high quality as I had to go through quite a few examples (must have been at least 6 to 8 bikes two trips) in a dealer's show room to find my PSV that had a good, clean brazing job and well finished lug points. The other frames had ugly brazing gaps and splatter, lug points that were cut off, blunted or were filed uneven from one side to the other, and I even had a head tube start buckling on the first example I took home after a couple of months of riding because I and the dealer suspect, brazing overheating must have damaged the headtube steel. I was lucky they replaced that first bike under waranty.
Yes, hand made, but I guess not all those frame builders in the Peugeot factory were that skilled. Frankly, the mid level Schwinns ("robot" brazed frames) that were just coming out at that time, were so much cleaner/better made. "Hand made" can only be good if the hands doing it are trained well to do it. I guess Peugeot was pinching pennies like crazy back then with their brazers and assemblers....

Chombi

Veloh

Excellent points and I'm glad that many good ideas have been brought up. It's primarily the change in the Italian bicycle industry during the 80's that's got me concerned at whether my perception and expectations of an "Italian" bike is unwarranted. If most of the houses used a plug and chug method to braze frames, then I feel as though the frame loses a part of that desirable "human element" --the combination of skillful and flawed building techniques that gives the frame intangible qualities. Without it, the frame would be just a pile of steel, dimensions, and some decorative touches and therefore I would expect no differentiation between a Japanese, Italian, American, etc. frame which, again, makes me wonder why I would even bother with an "Italian" frame if there isn't much "Italian" about it.

I don't mind flawed work such as the builders who built with a purpose other than aesthetics, like speed. Arguably, this shows as much care taken to frame-building than someone else who meticulously, and precisely prepares a frame. Both display a passion in making a frame into a unique experience for the rider on and off the bike. However, this "hand made" marketing scheme misleads me as I also see the "Braise a la main, " "Hand made in...," "Made in ..." stickers on less that desirable frames that were made just to satisfy the day's quota.

This ultimately leads me back to which Italian frames are even worthwhile. Not to belittle Italian frames (it's just my current interest), but honestly, is there anything special about a late 80's Masi, Ciocc, Scapin, Bianchi, etc. or is it all built on myth? Would they be any different than a Centurion, Miyata, Univega, etc. which many might say have more precise build quality than their Italian counterparts? In my mind, a mass produced Italian bike is still a mass produced bike and can't compare to the likes of hand-built to the truest form such as Albert Eisentraut, Greg Diamond, Pelizzoli, Marnati and more.

Given my perspective, what Italian frames from which eras would give me the best experience of Italian hand-made or is it all just a fabrication of good marketing schemes and a legacy of legendary frame-building that might actually have been lost as the years went on? I'd like to focus on more boutique and small volume American builders but was mainly concerned if I'd be missing out on the "Italian" experience.

Amesja

coloneluw

I would venture to ask whether you mean "hand made" or "lovingly made". There are a lot of things hand made in factories by people who are just trying to survive. To me, hand made would require some form of interaction with the builder, either directly or through a dealer. Things like having a bike built to your dimensions comes to mind. Something that would require a human interaction. Even then, you are more than likely just a serial number to the person actually brazing your bike. This day in age, let the human put your bike in the jigs and let the robot do the brazing.

cudak888 

"Hand made" - according to the marketing department - includes any tubes set in a jig by hand.

...including a Huffy.

-Kurt

repechage

If you want hand made with attention, then look to an American fame, but a small builder.
There are many small production builders that over the decades built nice bikes "hand made" Some still do, such as Pergoretti, to name just one, there are many others.
Some of the small builders went "big time" to one level or another, DeRosa, Colnago, Masi, Pinarello, et al.
While the Italians make nice craftsmanship bikes, some of my favorite riding bikes are French, with the brazing that could be equal to "get in, flow it through, (including extra for the tube beyond the lug) and get out". Solid joints, just not beautiful. There are a few "custom" French builders that expressed great care, just not many and you will PAY for them.

toytech

Want to see some pretty amazing "hand made" lugwork? Check out Steelmans web site some time there are some pretty amazing hand cut lugs on there.

sillygolem

I think "hand made" is great because I can pay extra for something of questionably better quality so I can jabber on about the "soul" of the thing and how owning it makes me a better person than anyone else.

Today, when you talk about "hand made" bikes it often coincides with "built for you." While small American makers can turn out some beautiful bikes, their main attraction is their ability to build something exactly to your dimensions and specifications: The difference is like that of getting a tailored suit vs. one off the rack.

Picchio Special

If you want a nice frame, the suggestion to look for a smaller American builder is a good one. The level of finish work will often be exceptional. Sometimes those bikes have other issues because they were built by guys who didn't pay dues in a larger operation, but a little research should eliminate this as a potential problem.
If you want an Italian frame, it may open up a whole cycling culture and history to you, if that's something you value and are interested in. I would look for a bike or frame from about 1973-79 - many of the bikes I see and react to instantly are from about '75-77. They often show a refinement that is less common in frames from a decade earlier, but the economies of scale haven't quite kicked in yet. These really started during the pressed lug era, which created the impetus and laid the groundwork for the cast lug era. For example, Pogliaghi was putting out many, many more bikes in 1979 than in 1973, and there were many more guys building the frames.
Look for a lesser known builder (look right past De Rosa, Masi, Pogliaghi, etc., unless you happen to get lucky). There are a ton of them. They are more available than they were a few years ago, as there are more people selling them directly from Italy. The problem is that they tend to be over-priced for "non-name" bikes. You may have to be patient and/or negotiate. There was a very nice Branca on ebay several months ago, for example. If you're really patient, you'll learn what you like about a particular frame and why it floats your boat, so you can be ready to pounce when you see something in your aesthetic "strike zone." Otherwise you'll have to go by the name, which can work well or flop pretty badly.
In any case, as I say, entering this world of lesser-known Italian builders can open up a whole cycling world, like opening a door to an alternative reality, with its own geography, traditions, lore, etc. But if you just want a nice frame, go American.

Picchio Special

Which brings up the point that if it's fancy handwork you like, the British builders from the immediate post-war are the way to go. Some of those lugs took hours and hours to carve. On the whole, the finish work is better than what was being done in Italy at the same time. Whole 'nother ball of wax. In terms of frame design, the UK builders got it right when they started copying what was being done on the continent - they were behind in this area for a while.

kroozer 

Were any lugged frames not "hand-made"? I mean, they weren't put together by robots, were they? I would think we're talking about a sliding scale of care, rather than discreet, separated categories.

Picchio Special

Yes - many lugged frames were not made by hand. A number of larger operations did use robotic brazing (Trek being one domestic example, and I believe this was true of a number of Asian producers as well). Ross rather famously built a ton of it's lugged bikes using a molten salt bath method - brass rings were placed in the lugs and then the frames were dipped into the molten salt. There's a distantly related tradition in the UK of hearth brazing, whereby the brass is positioned and then the frames are placed in an open hearth (this last method involves enough hand work generally that the frames produced using it are usually considered "hand made," and are certainly built one at a time or in small batches - i.e. it's not a mass production method of building bicycles).

gomango

As much as I do enjoy my De Rosas, Tommasinis, and a late model Rossin produced Pogliaghi, I have really been downsizing the fleet. In a few cases, I have been replacing with very select bicycles from builders such as Curt Goodrich, Tiziano Zullo, and Chris Kvale. Fewer bicycles mean an ability to focus on certain details and features that I truly enjoy. For those of us with limited funding, a sacrifice in terms of quality is not necessary.

Patience is another matter, you just have to know where to look and the correct pricing guidelines for a particular model.

Quantity is another matter. I simply don't need that many bikes anymore. I just want high quality pieces that are a joy to ride with family and friends.

For example, the lug work on a Kvale produced frameset is really fun for me to ponder/consider. I can't believe the hours of hard work and craftmanship that go into his framesets.

.....and make no mistake, they ride as nicely as they look imho.





So, for the price of a Surly Pacer, I have managed to acquire two Kvales in the last year.

One of which will available soon, as it is not sized to my tastes or needs. I acquired a garage full of Campy gruppos, and the beautiful Kvale frameset came along for the ride.

It is almost worth it to keep around, just to enjoy the beauty of his top shelf craftsmanship.

ciocc_cat

This is what I think off when I read "hand made" as applied to bicycle frames:
https://www.pelizzoliworld.com/

(Signore Pelizzoli hand made my Ciocc San Cristobal.)

Edit: Video of Signore Pelizzoli restoring a vintage frame:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJHwPqn2jY0

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

I had a '84 Panasonic Team that also proclaimed to be "Hand Built" proudly on the top tube. It rode quite well, but it was nothing fancy at all...quite plain actually and to me looked mass produced. I always assumed Panasonic took some liberties with the term

JunkYardBike

gomango

....and quite reasonably priced.

Having a bit of a problem though. I would love to order a frameset for my wife, but color is the hold up.

This:



or this:



for this:



We will see what she chooses!

Fissile

Fillet brazed Schwinns were handmade. See here: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/schwinn-braze.html

ciocc_cat

So are McDonalds hamburgers. Are they equal to a world-class entre from Chef John Folse's kitchen? As someone who has dined on Chef Folse's cuisine, I think not. Nor is a Schwinn Varsity equal to a Cinelli Supercorsa. There's "hand made" and then there's hand crafted by a master framebuilder - maybe that's the terminology that we need to be using here.