2WheelWilly

Hi All--

It's time for me to buy a new (to me) bicycle and I feel like I could really use some input from people more knowledgeable than I am.

For the last fifteen years or so, I've been riding an early 70s Motobecane Grand Record that I inherited from my father. Though I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as most of the posters I read on here, I've developed a deep admiration for this bike: it's taken me on loaded tours through New England, Glacier National Park, the Blue Ridge Parkway (though I nearly died [speaking metaphorically] with 40+ lbs packed and only those 10 racing gears on a ~7,000 ft. elevation day--bad miscalculation), etc. It's also taken a beating on my countless daily commutes to work (I've never owned a car) and grocery runs in all sorts of weather. I've certainly put more than 20,000 miles on the bike (plus whatever my dad put on it)--all, for the most part, with the original (mostly campy) components. Over all that time, it rides like a dream. Not bad for a bike that's more than 50 years old. The amazing way that it has served its function (even stretched--this wasn't designed to be a tourer) for all these years has made me think differently about material goods, and to wonder at how quickly new items these days break down, and how often we replace instead of repair (trite reflections, I know).

Still, it's finally time for me to get a new bike. For one, in my early 40s, I'm not going to continue to survive doing my annual-with-friends loaded touring trips on just the racing gears. More to the point, the bike is just finally starting to suffer from the beating it's taken over the past half century: the headset/stem, for example, is on its very last legs--there's no avoiding the "rumble" that happens when I brake in the front. Finally, I don't think the bike has ever *really* fit me: my dad was a couple of inches taller than I am and I feel somewhat stretched out even just on the hoods. I'm certainly not going to give up on the bike, but it's ready to become an interesting rehabilitation project rather than my go-to bicycle.

The problem is, I want to replace it with a bicycle that I admire just as much, and one that will last me for the next fifty years--and I'm not sure how to do that. First, my primary uses for my bicycle are: 1) commuting, 2) roughly once-yearly loaded touring (almost always but not exclusively on paved roads), and (3) maybe an occasional 20-40 mile recreational ride with friends. I'm willing, if necessary, to split functions (1) and (2) into separate bikes if absolutely necessary--I have an old steel Peugeot frame that I could enlist a friend to help me work up into a functional commuter--but it seems like a pity to buy a high quality bike only to not use it for many hundreds or thousands of usable miles.

I'm not a wealthy person, so cost is relevant to me. Before I started researching this purchase it would not have occurred to me that $2000 is something anyone would spend on anything other than the very highest end custom bike. On the other hand, I'd rather buy a bike that I'll use for the rest of my life than have to buy another bike in x years, and if I'm going to use the thing for the rest of my life I want to love it: I'd rather spend more for something excellent than spend less for something that's noticeably (even if just a little bit) worse for the next (super optimistically) forty years.

I understand, based on my reading of past threads, that the bike's *fit* is far more important than the various things that distinguish a $400 refurb project from a $2000 tourer from a $6000 custom build with exotic materials. ...but I don't really know what my *perfect fit* is, and I'm not sure how I'd even figure that out. Even in a city like Boston, I don't find many stores that have a wide variety of tourers in a bunch of different sizes that are willing to spend all day giving me test rides, and even then I'm not sure what I'd be looking for in a test. Weight also matters to me: I carry my bike up and down a ton of steps daily and I have tendonitis in both elbows. I don't care about shaving grams for racing speed, but the difference between 25 and 30 pounds is relevant to me. (Not that 30 pounds is a deal-breaker.) I also genuinely care about aesthetics--not enough to compromise on anything else (longevity, safety, riding pleasure, ease of maintenance)--but I'm very far from being indifferent. I'd love to be able to look at my bike and enjoy it. I think, for example, that the bikes that Royal H builds are a lot more beautiful than a Surly Disc Trucker (though if the SDT is the right bike for me overall I'm happy to go in that direction). I have a sense of what I like: generally, I prefer steel or titanium to aluminum or (last choice) carbon; I like a two rather than three-ring drivetrain; I'd prefer rim brakes: but none of those things alone are absolute deal-breakers. And, while I don't care about racing speed, I'd like to be able to keep up with my friends if/when they decide to push things a bit.

Based on these considerations, how would you advise me to proceed? Of the stereotypical new touring bikes (all of which I assume are great), I think I like (in rough order) the Kona Sutra, the Bombtrack whatever that's been on sale for ~$1500, and then maybe the Surly Disc Trucker (though I detest the lime green). But all I've done is read about those bikes on the Internet. I don't know which geometry suits me best, which size is mine, etc. (I'm about 5'8", 150, fwiw.) Another option would be to invest far more than I'd ever imagined or think is especially wise (but technically I could--it just feels insane) into some kind of custom or otherwise higher end or niche type build, like a Co-Motion or a Royal H or a Seven or Mosaic or Ritchey (or whatever). I'm hesitant to do this but if a twice-as-expensive bike is going to be noticeably better for the next forty years that's probably worth it. If, on the other hand, it's just vanity, it's not. I've been happy on a hand-me-down alongside friends with newer and more expensive bikes for years. --or there are intermediate options, like the Deschutes (don't much like the current stock color) or a used Royal H at the Pro's Closet website. A final option would be to search for something higher end on the used market. I do have an extremely lovely friend (one of the best people on the planet) who's a better bike mechanic than I, so he could help me with the process of building something out (and of acquiring the right components).

I feel like, ideally, I'd get a SUPER precise idea of exactly what I want in every facet before buying (I like this geometry not that, I value these components over those, etc.)--but I'm not sure how to achieve that.

I apologize for the overlong life-story. Any suggestions would be most welcome! Thank you so much. -Rob

abdon 

Lean on your bias; if Motobecane is what you loved, get a touring one. I'm a huge fan of vintage steel so that's what I would get.

Get a second wheelset so you can ride whichever makes the most sense for the task at hand

Russ Roth

Personally I see no issue with disc and really do prefer it. It isn't as great of a cheap bike with QR but a nice bike with thru axle is always nice. I've given thought to a similar bike recently and although I'm thinking it won't be in the budget, I do like to figure out the possibilities. To that end

With the current sale I'd lean towards Ti, since the price doesn't include a fork and I'm cheap I'd get the one from random bike parts. It isn't big name but its a mid-level raleigh gravel bike surplus and that is more than good enough for someone of my budget/ability and a bike of this type.
https://lynskeyperformance.com/gr300...cable-routing/
https://www.randombikeparts.com/prod...72896248&_ss=r

Though I wouldn't rule out the whole steel is real, and I do like steel. It would save a little cash but I think I actually want ti for my next gravel/touring bike.
https://www.benscycle.com/milwaukee-...gitive-20834/p

Either way, a nice 105 disc groupset to fill it out. This has a good price because of course, 12sp is out. And I do like 12 speed but 11 is good enough. If budget was a bigger concern I'd shop around for a Tiagra group, I'm guessing they can be found in the 500.00 range.
https://www.merlincycles.com/en-us/s...et-119887.html

Wheelsets are the tough one. There's a site a lot of people recommend that always has good wheel deals but I can never keep track of it. So off the cuff.
Cheap and easy, picking out the rest of the cockpit on Merlin cycles and this wheelset you'll have a 105 equipped ti tourer for under 2k, not the best wheelset but I have the wtb i23 rims with xt hubs on my touring bike and I like them, can't complain.
https://www.randombikeparts.com/prod...e70d8cab&_ss=r

Still trying to budget, but wanting better. Toss in the required spokes, I like wheelsmith HD or similar and a 6 pack of scotch ale for the friend who can build wheels and you might scrape 250, not sure what a local shop charges since I build my own.
https://www.randombikeparts.com/prod...e70d8cab&_ss=r
https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...68&category=80
https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...82&category=80

From there blow through your budget however, but the above can give a solid steel ot ti build. best I've got.

abdon 

I loved my Merlin titanium road bike but I find it strange to have a titanium touring bike. The miniscule weight it would save is nothing compared to the loads you usually carry. Let alone the extra body weight...

Russ Roth

Isn't about weight. My litespeed classic is one of only two bikes I truly wish I'd never gotten rid of, the other was a lugged steel derosa. Both were light-ish but both just had amazing ride qualities. A lot of the ride qualities of ti would lead me to wanting one for touring.

abdon 

That's the thing, it is about the weight, the fact that when you are in the habit of loading 30~40 extra pounds, shaving 2 pounds out of the frame has a miniscule near negligible effect.

​​Again, I loved my super light titanium road bike but for loaded touring 2 less pounds are not going to do much for me

Yan 

I'd look on the used market. Inflation has hit the bike industry very hard in the last few years. Ten years ago the line dividing enthusiast bikes from mass market bikes was around $1200, even below $1000 if you waited for a sale. Nowadays that line is pushing close to $2000.

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pdlamb

If I were in the market, I'd look at a titanium tourer for (a) the ride and (b) no worries about rust. (But all my bikes are steel...)

One thing about the touring bikes on the market now is that they're almost all tanks. I'd be tempted to go custom to find something like an old Motobecane as far as frame goes and build it up with good touring components. If you ride it for 20 years, a $4,000 custom is only $100/year more than the stock $2,000 tank.

I'm not sure what I'd recommend as far as components, TBH. Top of the line today may turn out to be harder to source maintenance and repair parts in 20 years than the cheap 9-speeds available today. Or not. (After all, predictions are hard to make when they're about the future.) So, I might recommend planning on one more "lifetime" bike to buy as a retirement celebration.

L134 

That's the problem. To get that super precise idea of what you want comes from your own experience, preferences and desire to tweak things as you go. For me, tweaking is fun. I'd start with a good, used, well fitting touring frame (likely acquired as a completely built bike) in the $1,500 - $2,000 range and then start on a life long journey of tweaking.

hopperja

Get a high-quality vintage touring bike, Miyata 1000, 83-86 Specialized Expedition, etc. As I understand it there were a handful of Miyata 1000 clones, such as the Univega Specialissima. Ride it and define/refine your preferences from there.

I found an 83 Expedition in my size in all original condition on Craigslist recently (Aug 2023). I was going through the same process as you and snatched it up. I also recently saw a Nishiki Cresta GT (1985, I believe) in excellent condition for $120. You should easily be able to get into a vintage, high-quality touring bike in good condition for a few hundred dollars, or less.

Good luck!

abdon 

Honestly shove some motor oil inside your tubes and you have not much to worry about. I have oil spills on my garage floor from years ago that are still there, and that's in a place that sees foot traffic. People get fancy with 'what's the best product to rust proof a frame?" when plain old motor oil will hold tenaciously to every pore on the inside, repelling water for decades.

But yeah, building up a vintage frame is extremely smart. To me the absolute perfect fit was a Trek 720, so I started with a frame, made some modifications to it, and had it powder coated for a finish that was better than factory. I laced Dyad rims to SON dynamo and Shimano XT hubs. Derailleurs are Deore XT 772, one of my favorites. For racks I installed Nitto Campee racks with the low paneer mounts; I can braze and weld but those things are so perfect that there was no point on me custom making my own. Brooks saddle, leather all over, bar end shifters, and other nick knacks probably set me back around $2.5k in 2014, with me doing a lot of my own work.

The cost doesn't need to be all at once. I would say have a frame powder coated and build back with whatever came with the bike, then upgrade from there. My next stop would be the tires. If you are into friction shifters then you can switch around whatever drivetrain you care to throw in there and it will shift.

LeeG

2Wheel, you’ve been riding a bike that is too big for you for 15 years and while you have emotional attachment to it I’m pretty sure just adjusting to a bike that’s in the ball park for fit will put a kink in your desire for another emotional attachment of great significance like “the last bike you’ll ever have”.
My $.02 is to chuck all the emotional stuff associated with dad’s bike as well as “the last bike” stuff into a box to deal with later and just test ride a few bikes. After awhile you’ll develop preferences and recognize whether you’re test riding a bike with insufficient or too much air in the tires.
1. nail down what your seat height position should be so you can set any test bike to that position. Is it 28”, 28 1/4” or if you use metric know it. Different shoes, pedals and crank lengths can make perceptible differences but if you do not know what that dimension is like you know your shoe or pant waist size then every time you get on a bike it ends up being an adjustment as though you’re discovering your shoe size for the first time. Also that way you aren’t relying on every salesperson to eyeball your correct seat height. Shops have tape measures If you say “could you set the bottom bracket to seat height at 28.5” “ you’ll save them time.
2. You don’t have to spend $2000, you can spend less. You can spend more.
3. Get the bike that works for the uses you describe. Don’t focus on weight at all. Touring racks and panniers adds a few lbs. Any bike set up for utility use like commuting and touring won’t be light and any light bike will be compromised for carrying loads.

2WheelWilly

Thank you all for these fantastic suggestions (and thanks Russ for going into such generous detail). Re weight, abdon, it's certainly not my priority, and I basically share your position that in a loaded touring context a few pounds of weight give or take don't matter much once you figure the load you're toting, etc. The reason I have *some* concern about weight (regardless of frame material) is that I do do most of my riding outside of the loaded touring context, and, particularly, I have to carry my bike up and down a couple of flights of steps every time I take it out for and return it after a commute or a recreational ride; I also have to dismount and do steps once each way *on* my commute. Doing that day after day, a lighter frame is ceteris paribus preferable to a heavier one--and, presumably, it might also have some marginal advantages when riding unloaded. But, again, weight isn't a deal breaker: if the rig is 30 pounds but I love everything else about it, that's just fine.

The truth is, it would never even have occurred to me to consider titanium, a material I was at best vaguely aware is even ever used to make bike frames, had it not been for reading a few things on this board and also coming across this touring bike build write-up from Fit Werx (no link privileges, but if you google 'fit werx a modern titanium touring bike' you'll find the article), where they claim that:

...of course the process, materials, componentry they describe there are for a different segment of the market than the one I belong to, so I realize I don't need to preoccupy myself with all of those higher-end niceties. At any rate, I'm sure there are many beautiful and excellent steel frames that would suit my purposes as well, though, a bit similar to titanium, once you start looking at the highest quality and perhaps slightly lighter material and at the option of customizing fit, things can get very expensive very fast. It's a pity there's no easy way even to give all of the various off-the-rack options an in-person try in various sizes before buying, but so much just seems to be direct over the Internet these days.

I wonder if just paying for a service like Fit Werx's "new bike fit" (I can't post links but the service is listed on their site) and then using that information to search the used and sale market for a few months would be the best course... (I'm pretty sure there's no way I could afford the build-up process from that shop). The only problem there is that I expect that even that service alone is quite costly (frustratingly, although the owners seem like wonderful people, they pointedly give absolutely no sense of the price of any service without contacting them first) and I'd want to be sure that I could get from it a very clear picture of exactly what kind of bike would best suit me so it could guide my search for an excellent deal.

Anyway, thanks again for all the fantastic perspectives above; they're really helpful. (And I'll keep an eye on this thread in case anyone else chimes in, too--the more perspectives and thoughts the better for me!)

-Rob

LeeG

Rob, wrt “I feel like, ideally, I'd get a SUPER precise idea of exactly what I want in every facet before buying (I like this geometry not that, I value these components over those, etc.)--but I'm not sure how to achieve that.”

I thought that at one time as well. Even had custom frames built with some specific dimension I thought was important and after time I discovered I was wrong, that dimension didn’t matter and proportions I would never consider I do now. So don’t look for “the last bike I’ll ever have” just get the bike that works for what you’re doing and if what you’re doing changes the bike probably will as well.

Given that your dad’s bike was free and you have money constraints I’d hold off on dropping $2k on a bike based on items on a list vs time on the saddle.

Btw how much do you weigh and what is the typical commuting load? I’m guessing you were riding on 27”x 1 1/8” tires. Do you have a prefered size of tire for your uses?

Just saw your last post. Frame material really is irrelevant. I had a shop and raced at one time 40 yrs ago. What manufacturers can do with aluminum now is amazing compared to the first years of Kleins and Cannondales. I’d much rather have an inexpensive aluminum bike that fits my needs with good tires and money left over for necessities and options like spare wheels, tires and misc touring gear than The Bike with The Parts that I cannot afford to have stolen. Spend $100 for a fancy tire on a cheap production bike instead of a Chinese titanium frame with $2500 worth of parts.

2WheelWilly

Thanks for the insight, Lee. I weigh about 150 and my commuting load varies but, I dunno, 10 lbs? I usually have an ortlieb briefcase mounted with a laptop and some papers and probably a book or two. You're right about the tire size. The truth is, I haven't a clue what size tire I prefer--I just figured I'd end up with 700c since that's what my friends' more modern bikes have.

I think I'm motivated less by emotional attachment than by a desire to just do something ONCE and to be really happy with that semi-permanently (or at least for a very long time) rather than having to keep thinking about this in future years and having to spend money again, etc. I generally dislike having to make decisions and I don't really enjoy the process of having to buy things or to change them around constantly--I just want to get something I love and then never have to worry about it again (or, at least, not for a very long time). If that costs me $800, great; if it costs me $2000 or a even little more that would be fine, too, if I really loved the thing and it was going to last. E.g. I know there's one guy on here who hates Ortlieb backrollers but I love the things. They do what I need them to do, I find them pleasant to use and *incredibly* reliable, they last me forever, and in the very rare occasion that something does go wrong there's a straightforward process for repairing it. At the time I bought them I was aghast at spending more than $100 on bike bags but after all the happy use I've gotten out of them I realize it'd have been absolutely crazy in retrospect to go back and get something I like less just to save $50 or something. Of course finding the right bike is a lot more complicated the finding a good working pair of bike bags. But just mounting a briefcase on a rear rack rather than riding around lugging a hideous heavy messenger bag on my shoulder was life-changing (which I'd never have known)--and I don't know what aspects of my current bike setup have been analogously ruinous without my being aware (only having giant racing gears is probably one).

But I hear you that I probably just don't know enough right now to be able to guarantee that outcome at any price. Anyway, if my desires or biking activity were to change radically in the future of course I wouldn't consider it some tragedy to have to go through the buying process again. Basically "a bike that works (I'd add 'really well') for what [I'm] doing now" is a perfectly good alternative description of what I'm looking for. But given that the last bike lasted me (relatively) worry free for a couple decades, I'd love to be able to find that again and to be extremely happy with my experience over that long timespan. Glad to hear that aluminum is a totally viable material too--I'd of course be very happy with a nice aluminum bike if it met all my major criteria as well!

LeeG

Rob, I’m a couple decades behind the times. I don’t tour anymore but I’ve been carless for 15 yrs using my bikes for local transportation. Got old and heavy transitioning from responsive drop bar road bikes and mtn bikes to upright touring/utility bikes.

Your light weight gives you more leeway in bike choices than someone heavier. 700c wheels are fine and the ability to put on 35 mm -38mm tires can open up a lot of fun dirt road riding should you want to.

Unless you have absolute preferences on drop bars check out Specialized Sirrus bikes for a commuter bike. The most basic rim brake version is cheap. I have not ridden one but it’s specs are more touring/sport touring than hybrid commuter as they describe it.
Bike companies have deep sixed the touring bike category although some models can work perfectly well as your old Motobecane.

If you want the most bang for your buck get familiar with test rides and tell the shop yr months away from buying. The more bikes and people you interact with the greater likleyhood you’ll get what you want on budget.

dvdwmth

If you want to know in advance what you need you can pay for a bike fit or find a knowledgeable committed bike shop person to help you. That seems to be harder than it used to be a few decades ago.

Fit is customizable. If you are in the ball park for frame size you can usually find ways to dial in the fit to suit your body. Any decent bike shop should be able to get you in the neighbourhood. Then you can adjust stem length, seat position and height, bar type and size, and crank length to match your body. This does take time to learn and some people don’t want the hassle.

The used bike market is full of diamonds and touring bikes often show up that were purchased for a trip and then not riden much. If you need parts you can look for 80s/90s mountain bikes with deore compnants and use the shifter, cranks, brakes and levers and pedals. Much of this stuff is better quality than all but the high end and even then still sometimes better.

I would guess that almost any steel touring bike that fits you and isn’t trashed would make you happy. You will get used to what you are riding as long as the fit isn’t terrible.

dvdwmth

I got curious so I searched eBay for touring bikes and found hundreds. many legendary bikes.

Tourist in MSN

I think a titanium touring bike is just pure bling. Titanium only makes the bike a few pounds lighter but adds to the cost quite a bit. That said, I really like my titanium bike. I got lucky on the price on the frame, so that is why I have a titanium touring bike. In my case it is a titanium frame that it specifically built to be strong enough for loaded touring, I would not tour on one that was a compromise.
https://www.bikeforums.net/22868083-post4731.html

2WheelWilly

That's a beauty, Tourist! I've been doing a lot of noodling around on the usual secondhand venues and I came across one like yours (same model) that was pretty reasonably priced (given what I've now been conditioned to think of as "reasonable") but it was way too big for me. There's an old Litespeed Blue Ridge on ebay set up for touring that might fit me (also reasonable, at least when compared with a new steel touring bike) and a Seven Tsunami with rack mounts on facebook that *might* fit me as well... but I don't know anything about those bikes. The Seven is local so I suppose I could try to test ride if I decide I'm seriously interested. (I'm still *a ways* away from buying, and haven't made any determinate decisions.)

It's funny, I don't think I've read a post on this forum in general about titanium bikes that doesn't start by observing that they're a needless extravagance in the context... and then go on to say how much they love their own . I believe both!

Xavier65

If you fancy Titanium then add VanNicholas.com to your list.

I had half as much money to burn so I went with Aluminium, i.e. Maxx.de

GamblerGORD53

Titanium is idiotic. Anything but a Rohloff14 is a POS.
I wouldn't leave home without my front hub SA XL-FDD dyno drum brake either. 100% fit and forget reliable for 32,000 miles.
Dyad black rims for 35 mm tires, with Wheelsmith 2.3/ 2.0 spokes.

abdon 

The thing is: if somebody's salary was to double, chances are they would not be riding the same car they drive right now. Extrapolate that to a titanium vs. steel bike. Not only that but solid performer steel touring bikes can be had for very little money, in comparison titanium frames still enjoy a huge markup on the used market.

But it is your choice if you want to YOLO your bike purchase. I also haven't seen a titanium bike with a geometry I like. On that vannicholas website the Yukon Rohloff looks super pretty but it is a short bike, it doesn't have a lax angle geometry, it is missing mid fork rack mount points, and worst of all, it looks like it has miniscule tire clearance for anything beyond road tires. At best it looks like a sports tourer or credit card tourer.

Yan 

Steel = old technology for heavily burdened touring bikes

carbon = light, fast-going bike with aerodynamic tube shapes

Titanium = more expensive than carbon, heavier than carbon, less aero than carbon.

I can't see the value proposition of titanium in 2023. Ti was a thing 20 years ago when carbon wasn't mature. Time has moved on.

A dirt cheap Surly steel frameset weighs about 3kg. High end carbon nowadays weighs as little as 0.9kg. Ti is somewhere in between. So you're spending thousands of dollars to save what, 1000 grams?

Take those thousands of dollars and invest in some high end camping gear. That's multiple kilograms. More bling too.

abdon 

I can put an ugly ding on steel and titanium and still ride it without worrying about it. Both materials allow me to enjoy the vintage and classic market without having to worry about catastrophic damage I can't even see.