Koyote

Thanks for proving my point.

glassman83

I honestly think they're grade 300 bearings, which Wheels Manufacturing lists as Ultegra quality. We use them as replacements, lube them accordingly, and have few problems. Grade 25, which is Campy Record or Dura Ace rated, are more costly and will work better, but are overkill for most of our repairs.

UniChris

Yep. Keep in mind they do a bad version of this that actually has far more parts for $129 already

They manage to find the $129 version worthwhile, considering the social benefits they could claim in an era when image is worth money, the $260 version is a plausible business proposition if it were done as part of the coordinated community effort already explained as key to shifting demand from garbage features to reliable transport. As already explained, just putting a solid no-frills bike on the floor at a budget price may not work absent the needed community-based user education.

UniChris

Decent bearings cost a little bit of money. But grinding serviceable ones don't cost that much more than pretend ones - it's a quite mature technology.

Most of the actual cost difference between good and bad is probably in supplier supervision and sample testing production lots to make sure they meet specs, vs. someone passing off garbage that used the wrong steel or heat treat because they know no one is looking - doing it right doesn't cost that much more, what's needed is to prevent cheating.

StargazeCyclist

The problem is the Hell Mart don't think a good cheap bike would sell. They are regarding their stuff as toys (the same can be said for many LBS) and trying too hard to 'match' the features of more expensive products.

Working with inline sellers might be a more realistic approach.

UniChris

Indeed, I've been clear throughout this that it's not really something the selling or buying side could do on their own. It would take a coordinated partnership to align the supply and demand through the same sorts of community resources needed to help users keep their bikes on the road.

The alternative is to keep tying up resources in short lived garbage - something were belatedly waking up to the fact that we need to move past in general. Doing that with bikes isn't particularly more evil than all the other ways industrial society does it so not by itself something to scream "the sky is falling" over. But just keeping on doing what we've always done because it's what our idea of business and consumerism is tuned to is an example of the kind of behaviour that's trashing the only planet we have.

For a different market, perhaps, but the demographic with the greatest need for budget bikes doesnt have credit cards. That path probably becomes another $500 assembly required sight unseen gamble with the price kept high by extra features and/or the limited numbers - people have linked examples of such up the thread.

About the closest you could come to "online" for the need this thread was about would be a supplier that co-ops could order from down to quantity one in order to sell at minimal markup.

That still skips leveraging that the big boxes know how to get stuff made, imported and distributed and transitioning them from being half of the problem to eventually half of the solution.

Koyote

You really need to take a course in microeconomics and learn about this thing called “market capitalism.“

UniChris

You really need to realize that doing what we've always done is becoming usustainable.

Or maybe you'll personally take your beliefs to the grave.

Our collective descendants are in trouble if thinking around making, selling, and trashing crap does not evolve.

The thing is, capitalism doesn't have to be the problem, small shifts of focus in a few places can get mechanisms running on a different track. It's pretty routine for industries to change track and supply and demand for things previously rare to become normal.

Koyote

This is not about my beliefs.

Beyond that, I’m not going to try explaining this to you, because you have proved yourself to be supremely resistant to learning anything from anyone else in this thread.

When practically everyone disagrees with you, it might be time to stop and wonder, “Do I need to rethink my position?“ Yet you simply persist in believing that every single other person is wrong, too unintelligent to understand you, or not paying close enough attention.

Good luck to you.

UniChris

Indeed, you've made it clearer than you can possibly realize, that you are not going to try to even think about the challenges society faces.

But why are you still posting in this thread, to which you've made it abundantly clear you have nothing to contribute?
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Reflector Guy

Walmart can sell a bike for $129 and be happy with the two cents (or whatever) profit they make on it because they make up for it in volume; not just bikes but the countless other items the bike customer probably buys on the average Walmart visit. And that $129 price is only made achievable because Walmart has used its enormous influence to roughhouse every supplier in the chain to get the lowest price possible, from the rubber plantation in Brazil to the aluminum miners in Africa to the women and children on the assembly line in China.

UniChris

...which is exactly why they're in position to be able to do a better, simpler bike at twice $129

But again, the other half of the partnership is needed, too: without developing the demand through education about what's important in a bike, they won't sell and the whole thing will flop.

Trakhak

This discussion will likely soon be moot, as inexpensive electric scooters become more and more ubiquitous.

That said: the problem is not that disadvantaged people can't afford to pay $250 or $300 for a reliable bicycle. (A high proportion of people in all economic circumstances manage to afford smartphones, after all.) It's that they know that they can buy a bike for $100 or $150 and don't know why that's a bad idea. (Before China's recent increase in average per-person wealth, of those Chinese who didn't have a television or telephone---or indoor plumbing---millions owned a reliable bicycle.)

A more practical solution than the pie-in-the-sky parts-on-pallets scheme would be a point-of-sale change, to better inform customers with regard to the available choices. Big box stores already stock better bikes, albeit at higher price points. One fix: persuade the management at Walmart and Target to train their salespeople to (slightly) upsell those customers who need reliable and affordable transportation.

For those customers who just want a bike in the garage to ride on the three or four occasions per year when the impulse strikes, push the $150 bike. For those who need a bike for regular transportation, push the $270 bike.

As an ex-bike-store manager, I recognize that most people would be better off going to bike stores for reliable bikes. But big box stores will continue to dominate sales, so that's where the work needs to be done. Energy that would otherwise be dissipated in pursuing wildly impractical hypothetical solutions should be applied to changing the culture at Walmart et al., and to convince people of the difference between BSOs and decent bikes.

fishboat

I've occasionally "grazed" this thread..seems to be growing angst(how unusual..)..so forgive me if I've missed something..

I'm retired from a long career in RDE(research, development, & engineering). Creating, developing, (patenting) and commercializing products was my life. At the end of the day nothing changes until someone does something.

Reminds me of a quote/verbal exchange between Howard Cosell and Muhamad Ali.

Howard to Ali: "Without me you'd be nothing!"
Ali to Howard: "Without me you'd just be a mouth!"

UniChris you seem to have a lot to say. Talk is cheap..hell, it's free. Railing on and on about what "they" should do is a waste of time. What are you Doing? If you're so passionate about this issue..start a bicycle company..show the world how you're right.

Another quote: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens (or just one) can change the world: indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.” -Margaret Mead, anthropologist

I've been in more meetings than I can remember lead by individuals who confused action with talking an issue to death.

So, what are you doing? If you're not doing something, then you're just another mouth.

UniChris

If I were in a position to do this, I would (though note that the doing would not be making bikes, but lobbying businesses - the point is to refocus an existing industry, not to compete with it)

Instead I'm in the ups and downs of another industry, and were I to contemplate changing industries it would still not be to this.

​​​​I personally happen to think talking about ideas is useful, but no one's participation is required in a conversation they don't see as useful.

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fishboat

How unique..someone with an excuse that you can't do it, but "they" should.

With due respect, practical reality then is that you're just another mouth..yawn..the world is full of them. If you don't grasp that concept now..in time, you will.

UniChris

That goes for everyone here.

Especially those who feel the need to jump into a thread they don't find interesting and point out things already said many times in the preceding pages.

​​​​​​If you are convinced an idea will go nowhere, then presumably you can realize it doesn't need your help to achieve that fate.

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shelbyfv

When you build these basic cycles, cost could be significantly reduced by specifying only one wheel.

sloppy12

I see what you did there.

tomato coupe

Translation: I prefer to complain rather than act.

downhillmaster

It’s safe to assume that you first revolutionized the other industry you referenced being a part of, and have brought french fries to the masses at half the previous cost?

Germany_chris

Wouldn’t it be easier to solve urban transport by subsidizing bike share for the poor vs trying to source inexpensive bikes?

littleone

I have one of the Free Spirits in mountain bike form. No suspension on it so I converted it to a heavy duty road bike. Also converted to fifteen speed. Stock gearing is too high. Many mods; plastic fenders, rack, bags, etc. It's steel so weight will always be there. It's fun to ride and gets used as a practice bike. Keeps the newer faster bikes nice.

StanSeven

Let’s stop with personal attacks. Disagreeing is part of discussions but statements and insults that are personally directed at other members isn’t.

Cleaned up the thread.