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So what type of GPS is a good one?

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So what type of GPS is a good one?

Old 07-29-13, 09:07 AM
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Rootman
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So what type of GPS is a good one?

I have one for the car but like any of them the battery will only last about an hour or two. Can't read it for shucks in the direct sun either.

What is a good GPS that has the battery life of maybe 4-8 hours and a decent size screen that can be read in the sun? Or am I wanting too much? I'm far sighted (read here: an old man) so screen size is important. Anyone have luck with external batteries over the USB? I was kicking around getting a 7" Android tablet but carrying it might be a challenge and it certainly won't be visible in strong sun.

I went on a ride Saturday with a "friend" (posted about it elsewhere) got me a bit further than I was comfortable with and kept racing ahead. It would be nice to have a GPS to tell me where I was and how to get home if it should happen that way again.
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Old 07-29-13, 09:22 AM
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Are you wanting one for your bike or a replacement for the one in your car? Visibility is an issue for many of the car ones because of the screen material used. While it helps make the unit durable, it's not always easy to read displays during the day. Most will let you adjust brightness and other screen settings, so you might try that.

If you're asking about the bike, a number of us have Garmin Edge devices of various types. Even entry level models are 2-3 times more expensive than GPS devices for your car, though.
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Old 07-29-13, 09:45 AM
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Small screens.

Do you use reading glasses? Stick-on bifocals work great with non-prescription sunglasses. For example.





Garmin bike GPS devices have 12-16 hour run times, can be seen in bright sunlight, are waterproof, and have backlights for night riding.

You can quickly draw a course on ridewithgps.com, and upload the file to the Garmin. Then you follow the course line on a map that orients to your ride direction.

Garmins aren't perfect. Mine occasionally locks up, but just powering it back on lets me continue. I no longer bring paper backup maps.

I got my Garmin Edge 705 for the mapping. But I found I like to see the stats that are recorded from my rides. It shows the track on a map, the grades on the climbs, and my speed, heart rate, and cadence.

Last edited by rm -rf; 07-29-13 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 07-29-13, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rm -rf
Small screens. Do you use reading glasses? Stick-on bifocals work great with non-prescription sunglasses..
Funny. Garmin screens are still small, whether you can see them or not. They have few pixels so not much detail can be shown at any one time making it difficult to use as a map. They're OK for following downloaded routes that you lay out on a third party website. Of course you can elect to use a route it generates when you ask it navigate to an address or point of interest, but that route may not the one you would chose and the map is so small it's tough to figure out alternatives. For that, I whip out my smart phone with it's much larger and much higher resolution screen. Also, The 800, 810, and 510 all have screens with poor contrast in daylight compared to the earlier units like the 500 and 705.

There are many good apps that allow you to use a smart phone for navigation on a bike and as a cyclometer, and there are accessory mounts and sensors that allow recording hear rate, cadence, power, etc.. The usual issue is battery life with the screen on continuously . Auxiliary battery packs can resolve that issue.
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Old 07-29-13, 04:32 PM
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I like my Garmin Oregon 450.

I have used it in car, while hiking, and it makes a very good cycle computer (will record/display ANT+ speed/cadence, heart rate, and power)

It uses two AA which are easily replaceable, though am planning on adapting my car power cable to use the B&M Luxos U usb port on my touring bike I am building.

The screen is very visible in most lighting situations, though some sun angles require shading the screen with my hand to read.
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Old 08-02-13, 10:11 PM
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If you want mapping, the Garmin 810 and 800 are very good

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/cInt...ycling-p1.html
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Old 08-05-13, 12:22 PM
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My group has standardized on the etrex-20 ($168 from Amazon), ridewithgps web site, and OSM free maps. Sooo much simpler and cheaper than what I used to have to do. Even one of our 800 users is considering converting down to the etrex-20. The transreflective display is great in sunlight (brighter the better), don't have to touch the screen and get it all sweaty, --perfect device in my mind.
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Old 08-05-13, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dbg
My group has standardized on the etrex-20 ($168 from Amazon), ridewithgps web site, and OSM free maps. Sooo much simpler and cheaper than what I used to have to do. Even one of our 800 users is considering converting down to the etrex-20. The transreflective display is great in sunlight (brighter the better), don't have to touch the screen and get it all sweaty, --perfect device in my mind.
Not that I am considering buying one but what you said here is interesting. Can't beat the price. I'll assume you get no audible prompts if running a set route (?). This would mean paying close attention to the screen so you don't miss your turns if I'm correct. ( Do you still use a cue sheet? ) You also didn't mention how you mount it but that shouldn't be too hard to do.
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Old 08-05-13, 03:46 PM
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I am a Edge fan and have the new 810 so is it easy to read and in all lighting conditions???? No, but that never really last long so no real problem as far as I am concerned. Plus I like being able to map out new routes and send to the unit.
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Old 08-05-13, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
Not that I am considering buying one but what you said here is interesting. Can't beat the price. I'll assume you get no audible prompts if running a set route (?). This would mean paying close attention to the screen so you don't miss your turns if I'm correct. ( Do you still use a cue sheet? ) You also didn't mention how you mount it but that shouldn't be too hard to do.
Routes can/do include audible prompts and zooms but we don't use routes anymore but rather tracks. For our big annual trip I get gpx files (as well as pdf maps) that I upload to ridewithgps and write directly into the device. The problem with routes is that the devices (all Garmins) recalculate routes for themselves based on the waypoints. And it almost never matches our paper maps perfectly. Tracks, however, will match perfectly once defined. For a couple of years I did both tracks and routes just to get the beeps and zooms but it was a little confusing watching for the differences between routes and tracks.
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Old 08-06-13, 09:25 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by dbg
Routes can/do include audible prompts and zooms but we don't use routes anymore but rather tracks. For our big annual trip I get gpx files (as well as pdf maps) that I upload to ridewithgps and write directly into the device. The problem with routes is that the devices (all Garmins) recalculate routes for themselves based on the waypoints. And it almost never matches our paper maps perfectly. Tracks, however, will match perfectly once defined. For a couple of years I did both tracks and routes just to get the beeps and zooms but it was a little confusing watching for the differences between routes and tracks.
This is kind of confusing. Part of that is due to ambiguous terminology.

To clarify the terms (as ridewithgps basically uses them):

"Route": a list of points at turns (connected by straight lines).
"Track": a list of points very close together connected by (very short) straight lines.

Tracks are much more accurate: they follow the roads (the path you basically travel on). Routes, on the other hand, "cut corners".

gpx (or tcx) files can be either "routes" or "tracks".

The Garmins (at least the Edge 800) doesn't work very well with "routes". You want to use "tracks".

(People often use "route" when they are referring to "tracks". As long it's clear that one wants the thing with lots of points, that isn't much of a problem.)

"ridewithgps" is a course planning website (it's one of many). You can upload tracks and routes to use as a basis for a course. You'd usually edit the uploaded course so that it follows roads cleanly.

Once you have the course in "ridewithgps", you can export the data as a "route" (not really useful for the Edge 800/810) or as a "track". The export can be as a file (gpx or tcx) that you can later copy to the device or you can have "ridewithgps" copy the file directly to the device (there's no magic being done by "ridewithgps": it's just doing what you'd do to copy the file to the device).

The Etrex 20 should work well. But, if you already have an Edge, an Etrex isn't really going to be better. (Except, maybe, for battery life.)

Last edited by njkayaker; 08-06-13 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 08-06-13, 10:31 AM
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Very nice clarification.
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Old 08-06-13, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dbg
Routes can/do include audible prompts and zooms but we don't use routes anymore but rather tracks. For our big annual trip I get gpx files (as well as pdf maps) that I upload to ridewithgps and write directly into the device. The problem with routes is that the devices (all Garmins) recalculate routes for themselves based on the waypoints. And it almost never matches our paper maps perfectly. Tracks, however, will match perfectly once defined. For a couple of years I did both tracks and routes just to get the beeps and zooms but it was a little confusing watching for the differences between routes and tracks.
Okay, I think I follow you. So you upload a track file which which creates a more accurate map.
Can I assume then that the track file doesn't include turn by turn prompts? If so you have to be watching the screen constantly to get your turns or am I wrong about that? Personally I've used GPX route files and have no problem 90% of the time. ( Garmin 705 and Android with "Cue Sheet" app )

I think the thing I like about audible prompts is that I can turn the screen off and just turn it back on when I hear a prompt. Saves battery power. ( as long as you don't miss a prompt you're fine. ) Works well when on regular roads but if on bike paths you have to pay more attention to the screen so you don't go off course. No tracking system is perfect but not having to stop to look at maps all the time is just great.
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Old 08-06-13, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
Okay, I think I follow you. So you upload a track file which which creates a more accurate map.
Yes (sort of). "Map" is the wrong term. A map is a set of roads/paths (and lots of other information). "Course" is a better term.

A "course" or "track" or "route" is a path on a map (one particular path drawn on a map).

The Garmins (for example) do extra route processing on a course. The reason you want to use a "track" ("snapped" to roads) instead of a "route" is because the track reduces the extra processing the Garmins do to follow a course.

That is, when you use a track, what the Garmin gives you (remember, it doese extra processing) is much, much more likely to match the course you planned. In other words, because a track indicates "all" the gps coordinates you have to hit, it constrains the Garmin processing (which means the course the Garmin produces will end-up matching (very closely) the course you planned). If you use a "route" (just the "major" turns), the Garmin has more freedom to figure-out the path between the "major" turns).

Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
Can I assume then that the track file doesn't include turn by turn prompts?
No. With the tcx format track file from ridewithgps, you get turn-by-turn prompts (on the Garmin Edge 8x0).

Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
If so you have to be watching the screen constantly to get your turns or am I wrong about that?
On the Garmin Edge 8x0, you can turn on "off course" warnings too. That is a secondary audible prompt.

Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
No tracking system is perfect but not having to stop to look at maps all the time is just great.
This is an important thing to understand: you have to think (a bit) about what the navigation device is doing and how it works.
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Old 08-07-13, 05:01 AM
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Okay, about all this..^. I think I get it. Took a look at the RWGPS site again and noticed that they explain things a little better now, including some new information as well.

When I said I was running GPX routes I was wrong about that. ( Sorry, my bad ) I've been using GPX tracks all along. I know that because the RWGPS site recommended that type of file when using the 705. That's why when I use the Garmin 705 I get full written cues ( road names not just arrows ). At some point I might try adding some custom cues and try downloading a route as a TCX file. I can live without the road names as long as I still get a prompt.

I've only used the 705 a couple times. Pretty much I'm happy just using the Cue Sheet app on the Android, not to mention the Android screen is much nicer to look at if you have any location issues ( and is much easier to work with ).

Anyway, I was just curious as to how the etrex-20 worked with RWGPS ( since they make no mention of compatibility with that model on the website ). If the etrex-20 gives simple prompts while using a GPX track file and works with RWGPS like the other Garmins than that is quite interesting.
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Old 08-08-13, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
Anyway, I was just curious as to how the etrex-20 worked with RWGPS ( since they make no mention of compatibility with that model on the website ). If the etrex-20 gives simple prompts while using a GPX track file and works with RWGPS like the other Garmins than that is quite interesting.
etrex20 works great. With premium subscription you can write directly into the garmin units from the PC (both my etrex 20 and my older 60cx work this way). You don't get prompts and zooms with "tracks" but you can with "routes". RWGPS came to the same conclusion I did where they prefer tracks because they are more predictable. I have not tried generating "routes" since I switched from garmin maps (city navigator) to RWGPS.
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Old 08-08-13, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
Okay, I think I follow you. So you upload a track file which which creates a more accurate map.
Can I assume then that the track file doesn't include turn by turn prompts? If so you have to be watching the screen constantly to get your turns or am I wrong about that? Personally I've used GPX route files and have no problem 90% of the time. ( Garmin 705 and Android with "Cue Sheet" app )

I think the thing I like about audible prompts is that I can turn the screen off and just turn it back on when I hear a prompt. Saves battery power. ( as long as you don't miss a prompt you're fine. ) Works well when on regular roads but if on bike paths you have to pay more attention to the screen so you don't go off course. No tracking system is perfect but not having to stop to look at maps all the time is just great.
just some other follow up...
No prompts with tracks. But your comment about having to watch the screen... true but still way easier than staring at a map or queue sheet on your handlebar bag and wondering if that next road is the turn you're looking for and, oops, no street sign, so now what do I do?, etc.. And I find bike paths is where gps really shines over paper maps. Urban bike paths are notorious for branching unpredictably.
And regarding battery power... you might be thinking of smartphones and their terrible problems with gps navigation sucking power. I find the etrex 20 to last a LONG time. Sometimes I forget to turn it off at day's end. The next morning it's still running and has plenty of battery life left. One spare set should last you a week of riding all day long.

Last edited by dbg; 08-08-13 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 08-08-13, 10:27 AM
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Lest I sound like the gps is all "pros", here is one "con"

Sometimes maps are wrong and you need to get a bigger picture to plot your alternatives. These little gps devices are very poor for that. That's when I pull out the smartphone or the backup paper maps (if I'm carrying one).
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Old 08-08-13, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dbg
etrex20 works great. With premium subscription you can write directly into the garmin units from the PC (both my etrex 20 and my older 60cx work this way).
Without direct writing, you download the file and copy it to your unit (as a drive on your computer). Copying the file is easy to do. The direct-write really isn't worth much (don't pay for the premimum subscription for that). I typically also load the courses on my smart-phone, which means I have to download files anyway.

(ridewithgps lets you turn on/off your subscription level.)

Originally Posted by dbg
No prompts with tracks.
That's the Etrex 20.

Just to be clear, you do get prompts with tracks on the Garmin 800/810 (and 705).

Originally Posted by dbg
RWGPS came to the same conclusion I did where they prefer tracks because they are more predictable.
This is entirely expected.

Because the "route" (the list of major turns) can be so wide-apart, the Garmin has to figure out what to do in between the listed turns/points. What the Garmin decides to do might not match your planned course very well.

Using a "track" (lots of points indicating the detailed path being followed) means the Garmin has to do less (next to none) figuring out what to do.

Originally Posted by dbg
I have not tried generating "routes" since I switched from garmin maps (city navigator) to RWGPS.
I suppose you mean having the Garmin compute a route. If you are doing a planned ride (let's say an organized century), you wouldn't do that. It is useful if you are trying to get somewhere and don't have a planned route. It looks like the Garmin 800 units can only compute short-ish routes. That is, if you are going a long distance, you might need to do the route in stages (computing the route at the start of each route). A smartphone might be handy here because it can give you a better overview.

Note that you can load custom locations to the Garmins (and have the unit compute a route to a location).

Originally Posted by dbg
But your comment about having to watch the screen... true but still way easier than staring at a map or queue sheet on your handlebar bag and wondering if that next road is the turn you're looking for and, oops, no street sign, so now what do I do?, etc..
The Garmin 800/810 display the track as a purple line and your travelled path as a light-blue line (other units are probably similar). It's fairly easy to glance at the screen to see if you are basically on-track.

It's even not that hard to keep track of the purple line when you are off course (that does often require some zooming/panning of the device while riding).

Originally Posted by dbg
And regarding battery power... you might be thinking of smartphones and their terrible problems with gps navigation sucking power. I find the etrex 20 to last a LONG time. Sometimes I forget to turn it off at day's end. The next morning it's still running and has plenty of battery life left. One spare set should last you a week of riding all day long.
The Garmin 800/810 are also very good on battery life (maybe, not quite as good as the Extrex 20). On longer rides, I carry an external battery pack that I can use to recharge the Garmin 800 and my smartphone.

The Garmin continues working while being charged (you do have to be able to put the external battery somewhere and you might not want to do any recharging when it is raining).

Originally Posted by dbg
Lest I sound like the gps is all "pros", here is one "con"

Sometimes maps are wrong and you need to get a bigger picture to plot your alternatives. These little gps devices are very poor for that. That's when I pull out the smartphone or the backup paper maps (if I'm carrying one).
Any map can be wrong, of course (I had a smartphone mapping program that didn't show a highway that was certainly there).

I, too, use a smartphone as a backup.

The standard mapping/navigation apps (Google and Apple) work pretty-well but they (basically) require access to the cell network.

If you carry a phone, you might consider a mapping program that lets you download maps before-hand. (Note that some of the apps make downloading maps really hard.)

Note that some of the mapping apps also let you display tracks and waypoints/points-of-interest.

Last edited by njkayaker; 08-08-13 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 08-08-13, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Any map can be wrong, of course (I had a smartphone mapping program that didn't show a highway that was certainly there).
Yeah boy. I once took my mother to visit an old friend and my BRAND NEW Garmin GPS kept telling me I was off-route and telling me to turn around. Seems like they moved a hefty piece of highway a few hundred feet and it was enough to throw it for a loop. I finally figured out how to adjust what it thought OFF ROUTE was to a more generous setting and it shut up.

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Old 08-08-13, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Rootman
Yeah boy. I once took my mother to visit an old friend and my BRAND NEW Garmin GPS kept telling me I was offroute and telling me to turn aroun. Seems like they moved a hefty piece of highway a few hundred feet and it was enough to throw it for a loop. I finally figured out how to adjust what it thought OFF ROUTE was to a more generous setting and it shut up.
On a trip on Route 17 (the major road in the area) to Binghamton NY, a relatively-new (and updated) Garmin showed us flying through the air (I guess) rather than being on the road we were on! It would even snap-to roads that we were close to (using that them to reroute). Kind of amusing.

I think that either the map was stale (and didn't have the exact location of the newly-widened/moved roadway). Or that the GPS position was not accurate enough.

It's actually amazing how well the devices work. Knowing how they work (and their limitations) lets you roll with their quirks.

(Next time you feel you need to trow it, throw it my way, gently!)
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Old 08-08-13, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dbg
just some other follow up...
No prompts with tracks. But your comment about having to watch the screen... true but still way easier than staring at a map or queue sheet on your handlebar bag and wondering if that next road is the turn you're looking for and, oops, no street sign, so now what do I do?, etc.. And I find bike paths is where gps really shines over paper maps. Urban bike paths are notorious for branching unpredictably.
And regarding battery power... you might be thinking of smartphones and their terrible problems with gps navigation sucking power. I find the etrex 20 to last a LONG time. Sometimes I forget to turn it off at day's end. The next morning it's still running and has plenty of battery life left. One spare set should last you a week of riding all day long.
Nice to read that the etrex-20 is great with battery run times. When I do a 20 mile ride with my android ( running cue sheet ) it will usually take about *25-40% of the battery depending on how much I have to run the screen. ( * using other apps it can use much more ) That's not too bad. If I was doing a longer ride I might worry though. Since I also own a Garmin I have the option for longer run times. Next year I'll likely just buy an extra battery for the Android and have all my bases covered.

About the "premium service" from RWGPS; Yes, nice to be able to download directly to the unit. With the 705 since I'm not using the P-Service it is not so easy to download the route. The problem seems that once I've down loaded the route I have a hard time finding just where it is on my computer so I can send it to my 705.
I eventually find it but damn, I wish the process was more intuitive. I guess the next time I use the Garmin I'll have to write the procedure down so I don't forget. Sorry but I'm not going to pay $10 a month just so something is easier to download. That is a complete rip-off. With the smartphones you don't have this problem. You just press "download route" on the phone and it is done.
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Old 08-08-13, 02:11 PM
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njkayaker
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Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
About the "premium service" from RWGPS; Yes, nice to be able to download directly to the unit. With the 705 since I'm not using the P-Service it is not so easy to download the route. The problem seems that once I've down loaded the route I have a hard time finding just where it is on my computer so I can send it to my 705. I eventually find it but damn, I wish the process was more intuitive. I guess the next time I use the Garmin I'll have to write the procedure down so I don't forget.
It should put the files in your "downloads" folder. You can create a short-cut to that folder on your desktop.

Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
Sorry but I'm not going to pay $10 a month just so something is easier to download. That is a complete rip-off.
It would be silly to pay just for that. I doubt they expect anybody to pay just for that (that would be silly) . It's easy enough to download the files anyway.

Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do
With the smartphones you don't have this problem. You just press "download route" on the phone and it is done.
??? Are you talking about the Edge 810? If you are talking about apps, with the iPhone (at least) you typically have to email the file as an attachment to be able to open it in an app.
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