maxxevv

Just look to the EU regulations. They are genuinely well thought out. BUT not quite perfect.

End of the day, throttles are subject to wanton abuse, and the policing required to weed out this abuse is absurdly high, hence EU regulations ban them outright.

If you must ask how to fine tune this whole thing so as to aid those who really need the assist in my opinion?

i) No throttle, but a 1 time press button to get the motor to 'kick' for a good 3~4 seconds before cutting off if the user doesn't pedal. Motor will not be able to "restart" unless bike comes to a complete stop for a minimum full 10 seconds. This is to prevent abuse by people who will pulse the switch like a throttle.
- for seniors/ impaired who need the kick-off push, for cargo bikes, for uphill starts.

ii) Motors assist should be both in terms of input power percentile and speed based. Incrementally reduced as speed increases and ultimately cut-
off at about 15mph. Processors are already very powerful, its not hard to program a decent one to function on a basis of percentile input +
speed matrix of parameters.
- again it will cater to a wider variety of uses, and terrains while ensuring that these are 'safe' in general footpath use.

iii) Limitations of motor size are generally moot. But the current 250W limit is actually sensible as that's about as much as a "normal" fit person
can churn out with his/her legs. But if point (ii) is adhered to, then its not really relevant to have a specific 250W limit.
But really, its the speed that's an issue when it comes to bigger motors.

iv) These limitations are generally set to ensure safety of their e-bike / pedelac use on pedestrian footpaths / shared paths. As such the kinetic
energy carried by such need to be considered too. A 10kg bicycle at 20km/h versus a 22kg e-bike/pedelac at 20km/h are very different
prepositions when a collision does occur. Hence it will need to look at how the speed of these bikes are controlled relative to speed and power
too.

NoPhart

IMHO the whole throttle debate is nonsense! Ghost pedaling a PAS is the same thing as using a throttle... What's the difference?

And throttles ADD SAFETY. They only go on when you want them too. PAS can make you crash if you are not careful.

maxxevv

In that case, its not a true PAS.

Ghost pedaling doesn't work if there is a proper torque sensor on the crank / BB axle. It only works if you use a cadence meter for the system.


Also, please elaborate on how does "PAS can make you crash if you are not careful" ???

Necco2001

There's no definition that PAS has to be torque sensing, just that power is only applied when you turn the cranks. So, ghost pedaling is A-Ok.

There are already systems with push button "walk assist" that claim to be PAS. The whole debate over how you turn on the motor is silly and only exists to mollify those that think they're motorcycles. If you want to limit how fast an ebike can go, just limit that, not how you turn the motor on.

allan6344

FYI -Ghost pedaling doesn't fool anybody, except the person doing it.

awm72

What is "ghost pedaling"? sounds like something about Halloween.
all I know is if I pedal the bike moves. If I don't, I coast. is there something else that has changed? or does it have to do with "throttling"?

Joe Remi

That's where you're circling the cranks above a speed where your legs can still keep up. I do it occasionally on my mid-drive folder (cadence) which has a rather small front chainring. I spin out at about 20mph, but I can still slowly spin the cranks to a higher speed because the cadence always works when the cranks are moving. It's annoying though..I need to buy a bigger ring.

maxxevv

"Walk assist" is just that. It assists the user when pushing or walking along with the bike. It will not allow you to get up to 'cycling speed'. How each manufacturer implements that is dependent on the jurisdiction involved in the relevant country. As far as I have seen, it goes up to about 5~6km / hour (I have no idea if that's the speed for all systems having this feature). That's brisk walking pace.
Which is a fair speed and would be helpful for that kick-off from standstill but may not be sufficient to maintain balance of bike after initial kick-off for everyone.

Its not the same as a throttle that allows you to go full speed on your ebike without pedaling.

maxxevv

It more akin to just soft pedaling the cranks without any effort so that the cadence meter will keep the motor turning at a fixed power output level. That's what many people do with ebikes that have no torque sensors.

awm72

Similar to back pedaling only going forward. learn something new everyday, that's good. thanks again for definitions. I sorta like the Halloween idea, though. hahaha

Necco2001

I know what walk assist is, I'm just playing devils advocate to anyone who doesn't like the idea of a thottle.

Walk assist - push button, bike moves by itself up to a cut off speed.

Thumb throttle - push lever, bike moves by itself up to a cut off speed.

While you and I might think that the cut off speed matters, to others, you're just arguing about the details.

maxxevv

For that matter, you are the one trying to muddle the details, I was clarifying their differences.

There is a difference, a BIG difference between a "push assist" and a "throttle button".

The former, if implemented strictly, you can't ride the bike comfortably ( or for that matter safely) due to its extreme low speeds.

For the latter, it allows the full power of the motor to be utilized, basically converting an e-bike pedalac into an electric moped.

In law interpretations and allowances of use, the latter is mostly banned because of the moped issue.

Necco2001

Class 2 ebikes, with throttles, are perfectly legal in CA and elsewhere in the US.