dunderhi

The Little Wing has a 58mm BB drop. I'm not sure how normal is defined today, but I suspect there might be different normals for sprint, omnium, and pursuit frames. My current omnium-style bikes have 51mm(XTRACK), 55mm(Argon18), and 58mm (Paramount) BB drops. In looking at the Dolan geometry, it looks to be totally out of whack for me; the differences in reach and stack are pretty big when compared to my current bikes. I don't see how I could be comfortable on a DF3/4, but I don't find narrow bars comfortable either, so maybe I'm just a dinosaur.

dunderhi

I understand both reach & stack and how BB drop impacts stack as much a head tube length. If the Dolan's BB was dropped 1 cm lower, then without change in the head tube length there would be 1 cm more of stack. As it is, the Dolan has 9 cm less stack than the Little Wing, which is too much of a position change for me.

The No. 22 website lists their track frames are having 58mm BB drop, while their road frame's BB drop ranges from 67 to 78mm. It might be old-school track geometry, but I believe it is still a proper track geometry and that's why I've ordered one.

Also, I've ridden my Argon18 (55mm drop) with 172.5mm cranks at Rock Hill and felt comfortable with my clearance moving up and down track, so the 165mm cranks that I plan for the No.22 will be just fine. In fact my No. 22 setup will only give up 2mm of ground clearance when compared to my current XTRACK setup.

dunderhi

I disagree!

It's simple geometry, if the BB is 1 cm higher, then the seat must move up 1 cm. If the seat moves up 1 cm then the handlebars must raise 1 cm. If the angles aren't parallel, then the top tube and/or stem lengths must change. This reduces the overall stability of the bike. Subsequently, the frame manufacturers that you list below all have lower stack heights because of their decreased BB drop.

Here's few more examples:

Pinarello Pista Alu 51mm
Cipollini Speed Alto 51mm
Cinelli Mash 54mm
Argon18 Electron Pro 55mm
Bianchi Sei Giorni 55mm
Waterford Competition Track 55mm
Planet X Pro Carbon Elite 57mm
BMC TR01 58mm
BMC TR02 58mm
Cinelli Vigorelli 58mm
Bianchi Pista 58mm
Bianchi Classica 58mm
Fuji Track 58mm
Ritte 8055 58mm
All City Thunderdrome 58mm
Cinelli Super Corsa 60mm
Cipollini Speed Basso 63mm



The current Little Wing is the second generation of their track frame in their few years of existence, but they have decades of titanium frame building experience (read Serotta). With the exception of the seat tube center to top measurement, I already have a bike with the EXACT SAME GEOMETRY and I have firsthand experience training and racing on it. I wouldn't want them to change it a mm.


I never had any doubt.

Baby Puke

Only chiming in here to say that 58mm BB drop may have indeed been standard for old-school track bikes. My Panasonic and many other NJS bikes have a similar BB drop, as they are designed primarily for use on 400m tracks. The steep 250 is a relatively recent phenomenon and is probably the reason for the move to higher BB's. So 58mm may not necessarily be "street", but is definitely "old fashioned".

dunderhi

With the exception of the Fuji, most of the bikes on your list are a rare sight at T-town. I have no idea what makes a Dixie-Flyer, Tiermeyer, or Hoy so popular, since I not sure if I have never seen one. I do see Pinarellos, Bianchis, Argon18s, All-Citys, Cinellis, BMCs, and even a sharp looking No. 22, but I only see maybe 150 track racers each week so who am I to know what is popular or not?

Anyway, I know which geometries that have earned me podium spots in the last two years and No. 22 is building exactly what I want. There's a lot to be said for riding a crisp handling COMFORTABLE and STABLE bike that also gets you onto the podium.

Luckily, I didn't buy a Cipollini. I probably would have chosen the Basso(63mm drop) over the Alto(51mm drop).

dunderhi

@carleton,

In post 3456, 55mm was considered to be medium-high drop, but 58mm is now street. Oh the difference the 3mm makes.

As I said, the No. 22 is the same geometry as my 40yr old Paramount, so yeah, it's old-school, but it works and it has worked for a very long time.

Baby Puke

You get that I was agreeing with you, right?

dunderhi

@Baby Puke


I did and I thought I was agreeing with you too. The first part was aimed at Carleton's comments about medium-high vs. street geometry, but I see that wasn't completely clear. Sorry, but it should be cleaner now.

dunderhi

I think you put a lot of time and energy in thinking about your geometry and you got exactly what you wanted. I also put a lot of time and energy in picking my bike's geometry and I'm getting exactly what I wanted.

MarkWW

fwiw, I like my TK1 (minus the track end problem), and I haven't had any issues with either of my 55mm bb drop bikes at FCV, or the small handful of 250m track I've raced on.

dunderhi

Unless you have some type of survey data, I'll take that as your opinion.

In the past two years, I stepped onto the podium with each of my current bikes: the Argon 18, the Pinarello, and the Paramount. It's more about the legs, heart, and lungs than the bike, but the bike should be something that you enjoy riding.

Hopefully, you mean head tube. I already addressed this; raise the BB, raise the seat, raise the bars, and decrease the stability. If you didn't get the nuance, raising the bars requires either a longer head tube or more spacers.

My three purchased track frames average $2.5k each, so hopefully that's a reasonable price range. The Paramount was free, which is an even better price range.

Wow, if that was your first post, this flame would have never started, but it's also good to let people know they don't need to chase every trend in the bicycle industry and there are plenty of options that are acceptable. I work with new riders and teach at the Try the Track and whatever bike they have is pretty much good enough. I never tell them their BB is too low or their bars are too wide. I just make sure their bikes are sound and they learn to ride safe. Everyone isn't automatically training for the worlds, so everyone doesn't need to emulate the pros.

Really, I thought there were more 333m & 400m tracks in the the US than 250m tracks. I've raced at Rock Hill and never felt unsafe, but I'll also claim that I know what I am doing on the track.

Congrats, you finally joined the it's "old school" track geometry, just as I posted in my very first post about the geometry.

Ahh, I'm not a match sprinter. I don't care about match sprinting. I avoid match sprints. I did a sprint tournament last year and despite the fact that I podiumed, I felt like I lost a race day.

I have 165, 167.5, 170, and 172.5mm cranks. Just like my chainrings and cogs, I pick whichever is appropriate for the track, the races, and my conditioning. I also bring more than one bike to the track on any given race day. It's good to have as many options as possible.

The benefits of the lower BB is increased stability and improved aerodynamics. The only downside is IF, and that's a big IF, I don't where my pedals are then I could hit the track if I am not careful. The good news is I always know where my pedals are and I'm always careful. It's as easy as riding a bike.

All I did was reply to a forum member who said he couldn't wait to see my next build. I'm not sure why you felt the need to jump in on the conversation to correct that my 58mm drop was not medium-high only to state the 55mm was medium-high instead and later that 58mm was street geometry.



In the end I look forward to getting my No. 22 exactly how I want it and there isn't a track in the US that it would give me any pause to race upon. So with that bold statement, I will end my part in this conversation. Enjoy what you ride and I'll do the same.

TDinBristol

Curious if anyone has an opinion on running front wheels with hollow axles/hex-bolt skewers (pictured) vs. the traditional solid axle/nut setup. Is there any performance or safety difference? Can I repurpose a road tubular front without issues?

700wheel

I'm not familiar with the hex-bolt skewer you show but if there is any torque applied to the axle I would be skeptical of using it (since you would be combining tensile and shear stresses ion the axle). Others may have more experience/knowledge.

USA Cycling rule 113(a) states for track races: "....... in pursuit and time trial events that are not championships or selection events......... quick releases,.........may be installed on the bicycle....." I see track riders using a QR skewer on their front wheel occasionally.

carleton

Those work very well.

One note: The threads within lightweight aluminum nut will probably strip out on you if you have gorilla hands like me. If you get the nut from a standard non-lightweight steel skewer, the threads will also be steel and will not strip out.



You can find these at any local bike shop. They probably have the ends in a random parts drawer and will give you one for free if you are a regular. Nobody wants them. You just need the female end.

carleton

I used one of these with a deep dish road TT wheel back in 2009. I stripped out the aluminum nut by over torquing it, which led me to the solution above. I would advise using a steel nut for anyone.

I'm a big guy and I was doing sprints on a 36 degree track and didn't have any issues.

Dalai

Fine using a bolt on skewer. As Carlton has mentioned, don't get a lightweight one...

rensho3

Used that setup on my Zipp front wheel with no problems for more year than I can remember using a steel nut.

bitingduck

I have a spreadsheet that was the precursor to this site: Bike Calculator

I like the spreadsheet better than the app because it's got a bunch of columns (and you can add more) so that you can easily enter a whole course profile if you want. It takes a little more tweaking to get your CdA out but it's more flexible than the app. Pm me if you want me to email it somewhere.

bitingduck

I had one fail very abruptly while I was at the rail getting ready to start a motorpace race, right after doing a bunch of intervals. A few minutes earlier or later would have been very unpleasant. It was one of the sheriff-star hubs, with only 5 more spindly spokes than the ones in the pic, and a less beefy ring for the spoke holes. I think those in the pic were a response to the sheriff stars exploding. If you google them you'll find pictures of broken ones that were laced in cross patterns, too.

gycho77

I need help with golden cheetah program.
I cannot install the app.
so do I have to go to the setting and change something?

Or can anyone recommend me a simple program that works with srm headunit(PC7).
I only have cadence and speed sensor

carleton

Go to your Applications folder and find the .app file (goldencheetah.app?)
Right-click on it then choose "Open".

This is a security measure from Apple since you downloaded the app from the web instead of the App Store. You only have to do this the first time.

This keeps unapproved apps from randomly running without your consent.

gycho77

Thank you
I solved the problem!
Now, I just have to learn how to use golden cheetah.

Quinn8it

good luck with that!!!!

adamrogers2009

First post here.

First, thanks to Carleton, Quinn, Babypuke, dunderhi...all the regular contributors. I've read this thread in its entirety and learned so much.

I have a lot of questions, so I'll start with this one:

I am in Tokyo; where can I find information about track racing/events for this area? I understand Babypuke was in Japan before, so perhaps he can chime in here. I've looked around, and found that the Izu velodrome holds races for amateurs about 4-5 times per year, and I've found some races open to the public on 1 or 2 of the keirin tracks. All in all though, that's less than 10 events per year, and some of them appear to be not that well attended.

I'm looking for info on more races, but also clubs that I should check out and well-organized practice sessions.

About me: I'm from a road background, so my primary events would be pursuits, scratch races, points races, and the like I believe.

Many thanks

adamrogers2009

Next Q:

I don't have a track bike, and I am not in a rush to get one - need to find ample opportunity to use one first, then try different setups on rentals as much as possible to determine fit.

One burning question though.
Several of the frames that have caught my attention have 58mm bb drops. One of the tracks I'd ride is a 250m steep-banked indoor: the Izu velodrome. Am I correct in assuming that frames with that bb drop should be avoided?

Thanks