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Lesson learned from using sealant(s)

Old 02-18-16, 12:06 AM
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prankster
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Lesson learned from using sealant(s)

Just wanna share my recent experience with 2 brands of sealant for those who run tubeless. I have always used stan's sealant on my mtb. It works great. No complain.

Late last year, I ran tubeless for road bike. I have ultegra 6800 wheelset, which has a UST standard. I had read that some people had corrosion on their rims using stan's sealant. However, a lot of people did not have issue. I wanted to be on the safe side. Therefore, I used Orange sealant which claimed to be ammonia free, hence, free of corrosion. It has a good review as well from Velonews and several online blogs. Just to be clear, Stan's claimed that their sealant cause no corrosion as well. However, that ammonia...

There was no puncture whatsoever all this time, so I thought it worked but I got no way of proofing it. Until, this afternoon, I noticed there was a piece of glass embedded in the tire. So I pulled it out and the Orange sealant squirted out. I rotated the wheel so the puncture was at the bottom. I waited for some time but it didn't seal it. It just kept leaking out the sealant until the air was almost gone. I had rotated the wheel hoping the centrifugal force would help the sealant to attack the puncture but nope.

I had enough. I removed the valve and pour in Stan's sealant. It worked right away. It sealed the puncture in seconds. I stopped hearing the hissing noise as I was pumping.

Maybe this is just an isolated case but I think I'm gonna be using Stan's sealant from now on. It is way cheaper as well.
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Old 02-18-16, 01:21 AM
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The MSDS for Stan's sealant shows no ammonia. It lists latex, propylene glycol and water. Any traces of ammonia would be related to the latex, which is also present in liquid frisket or masking material used by watercolorists. Ammonia acts as a sort of anti-coagulant with liquid latex, not a solvent. The ammonia evaporates in contact with air, and the latex dries and does its thing.

Ammonia is also present in many inks and is a common solvent for cleaning inks from pen nibs -- I've used household ammonia to clean years-old dried ink from calligraphy and art pens and nibs. It's been used for centuries on parchment, vellum and paper and the trace amount of ammonia has never been considered a risk to archival properties.

Stan's addresses concerns about ammonia on its FAQ, and I'd be inclined to agree with their assurance that any oxidation, corrosion or rust are more likely due to the normally rough environmental conditions to which bicycle wheels are routinely exposed. Water, salts, limestone dust, etc., are all more likely culprits.

There may be traces of formaldehyde in some latex, also unlikely to cause oxidation.
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Old 02-18-16, 01:37 AM
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Here is a trial done with various types of sealant and tubes.

Tire Sealants - Slowtwitch.com
Sealant Test - Part 1 - Slowtwitch.com
Sealant Test - Part 2 - Slowtwitch.com

One can't necessarily compare it to tubeless, but the Orange sealant was rated highly.

One is supposed to periodically renew the sealant. Did you do that?

It is also possible the period or reduced pressure helped the tube seal independent of the sealant used.

Nonetheless, it sounds like your adding Stans gave you impressive results.
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Old 02-18-16, 08:04 AM
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I was aware of their disclaimer on their FAQ. However, I did not check their MSDS. Good to know that.

Pictures that I found online showed the corrosion on the inner rim. I thought there was no way water from outside could get into the inner rim.

Stan's ate my rims.... WARNING - Weight Weenies
Stan's sealant corrosive? | imtbtrails


Originally Posted by canklecat
The MSDS for Stan's sealant shows no ammonia. It lists latex, propylene glycol and water. Any traces of ammonia would be related to the latex, which is also present in liquid frisket or masking material used by watercolorists. Ammonia acts as a sort of anti-coagulant with liquid latex, not a solvent. The ammonia evaporates in contact with air, and the latex dries and does its thing.

Ammonia is also present in many inks and is a common solvent for cleaning inks from pen nibs -- I've used household ammonia to clean years-old dried ink from calligraphy and art pens and nibs. It's been used for centuries on parchment, vellum and paper and the trace amount of ammonia has never been considered a risk to archival properties.

Stan's addresses concerns about ammonia on its FAQ, and I'd be inclined to agree with their assurance that any oxidation, corrosion or rust are more likely due to the normally rough environmental conditions to which bicycle wheels are routinely exposed. Water, salts, limestone dust, etc., are all more likely culprits.

There may be traces of formaldehyde in some latex, also unlikely to cause oxidation.
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Old 02-18-16, 08:08 AM
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Yes, I refilled both wheels early this year. I used those websites as well before I chose to go with Orange Seal. My case maybe an isolated one.

Originally Posted by CliffordK
Here is a trial done with various types of sealant and tubes.

Tire Sealants - Slowtwitch.com
Sealant Test - Part 1 - Slowtwitch.com
Sealant Test - Part 2 - Slowtwitch.com

One can't necessarily compare it to tubeless, but the Orange sealant was rated highly.

One is supposed to periodically renew the sealant. Did you do that?

It is also possible the period or reduced pressure helped the tube seal independent of the sealant used.

Nonetheless, it sounds like your adding Stans gave you impressive results.
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Old 02-18-16, 08:23 AM
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Stan's claims they changed the formula to prevent corrosion. I've been using Orange Seal in my Shimano wheels, with good results. No Stan's boogers when it dries out.
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Old 02-18-16, 10:18 AM
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These are the pictures I took from early this year. Orange Seal also boogered up. It was fairly easy to clean up but it took time.



Originally Posted by gsa103
Stan's claims they changed the formula to prevent corrosion. I've been using Orange Seal in my Shimano wheels, with good results. No Stan's boogers when it dries out.
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Old 02-18-16, 11:27 AM
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I may be taking this ammonia thing too far, however, ammonia causes hydrogen embrittlement when it is in contact with aluminum. Over time aluminum alloy loses it's elasticity. Something I learned in aviation mechanics school.
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Old 02-19-16, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by prankster
Pictures that I found online showed the corrosion on the inner rim. I thought there was no way water from outside could get into the inner rim.
There's moisture in the air that goes into the tire, more in some locales than others.
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Old 02-19-16, 01:07 PM
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I used TruckerCo Cream Latex Sealant. I bought it instead of Stan's because it was a lot cheaper (like $16 for a liter, including a syringe). It seems to work ok, but now that it's gone (100ml ea. into 6 tires (3 tubeless, 3 tubes), 200ml more to re-do two tires that suffered trauma, and 200ml lost in the learning process) I plan to mix up some homebrew and switch to that.
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Old 01-10-17, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by OshkoshBiker
I may be taking this ammonia thing too far, however, ammonia causes hydrogen embrittlement when it is in contact with aluminum. Over time aluminum alloy loses it's elasticity. Something I learned in aviation mechanics school.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I have only used Orange Seal. I have had no issues. My LBS recommended it and that's what they use. I have been concerned about the corrosion ammonia causes on aluminum and that Stans supposedly had ammonia and Orange seal did not. Earlier last year I called Orange Seal and talked to the guy directly and he said "No manufacturer will endorse ANY sealant in their rims but that Shimano had recently said that the only sealant they would approve of was Orange Seal". He didn't say they endorsed it or anything like that but that Shimano was saying they felt it wouldn't hurt their rims. Can someone shed the light on the truth? Does Stans really cause an issue? I have expensive wheels on my bikes and I would be pissed if i changed tires and saw pitting from corrosion.
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Old 01-10-17, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by trail_monkey
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I have only used Orange Seal. I have had no issues. My LBS recommended it and that's what they use. I have been concerned about the corrosion ammonia causes on aluminum and that Stans supposedly had ammonia and Orange seal did not. Earlier last year I called Orange Seal and talked to the guy directly and he said "No manufacturer will endorse ANY sealant in their rims but that Shimano had recently said that the only sealant they would approve of was Orange Seal". He didn't say they endorsed it or anything like that but that Shimano was saying they felt it wouldn't hurt their rims. Can someone shed the light on the truth? Does Stans really cause an issue? I have expensive wheels on my bikes and I would be pissed if i changed tires and saw pitting from corrosion.
I've used both Stan's and Orange Seal in Stan's wheels (aluminum) and Crankbrothers Cobalt 3 (aluminum) and Cobalt 11 wheels (carbon). I too panicked especially with the aluminum ones. I had Stan's in their wheels for a year and half and in the Crankbrothers aluminum for 8 months. Neither had any hint of corrosion. Nonetheless, I put Orange Seal in both for peace of mind. It too, shows no corrosion after a year's use. FWIW, my carbon wheels aren't effected by either (pretty much shouldn't be affected by anything except petroleum-based stuff). Anyway, I ran out of Orange Seal and put Stan's back in the aluminum rims with still zero effect. Two LBSs told me that they have never seen any damage from Stan's and they go back and forth using Stan's and Orange Seal on both personal and customer bikes. As for sealing and boogers, overall, Stan's seals quicker to me but boogers up more or produces stanimals aka Stan's coral inside tires. I haven't seen that with Orange Seal, it just dries up. I have seen Stan's turn clear yellow in two tires with no trace of tan latex left but it still did seal punctures. This was on the same bike and from the same bottle but only on a rear wheel. Stan's rep could not explain it. Bottomline, I'm ok with using both products. There's a new sealant out on the market from Red Monkey who make mtb grips called Monkey Goo. It's ammonia free and looks good in their youtube video. Price is a couple bucks less than OS.

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Old 01-10-17, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bikeme
I've used both Stan's and Orange Seal in Stan's wheels (aluminum) and Crankbrothers Cobalt 3 (aluminum) and Cobalt 11 wheels (carbon). I too panicked especially with the aluminum ones. I had Stan's in their wheels for a year and half and in the Crankbrothers aluminum for 8 months. Neither had any hint of corrosion. Nonetheless, I put Orange Seal in both for peace of mind. It too, shows no corrosion after a year's use. FWIW, my carbon wheels aren't effected by either (pretty much shouldn't be affected by anything except petroleum-based stuff). Anyway, I ran out of Orange Seal and put Stan's back in the aluminum rims with still zero effect. Two LBSs told me that they have never seen any damage from Stan's and they go back and forth using Stan's and Orange Seal on both personal and customer bikes. As for sealing and boogers, overall, Stan's seals quicker to me but boogers up more or produces stanimals aka Stan's coral inside tires. I haven't seen that with Orange Seal, it just dries up. I have seen Stan's turn clear yellow in two tires with no trace of tan latex left but it still did seal punctures. This was on the same bike and from the same bottle but only on a rear wheel. Stan's rep could not explain it. Bottomline, I'm ok with using both products. There's a new sealant out on the market from Red Monkey who make mtb grips called Monkey Goo. It's ammonia free and looks good in their youtube video. Price is a couple bucks less than OS.
That's promising to know. Thanks for the info.
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Old 01-11-17, 12:04 AM
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I like TruckerCo Cream a lot more than Stan's. Lasts longer without drying out, doesn't soak into the tire carcass like Stan's (by the time I would be ready to throw a tire away, it would have gained noticeable "Stan's Weight.") Also cheaper, and the included injector is worlds better than the Stan's syringe. Flat-prevention wise, they seem equal to me-- but the Cream beats out Stan's on price and service interval for sure.
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Old 01-11-17, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by trail_monkey
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I have only used Orange Seal. I have had no issues. My LBS recommended it and that's what they use. I have been concerned about the corrosion ammonia causes on aluminum and that Stans supposedly had ammonia and Orange seal did not. Earlier last year I called Orange Seal and talked to the guy directly and he said "No manufacturer will endorse ANY sealant in their rims but that Shimano had recently said that the only sealant they would approve of was Orange Seal". He didn't say they endorsed it or anything like that but that Shimano was saying they felt it wouldn't hurt their rims. Can someone shed the light on the truth? Does Stans really cause an issue? I have expensive wheels on my bikes and I would be pissed if i changed tires and saw pitting from corrosion.
In the past I have used Stans in DuraAce tubeless specfifc wheels TL designation. C24's. I found after 8months that something caused some marking on the inner surface of the rim. Texture and colour change. I don't know if this was good, bad , indifferent. But the only thing used was Stans and Hutchinson's tyres. Then about 16months I gave up using tubeless.If I were to go back I would consider another bRand to Stan's. Unless something has dramatically changed.

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Old 01-11-17, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by OshkoshBiker
I may be taking this ammonia thing too far, however, ammonia causes hydrogen embrittlement when it is in contact with aluminum. Over time aluminum alloy loses it's elasticity. Something I learned in aviation mechanics school.
Becomes more brittle.
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Old 01-11-17, 11:39 AM
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I have been using Stan's sealant with Hutchinson tubeless tires on DuraAce TL C24 since 2011. Stan's sealant performs very well. I have had only 2 flats using this combination. One was when the tire tore, and the other was when I had insufficient sealant in the tire. I have had a few punctures, but stan's always sealed them successfully.
Now the negative part. I had serious corrosion in the rims to the extent I have replaced one original DuraAce rim with an Ultegra rim. The corrosion was so bad it corroded the valve hole, and I couldn't seal the tire. Shimano supposedly has improved the allow on the new rim. I haven't evaluated this yet. I also started using Bongrader sealant. So far it seals well, but I haven't evaluated the corrosion effect, if any, or how easy it is to clean. Stan's gummy residue it very hard to clean successfully from the rim.
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Old 01-11-17, 04:43 PM
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^^ makes sense to me, given my experience also

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Old 01-11-17, 06:42 PM
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story heard, worst part of a slime tube was when the tire blew off the rim
it was hard to catch the cat that was standing by the bike then,
to wash that green goo off of it..
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Old 01-11-17, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by yannisg
I have been using Stan's sealant with Hutchinson tubeless tires on DuraAce TL C24 since 2011. Stan's sealant performs very well. I have had only 2 flats using this combination. One was when the tire tore, and the other was when I had insufficient sealant in the tire. I have had a few punctures, but stan's always sealed them successfully.
Now the negative part. I had serious corrosion in the rims to the extent I have replaced one original DuraAce rim with an Ultegra rim. The corrosion was so bad it corroded the valve hole, and I couldn't seal the tire. Shimano supposedly has improved the allow on the new rim. I haven't evaluated this yet. I also started using Bongrader sealant. So far it seals well, but I haven't evaluated the corrosion effect, if any, or how easy it is to clean. Stan's gummy residue it very hard to clean successfully from the rim.
YannisG
So why do some people have issues and others do not?
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Old 01-20-17, 01:21 PM
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Trail monkey, Hi
I can't answer why some people have issues and other don't. Regarding tubeless road bike tires my riding conditions are very good, little rain, no salt on the roads. So I don't think, in my case, that the environmental conditions have anything to do with the rim corrosion. I am in the process of evaluating the new Ultegra rim and the Bongrager sealant.
However, when comparing the corrosion impact of the sealant on al rims the alloy is different from different manufacturers and differs from generation to generation from the same manufacturer.
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Old 01-20-17, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by trail_monkey
So why do some people have issues and others do not?
Most rims are anodized, and the coating protects the rim. Earlier version of the C24 are not anodized and have bare Al, which can be readily attacked. It's unclear if Shimano has anodized the newer versions.

Summary:
1) It only effects Shimano rims.
2) It may not even effect ALL Shimano rims.
3) It may depend on other factors as well.

I personally have DA 9000 C24 rims with tubeless OS. Before I installed the wheels, throughly coated the interior with Boeshield to protect the rim.
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Old 01-20-17, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103
Most rims are anodized, and the coating protects the rim. Earlier version of the C24 are not anodized and have bare Al, which can be readily attacked. It's unclear if Shimano has anodized the newer versions.

Summary:
1) It only effects Shimano rims.
2) It may not even effect ALL Shimano rims.
3) It may depend on other factors as well.

I personally have DA 9000 C24 rims with tubeless OS. Before I installed the wheels, throughly coated the interior with Boeshield to protect the rim.
That makes sense
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Old 01-25-17, 01:23 PM
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I have used Caffelatex on my Shimano Deore XT wheels for 3 years with no sign of corrosion on the rims.
Unless the XT rim alloy is different than the DA it points to Stan's sealant causing this corrosion. On the other hand the alloy used by Shimano should not corrode from a sealant.
However, as mentioned previously, Stan's sealant does an excellent of sealing punctures.
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Old 02-22-17, 10:11 PM
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I've had 4 or 5 bikes with Shimano XTR UST wheels over the last 10+ years. The first set (M960 series) were with aluminum (don't know the grade) rims, and those since then (M970 & M980 series) had scandium alloy rims.

I've never used a tubeless-ready tire. Instead, I've always used tube-type tires (lighter & faster) as tubeless with sealant on and off since the early days of tubeless, and have developed a love/hate relationship with tubeless in general. There is definitely a noticeable improvement in performance and ride quality going this route, not to mention the obvious flat prevention. But with that comes risk and a few significant downsides....

I've never used a Stan's product. When Stan's sealant was first introduced, I figured I could reverse engineer it and make my own by thinning out mold builder liquid latex rubber with water. I used a product from a company called Castin' Craft. It worked great as a tire sealant, but it contains a lot of ammonia and I didn't know way back then that this can cause corrosion. In less than a year my $850 XTR M960 wheelset was corroded. But then the new XTR M970 series came out shortly after and I got ride of the entire bike and built a new one with all new M970 stuff.

I still didn't give it any thought and ran more of the homebrew sealant. And again, in about a year or so, my rims were corroded on the inside and now starting to crack, starting around the valve hole. It got to the point to where I could no longer run the tires tubeless because air would leak through the cracked rim. I then ran the wheels & tires with tubes until eventually the crack became so bad the wheels were unsafe to ride. Luckily for me, Shimano did replace the entire wheelset under warranty. This happened TWICE. After the second time I went back to using tubes for quite some time (a couple of years). I've not used the homebrew sealant since then.

On my current bike (which I've now had for 5 years) I've alternated between using tubes & tubeless with the green Slime brand sealant on and off. I had to replace the M970 wheels on it 2 years ago yet AGAIN due to cracks caused by sealant-induced corrosion. This time my wheels were way beyond any warranty period so I sold them on eBay "as-is" for whatever I could get and replaced them with a new pair of XTR M980 wheels (which I still have). I have been very reluctant to run any sealant of any kind in these wheels but that being said I have used the Slime from time to time and while I haven't used it very much in these wheels it does seem to have caused some slight discoloration to the black anodizing as well as minor pitting next to the valve hole - a sure sign to STOP using this crap at once. I heard a lot of very good things about Orange Seal so I did try some of it in these wheels as well. I don't think I used it long enough to tell if there were any ill effects caused to the rims but it DID cause my $65 Maxxis Maxxlite tires to blister in numerous spots on the tread area. I've never had that happen before, ever. And I've used this model of tire extensively. This tells me that somehow the sealant is seeping into the tire and/or having some sort of chemical reaction with the materials.

As much as I hate to do it, I think I'll bite the bullet and go back to tubes (at least for the time being). The benefits of this tubeless crap sure don't seem to outweigh the risks, damage caused, and resulting expense. I think I can deal with the frustration of a few flats and decreased performance better than $65 tires that have been compromised and/or $1000 wheels that have been damaged (or ruined). As far as I'm concerned, there is no liquid sealant out there that's completely safe and foolproof.
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