Carbon or Bust
03-20-19, 08:52 PM
#51
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Yes, evidence goes a long way to prove, or disprove, claims. Without evidence, opinions are just that opinions based upon personal biases.
I have crashed on bikes using all sorts of condtruction material, steel, aluminium, titanium and yes carbon.
In fact I have crashed twice with the C60. First time crashed against a K-rail on PCH and broke a finger. The C60 was fine. I crashed another time, also with the C60, hit my head and suffered a subdural hematoma. Once again, the C60 was not damaged.
Finally, last year my car was rear-ended with the C60 on the Thule hitch rack. The car suffered damage, the rack was totaled. The C60 suffered only cosmetic damage. I sent it to Calfee where the bike was examined and declared safe to ride.
I support your enthusiasm for steel bikes; two of mine are good old steel. I also support your decision not to go with a CF bike. CF is not for everyone. Interetingly enough, you would buy a saddle with carbon rails, none of my saddles have carbon rails
I just have a problem with claims that lack the evidence or science to back them up.
Ride safely, ride long.
Yes you are right about evidence being required. Unfortunately the type of evidence we would like just isn't available in most cases (as you know). Usually there is no third party to scrutinize the destroyed parts and make their findings public. Or any way to know if the bike had been previously crashed or dropped. I'm glad people are out riding their carbon fiber bikes, but it's not for me. I need something durable enough to not need to send it in for an ultrasound exam if it happens to fall over or crash.
Really the thing I'd be most concerned about with cf is manufacturing defects. This isn't the aerospace industry and these companies can't do the type of quality control that would convince me to buy.
Anyway, sorry about your crashes and glad the bike is okay. Here's a short discussion concerning a racer's carbon rims breaking, apparently due to manufacturing defect...
03-20-19, 09:02 PM
#52
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Yes, evidence goes a long way to prove, or disprove, claims. Without evidence, opinions are just that opinions based upon personal biases.
I have crashed on bikes using all sorts of condtruction material, steel, aluminium, titanium and yes carbon.
In fact I have crashed twice with the C60. First time crashed against a K-rail on PCH and broke a finger. The C60 was fine. I crashed another time, also with the C60, hit my head and suffered a subdural hematoma. Once again, the C60 was not damaged.
Finally, last year my car was rear-ended with the C60 on the Thule hitch rack. The car suffered damage, the rack was totaled. The C60 suffered only cosmetic damage. I sent it to Calfee where the bike was examined and declared safe to ride.
I support your enthusiasm for steel bikes; two of mine are good old steel. I also support your decision not to go with a CF bike. CF is not for everyone. Interetingly enough, you would buy a saddle with carbon rails, none of my saddles have carbon rails
I just have a problem with claims that lack the evidence or science to back them up.
Ride safely, ride long.
03-20-19, 09:48 PM
#53
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Ben
03-20-19, 10:11 PM
#54
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By far and away the worst bike I have owned was an aluminum frame / carbon fork / carbon stays bike . It was very stiff and transmitted every bit of road vibration to you even with 25 mm tires which were the largest ones that could be fitted to it. Granted I did not find it an especially comfortable bike because I am larger rider , but honestly I do not think a frame that has a supple , compliant ride is a bad thing. The vintage steel road bikes I own are fast enough to satisfy any need for speed I have , and they satisfy it comfortably.
As an aside no argument can be made from my perspective for the weight savings carbon offers since I know that a steel bike can be made just as light as a carbon bike ... The Rodriguez Outlaw is a good example.
As an aside no argument can be made from my perspective for the weight savings carbon offers since I know that a steel bike can be made just as light as a carbon bike ... The Rodriguez Outlaw is a good example.
The reality is that quality steel frames aren't that much cheaper to make than similar quality aluminum and even carbon frames. It's a hard sell when a new quality steel frameset will be around $500-1000 retail and you can modernize a $100 30 year old steel bike that's not too different. The other fact of the matter in regard's to the OP's specific complaint is that most commuter bikes aren't made from carbon and most people don't commute on bikes. There's not much downside to a carbon bike for recreational use which will be stored inside, which is what happens to a lot of nicer steel bikes anyways. On the current crop of fatter tired bikes, there's not that much to be gained from a steel frame either. There's the supposed durability which is generally inversely related to quality, and repairability, which will often costs as much as replacement. There's the mythical planing which requires you to power down on the pedals before you can feel it, and you have to find a specific frame that works for you and your pedaling style, it's not a property inherent to steel. There's personal preference of course, but there's also steel bikes available for people that prefer them.
03-21-19, 12:08 AM
#56
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The really nice use case for them is on TT/Tri bikes with aerobars. Electronic shifting allows you to shift from both the base bars and the aerobars. It basically does for aerobars what STI did for drop bars, allowing stuff like easy shifting out of the saddle.
Also, in a perfect world, we'd have synchro half-step. With current technology it would allow a derailleur drivetrain to have a 500%+ gear range, small even gear steps, and shift like a 1x.
The will to sell it doesn't seem to exist, though.
03-21-19, 05:24 AM
#57
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I am certainly carbon curious, but last year when I decided to spring for a new frameset I went for a steel Black Mountain road frame, and that one quickly became my favorite in a large fleet. Still, I have a milestone birthday next year (60!), and will be tempted to spring for a CF adventure bike of some sort. I don’t need electronic shifting, but the ability to run wide tires, disc brakes, and light weight, which makes a big difference on those last hills on a 200k ride: all very appealing.
03-21-19, 05:52 AM
#58
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Horses for courses. I race and train on aluminum and carbon, I do all my commuting and grocery shopping on steel. No need to worry about what anyone else is doing or what the industry is hyping this season, just focus on making your bikes fit your needs and wants.
03-21-19, 07:18 AM
#59
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A steel frame loaded with carbon fiber parts.
The reality is that quality steel frames aren't that much cheaper to make than similar quality aluminum and even carbon frames. It's a hard sell when a new quality steel frameset will be around $500-1000 retail and you can modernize a $100 30 year old steel bike that's not too different. The other fact of the matter in regard's to the OP's specific complaint is that most commuter bikes aren't made from carbon and most people don't commute on bikes. There's not much downside to a carbon bike for recreational use which will be stored inside, which is what happens to a lot of nicer steel bikes anyways. On the current crop of fatter tired bikes, there's not that much to be gained from a steel frame either. There's the supposed durability which is generally inversely related to quality, and repairability, which will often costs as much as replacement. There's the mythical planing which requires you to power down on the pedals before you can feel it, and you have to find a specific frame that works for you and your pedaling style, it's not a property inherent to steel. There's personal preference of course, but there's also steel bikes available for people that prefer them.
The reality is that quality steel frames aren't that much cheaper to make than similar quality aluminum and even carbon frames. It's a hard sell when a new quality steel frameset will be around $500-1000 retail and you can modernize a $100 30 year old steel bike that's not too different. The other fact of the matter in regard's to the OP's specific complaint is that most commuter bikes aren't made from carbon and most people don't commute on bikes. There's not much downside to a carbon bike for recreational use which will be stored inside, which is what happens to a lot of nicer steel bikes anyways. On the current crop of fatter tired bikes, there's not that much to be gained from a steel frame either. There's the supposed durability which is generally inversely related to quality, and repairability, which will often costs as much as replacement. There's the mythical planing which requires you to power down on the pedals before you can feel it, and you have to find a specific frame that works for you and your pedaling style, it's not a property inherent to steel. There's personal preference of course, but there's also steel bikes available for people that prefer them.
Your're actually forgetting something... Steel does indeed flex which attributes to it's ride qualities and durability , carbon doesnt which also attributes to it's ability to spectacular fail catastrophically .
I do not disagree with a lot of what you assert though. The recreational rider or racer even probably isn't commuting or using their bike outside of those pursuits you've covered already .
03-21-19, 10:39 AM
#60
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I catch myself...
….thinking 🤔 I know anything.
We can debate this crap all we want, if that’s our gig.
It really doesn't matter, because we don't make much difference in the market.
Shops will survive without us.
Reality: the past preident of my local club is smart, frugal, and just got a new carbon disc Di2 road bike that can run 34’s. She rides $3500 miles/year.
She’s had aluminum and early carbon bikes. Her new bike looks a lot like my steel Wraith and likely weighs more. Who am I to judge? Nobody.
Heck, I had tape that matched the cages on her new bike and gave it to her. #%#$ the debate, let's grin and go riding.
Reality: @ldmataya and @Chrome Molly are fast, fluid riders. More so on carbon wonders. OK, you'll hear them coming on the carbon things....
Reality: Shops may have to sell what they are told to sell. Not every shop has the latitude to sell what makes them feel better.
I have no idea what pressures they face to do so, but they are real, and I’m in no position to judge. To think a shop should sell or push what I prefer is stupid.
Once a person is on a bike and in my pace line, my preference is for his/her presence there, rather than the hole left by their absence.
I really don’t care what they are riding.
We can debate this crap all we want, if that’s our gig.
It really doesn't matter, because we don't make much difference in the market.
Shops will survive without us.
Reality: the past preident of my local club is smart, frugal, and just got a new carbon disc Di2 road bike that can run 34’s. She rides $3500 miles/year.
She’s had aluminum and early carbon bikes. Her new bike looks a lot like my steel Wraith and likely weighs more. Who am I to judge? Nobody.
Heck, I had tape that matched the cages on her new bike and gave it to her. #%#$ the debate, let's grin and go riding.
Reality: @ldmataya and @Chrome Molly are fast, fluid riders. More so on carbon wonders. OK, you'll hear them coming on the carbon things....
Reality: Shops may have to sell what they are told to sell. Not every shop has the latitude to sell what makes them feel better.
I have no idea what pressures they face to do so, but they are real, and I’m in no position to judge. To think a shop should sell or push what I prefer is stupid.
Once a person is on a bike and in my pace line, my preference is for his/her presence there, rather than the hole left by their absence.
I really don’t care what they are riding.
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 03-21-19 at 05:31 PM.
03-21-19, 10:51 AM
#61
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I'm of mixed feelings, I ride and love both carbon and steel. My worst crash was on a carbon Roubaix. The bike was fine, I was toast. While restoring a '73 Super Course, I found cracks at the seat post/seat stay junction. $40 rebraze fixed it. 2500 miles with no further issue. My score is steel 1, carbon 0 as far as possible failures. I have one bike where the only non carbon parts are drivetrain, chain, saddle, brakes, pedals and screws. So far so good. Raleigh and Salsa are two modern makers that I know still makes some nice steel frames, if you are of that persuasion. I split my miles pretty much 50/50 between carbon and steel rides.
03-21-19, 01:31 PM
#62
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CF spontaneous asplosion hysteria that's been going on since the first CF bike was sold to the public......
It will most likely be around till most of us who grew up with mostly steel bikes, die off.....
For me personally, I have too many other things to worry about, every day, to be scared off my CF bikes and miss out on the nice rides they give me.
It will most likely be around till most of us who grew up with mostly steel bikes, die off.....
For me personally, I have too many other things to worry about, every day, to be scared off my CF bikes and miss out on the nice rides they give me.
03-21-19, 01:50 PM
#63
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I'm not against anything. Well, not many things, anyway. I don't see myself buying a new bike soon, but maybe I'll buy one, one day. I rode @KonAaron Snake's Specialized Diverge for a day, and it was outstanding. It was a fairly cold day, and I remember waiting for a traffic light with my leg slung along the top tube, and it wasn't as cold as a steel frame would be, of course. It rode very nicely.
Carbon is a sensible material to use for large scale production. Steel seems best for custom builds. And I guess aluminum is now in the middle.
Carbon is a sensible material to use for large scale production. Steel seems best for custom builds. And I guess aluminum is now in the middle.
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
03-21-19, 03:55 PM
#64
Senior Member
CF spontaneous asplosion hysteria that's been going on since the first CF bike was sold to the public......
It will most likely be around till most of us who grew up with mostly steel bikes, die off.....
For me personally, I have too many other things to worry about, every day, to be scared off my CF bikes and miss out on the nice rides they give me.
It will most likely be around till most of us who grew up with mostly steel bikes, die off.....
For me personally, I have too many other things to worry about, every day, to be scared off my CF bikes and miss out on the nice rides they give me.
I’d day it’s not hysteria when numerous documented incidents have occurred . Never mind the lawsuits that have followed because riders were injured in some cases seriously. Bare in mind I’m not saying it’s epidemic but it’s not isolated hype either . Additionally Carbon bikes seem to have a “shelf life” for lack of a better term, you can’t in all fairness say the same for a properly cared for welded or brazed metal frame be that aluminum or steel.
Having said that I’m all for choice and people buying what pleases them. I’m betting in another 50 years a currently vintage steel bike will still be rideable , probably not so much for the current carbon crop, and definitely not the 1st and 2nd generations of CF.
03-21-19, 04:28 PM
#65
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If I wanted a bike to last forever, I'd get titanium. But they have CF forks!
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03-21-19, 04:38 PM
#66
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I have owned two carbon bikes, an early Specialized Epic mountain bike that was screwed and glued and a Trek 2300 that was also screwed and glued. They did nothing better than an aluminum or steel frame. Working in a bike shop I have the opportunity to ride a whole lot of modern carbon frames and I will say they are superior to the ones I owned back in the day.
One thing they don't do is make me any faster than I am on a metal frame. They are quicker to sprint, but overall I am still slow as always. Carbon does have a muted presence, road noise does not seem to be as up front as a metal frame, however changing tires to a wider tire can do the same thing. Do it with a really good high count tpi tire and it is amplified as that much better.
Carbon is great, metal is great. Just ride the thing!
One thing they don't do is make me any faster than I am on a metal frame. They are quicker to sprint, but overall I am still slow as always. Carbon does have a muted presence, road noise does not seem to be as up front as a metal frame, however changing tires to a wider tire can do the same thing. Do it with a really good high count tpi tire and it is amplified as that much better.
Carbon is great, metal is great. Just ride the thing!
03-21-19, 05:25 PM
#69
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Lawsuits don't legitimize anything. They are about money and convincing 12 idiots to blame somebody, generally using something besides facts. The victim mentality has been carefully grown and nurtured for decades, and caters to a de-educated population that has been grown and nurtured just as carefully.
03-21-19, 05:33 PM
#70
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03-21-19, 05:56 PM
#71
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Yes, me too, but sometimes it does get a bit tiring to keep seeing it come up ever few weeks in this forum. At least other threads like ones for bent forks seem a bit more worth our time.....and still sometimes be entertaining....
Maybe I'm just getting older and less patient?
Maybe I'm just getting older and less patient?
03-21-19, 06:22 PM
#72
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Lawsuits don't legitimize anything. They are about money and convincing 12 idiots to blame somebody, generally using something besides facts. The victim mentality has been carefully grown and nurtured for decades, and caters to a de-educated population that has been grown and nurtured just as carefully.
Actually I consider paralyzation a pretty legitimate lawsuit. which has happened in at least one incident where a carbon frame shattered at downhill speed with a rider. I am not saying every lawsuit is as legitimate but there are actually several very legitimate cases of riders being injured by carbon frame bikes that failed.
Do I care if you or anyone else buys one ? Not really and do please treat yourself if that's what you want, but at the same time I would never consider one. The technology has been around long enough at this point they should be able to build a safe bike, but the number of failures since the material has been used to make bikes belies that .
Trek That Snapped In Half Last Year
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03-21-19, 07:02 PM
#73
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I remember when the Specialized Epic was introduced. I thought it would be perfect for PBP.
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03-21-19, 07:06 PM
#74
Senior Member
I currently own one (an 88 model) that I am restoring that seems to be ok and does not have any issues with the carbon tubes separating from the lugs which these bikes were known to suffer from. Most likely I will not keep it partially because I am inherently distrustful of the material in general, and most CF bikes that I am aware of are not rated for heavier riders which is what I consider to be another failing .
03-21-19, 07:25 PM
#75
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I currently own one (an 88 model) that I am restoring that seems to be ok and does not have any issues with the carbon tubes separating from the lugs which these bikes were known to suffer from. Most likely I will not keep it partially because I am inherently distrustful of the material in general, and most CF bikes that I am aware of are not rated for heavier riders which is what I consider to be another failing .