Reynolds 753 - tell me about this iconic tubeset and the riders who favored it.
06-06-11, 09:43 PM
#1
Mostly Mischief
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Reynolds 753 - tell me about this iconic tubeset and the riders who favored it.
We just had a “Show Your 753 Bikes” thread, but that shouldn’t keep anyone from indulging once again. But really, besides merely ogling pics I hope this thread will produce good background info, together with answering a few questions I have.
753 - Heat-Treated Manganese-Molybdenum. Essentially 531 made with reduced wall thickness and heat treated to increase tensile strength. From the Internet.
I own a couple of 753 frames, and ride them a lot together with 531's. But, honest to god, my insensitive self cannot detect any added qualities with the 753. So those of you with experience, wisdom or purely anecdotal snippets, pls step forward!
Lemond rode it. Hampsten rode it. Hinault too. But who were the first pro riders to get on 753? Introduction was in 1975 or 77, and it was produced at least until 1985, with the over sized tube set going into the nineties. Or so I've read. Which team frames were built in 753, besides the one shown below?
In a recent thread a highly regarded BF'er mentions the increased flex of 753. But many sources mentions that Merckx found it a bit harsh. To me these statements contradict each other. Unless it was horizontally compliant, vertically stiff
Reynolds had special requirements for the manufacturers allowed to use 753. One of our frequent posters here is a 753 certified frame builder from the Trek of old. From his writings I gather that heat treating makes steel hard, but brittle, like drywall screws. Where’s the advantage to this in bike frames? Mostly reduced weight, right? Does this induce a rider weight limit, per chance?
One shouldn't cold set heat treated steel, but spreading it a few mm to the next size of hubs for that retro-roadie upgrade must have been done by some of you tinkerers out there? Share the experience, please.
753 - Heat-Treated Manganese-Molybdenum. Essentially 531 made with reduced wall thickness and heat treated to increase tensile strength. From the Internet.
I own a couple of 753 frames, and ride them a lot together with 531's. But, honest to god, my insensitive self cannot detect any added qualities with the 753. So those of you with experience, wisdom or purely anecdotal snippets, pls step forward!
Lemond rode it. Hampsten rode it. Hinault too. But who were the first pro riders to get on 753? Introduction was in 1975 or 77, and it was produced at least until 1985, with the over sized tube set going into the nineties. Or so I've read. Which team frames were built in 753, besides the one shown below?
In a recent thread a highly regarded BF'er mentions the increased flex of 753. But many sources mentions that Merckx found it a bit harsh. To me these statements contradict each other. Unless it was horizontally compliant, vertically stiff
Reynolds had special requirements for the manufacturers allowed to use 753. One of our frequent posters here is a 753 certified frame builder from the Trek of old. From his writings I gather that heat treating makes steel hard, but brittle, like drywall screws. Where’s the advantage to this in bike frames? Mostly reduced weight, right? Does this induce a rider weight limit, per chance?
One shouldn't cold set heat treated steel, but spreading it a few mm to the next size of hubs for that retro-roadie upgrade must have been done by some of you tinkerers out there? Share the experience, please.
Last edited by jan nikolajsen; 06-06-11 at 10:11 PM.
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06-07-11, 02:51 AM
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Jan Legrand was the most famous Dutch certified builder for this material, he provided most pro's in the Ti-Raleigh squad with these frames and he also build the Gazelle Champion Mondial AA 753 series bikes. Here's some info on them. https://fivenineclimber.com/bikes/gaz...eynolds_80.htm
06-07-11, 04:16 AM
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The goal of a 753-type steel is greater tensile strength or resistance to fatigue failure due to small repetitive (tens of millions of cycles) flex cycles. The greater strength allows one to build a durable frame with thinner and hence lighter tubes. The collateral damage from a metallurgical point of view is a material that is more brittle, and hence cannot withstand large bends (such as cold-setting the rear triangle or repetitive fork rake changes) as well as less brittle materials.
An additional benefit of the thinner tube is a more flexy or lively-feeling frame. If you are a reader of Jan Heine, the frames that plane better have tubes with thinner walls. Best way to achieve this without loss of durability is to use an advanced steel alloy like 753 or the newer, even-better ones.
No clue why EM felt it was more harsh.
Re rider weight: it should be possible to make a 753 tube and a 531 tube that have identical durability for the same rider weight. If you do so, the 753 tube should be lighter and more flexy.
But being an inveterate cheapskate, I've never owned one.
An additional benefit of the thinner tube is a more flexy or lively-feeling frame. If you are a reader of Jan Heine, the frames that plane better have tubes with thinner walls. Best way to achieve this without loss of durability is to use an advanced steel alloy like 753 or the newer, even-better ones.
No clue why EM felt it was more harsh.
Re rider weight: it should be possible to make a 753 tube and a 531 tube that have identical durability for the same rider weight. If you do so, the 753 tube should be lighter and more flexy.
But being an inveterate cheapskate, I've never owned one.
06-07-11, 04:47 AM
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I'd personally love to see a reliable source that indicated that Merckx found 753 "harsh." Merckx was a known fan of comfort vs. aggression in his frame designs, and he built 753 frames for Hampsten, among others, to use in mountain stages. A small rider on an overbuilt frame could find the ride harsh, but Merckx was hardly small, and it would be tough to overbuild a frame in 753 in his size.
Ti Raleigh would have been the first team to get 753 frames in the mid-70's. The original 753 was very "trick" for the time, and the frames experienced a number of failures. It was also difficult to braze - the original Reynolds certification "test" was taken seriously by framebuilders, and there are anecdotal stories of skilled builders who had been brazing for years building their certification frames in low light to be able to see the flame and control the heat better. Later, Reynolds made some changes that increased the margin for error and durability of 753, and the certification became more of a formality, with much less brazing required to pass the test.
It would have been unusual for "teams" to be equipped with 753 bikes, as the use of 753 would tend to be selected for a particular rider or riders within a particular team, sometimes even for a particular race or portion of the season. But there are exceptions of course- the women's 7-Eleven squad rode Trek 753 frames, but I don't know if they were built for all of the riders - John Thompson might. Also of course the La Vie Claire squad circa 1986. By this point, the durability of 753 was not so much of an issue. One of the most famous 753 bikes in the pro peloton was the climbing special used by the Swiss climber Beat Breu in the early-mid-80's - it was one of the first, really dedicated "climbing specials," with CLB brakes, resin brake and shift levers, and no bar tape.
I've owned a number of 753 bikes, and really like the way my Trek 170 in particular rides. I'm a tall, relatively thin sit-and-spin type of guy.
Ti Raleigh would have been the first team to get 753 frames in the mid-70's. The original 753 was very "trick" for the time, and the frames experienced a number of failures. It was also difficult to braze - the original Reynolds certification "test" was taken seriously by framebuilders, and there are anecdotal stories of skilled builders who had been brazing for years building their certification frames in low light to be able to see the flame and control the heat better. Later, Reynolds made some changes that increased the margin for error and durability of 753, and the certification became more of a formality, with much less brazing required to pass the test.
It would have been unusual for "teams" to be equipped with 753 bikes, as the use of 753 would tend to be selected for a particular rider or riders within a particular team, sometimes even for a particular race or portion of the season. But there are exceptions of course- the women's 7-Eleven squad rode Trek 753 frames, but I don't know if they were built for all of the riders - John Thompson might. Also of course the La Vie Claire squad circa 1986. By this point, the durability of 753 was not so much of an issue. One of the most famous 753 bikes in the pro peloton was the climbing special used by the Swiss climber Beat Breu in the early-mid-80's - it was one of the first, really dedicated "climbing specials," with CLB brakes, resin brake and shift levers, and no bar tape.
I've owned a number of 753 bikes, and really like the way my Trek 170 in particular rides. I'm a tall, relatively thin sit-and-spin type of guy.
Last edited by Picchio Special; 06-07-11 at 05:16 AM.
06-07-11, 06:46 AM
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As everyone knows, I have Steve Bauer's 753 1991 Motorola Merckx (tagged as TSX)...I find it surprisingly heavy and it doesn't ring like a bell when you tap it. In its defense, some of the weight is the Ergo campy group, with deltas, leather saddle and clinchers. The geometry was custom for Bauer, 53 ST, 56 TT, and reflects Merckx's suggestions to the Motorola team of a more relaxed all day rider. I'm not in love with the bike as a rider, but I do love owning it (if that makes sense).
06-07-11, 07:50 AM
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Jan Legrand was the most famous Dutch certified builder for this material, he provided most pro's in the Ti-Raleigh squad with these frames and he also build the Gazelle Champion Mondial AA 753 series bikes. Here's some info on them. https://fivenineclimber.com/bikes/gaz...eynolds_80.htm
(it's his)Not long ago there was a 753 PEKA by Peter Serier advertised on our largest classified site. A beaut and it went quick. I know I must have saved a pic somewhere
06-07-11, 08:13 AM
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I once attempted to cold set the rear triangle of my Reynolds 700 series (not actually 753 but AFAIK the same alloy) frame and managed to crimp one of the chainstays in the process. This could have been the result of my ham-fistedness or it could be that the small elasticity margin of that steel meant the result was always likely.
Once I stopped swearing I managed to insert a piece of Australian mountain ash shaped to fit the inside of the tube and oriented so the end grain buttressed the crimp (wood is strongest and stiffest in compression along the grain). Whether this actually did anything I don't know but frame has survived 10 years since then and is currently being ridden by my son.
BTW the EM harshness story has never made sense to me.
Once I stopped swearing I managed to insert a piece of Australian mountain ash shaped to fit the inside of the tube and oriented so the end grain buttressed the crimp (wood is strongest and stiffest in compression along the grain). Whether this actually did anything I don't know but frame has survived 10 years since then and is currently being ridden by my son.
BTW the EM harshness story has never made sense to me.
Last edited by Mark Kelly; 06-07-11 at 08:22 AM.
06-07-11, 08:18 AM
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Mostly Mischief
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Last edited by jan nikolajsen; 06-07-11 at 08:29 AM.
06-07-11, 10:02 AM
#12
Mostly Mischief
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Some 753 riders and teams, in no particular order:
The famed Dutch TI-Raleigh team reads as a who’s who in Northern European cycling: Manager Peter Post, Jan Raas, Gerrie Kneteman, Hennie Kuiper et al. The team spans many seasons. When and where and who used 753 I don’t know, but being such a successful ensemble I’d guess the tubeset was prominently featured. When Jan Raas won the Paris-Roubaix in ’82 he likely rode a 753 frame.
Beat Breu, as mentioned with a trick weight weenie build. Possibly while riding for Cilo-Aufina in ’82 to ’86.
Greg Lemond, won the TdF on on a 753 Look branded frame in ’86. La Vie Claire team.
Bernard Hinault, lost the TdF on one in ’86. La Vie Claire team.
Andy Hampsten, La Vie Claire team, during the epic ‘86 TdF. Later with Motorola, riding Merckx frames. Some of these were 753.
Steve Bauer, also the La vie Claire of '86, and onwards to Motorola.
Gazelle built 753 frames for many seasons, and sponsored a handful of minor teams of which the DAF Cote d’Or team of ‘81 probably is the best known. The team included Kuiper , Rene Maertens and Roger de Vlaeminck – all riders who’d likely get the highest end frames.
The famed Dutch TI-Raleigh team reads as a who’s who in Northern European cycling: Manager Peter Post, Jan Raas, Gerrie Kneteman, Hennie Kuiper et al. The team spans many seasons. When and where and who used 753 I don’t know, but being such a successful ensemble I’d guess the tubeset was prominently featured. When Jan Raas won the Paris-Roubaix in ’82 he likely rode a 753 frame.
Beat Breu, as mentioned with a trick weight weenie build. Possibly while riding for Cilo-Aufina in ’82 to ’86.
Greg Lemond, won the TdF on on a 753 Look branded frame in ’86. La Vie Claire team.
Bernard Hinault, lost the TdF on one in ’86. La Vie Claire team.
Andy Hampsten, La Vie Claire team, during the epic ‘86 TdF. Later with Motorola, riding Merckx frames. Some of these were 753.
Steve Bauer, also the La vie Claire of '86, and onwards to Motorola.
Gazelle built 753 frames for many seasons, and sponsored a handful of minor teams of which the DAF Cote d’Or team of ‘81 probably is the best known. The team included Kuiper , Rene Maertens and Roger de Vlaeminck – all riders who’d likely get the highest end frames.
Last edited by jan nikolajsen; 06-07-11 at 11:30 AM.
06-07-11, 11:03 AM
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Rivendell sold 753 frames in the mid-to-late 1990s, as I recall. That probably means that Waterford was, too, as Waterford was building for Rivendell in those days.
As far as Merckx and his opinion of 753, I never heard that before. But Merckx was notoriously picky about his bikes, and he was always in search of a more comfortable set-up, to the point of having seat adjustments made on the fly from the team car in the middle of races. A major reason for this was the damage done to his back and hip in his horrific crash in a derny race at the Blois track in 1969 - he has often said that he was never the same after that, especially climbing, and rides that used to be easy for him became suffer-fests. (Considering what he accomplished after that, it is scary to think how many more races he would have dominated had he been 100%.)
But in any event, Merckx was pretty much impossible to keep happy, comfort-wise, on just about anythng, at least after Blois. That needs to be borne in mind when evaluating anything he says about comfort. That doesn't make him wrong (and it does not confirm whether or not he actually said anything about 753), but it does give some insight into why he might be saying something and why it may or may not carry over to any of us.
As far as Merckx and his opinion of 753, I never heard that before. But Merckx was notoriously picky about his bikes, and he was always in search of a more comfortable set-up, to the point of having seat adjustments made on the fly from the team car in the middle of races. A major reason for this was the damage done to his back and hip in his horrific crash in a derny race at the Blois track in 1969 - he has often said that he was never the same after that, especially climbing, and rides that used to be easy for him became suffer-fests. (Considering what he accomplished after that, it is scary to think how many more races he would have dominated had he been 100%.)
But in any event, Merckx was pretty much impossible to keep happy, comfort-wise, on just about anythng, at least after Blois. That needs to be borne in mind when evaluating anything he says about comfort. That doesn't make him wrong (and it does not confirm whether or not he actually said anything about 753), but it does give some insight into why he might be saying something and why it may or may not carry over to any of us.
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06-07-11, 11:07 AM
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Can one consider Supervitus 980 tubing the "poor mans" 753, without the heat treatment?
I've read in many cases that the SV980 has very similar chracteristics as 753 tubing....mostly in the tubeset weight category.
Chombi
I've read in many cases that the SV980 has very similar chracteristics as 753 tubing....mostly in the tubeset weight category.
Chombi
06-07-11, 11:32 AM
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06-07-11, 11:48 AM
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i'm a digit out but love the ride of my 653 Dave Russell (around 8kg). Feels lighter than my 531c frame and extremely comfortable too...
06-07-11, 11:59 AM
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06-07-11, 12:16 PM
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I do know that Pepi Limongi built with 753 when he was workin in Vic and Mike Fraysse's basement at Park Cycle, back in Ridgefield Park...
06-07-11, 12:20 PM
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Someone offered me a Raleigh Panasonic 753R recently. The odd things with this frame are this: a) it is a 62cm and b) it has a conventional tail with caps, no fastback. Does anyone know an explanation for this?
06-07-11, 12:27 PM
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I know I saw a 753 frame Peugeot at one point. I remember being quite surprised that French crafstmanship and Reynolds 753 could exist in the same place.
06-07-11, 12:38 PM
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Chombi
06-07-11, 01:17 PM
#22
Mostly Mischief
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Yes, Reynolds and the French is not a jarring combo, IMO.
After all, some (albeit sketchy) Internet sources seems to believe that LeJeune built the La Vie Claire frames for Hinault and his gang.
After all, some (albeit sketchy) Internet sources seems to believe that LeJeune built the La Vie Claire frames for Hinault and his gang.
06-07-11, 01:54 PM
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Exactly how much weight would be saved between a 753 and a 531 bike built for the same purpose? Or is there no such animal? Just looking for a sense of perspective.
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06-07-11, 02:19 PM
#24
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In the UK Bob Jackson, Harry Quinn, Mercian & Woodrup all built with 753, in addition to Raleigh. Quite possibly others...these are just ones I've come across or read about.
Here is a link to another thread that I had saved discussing 753 with some info on certification.
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-this-frameset
Here is a link to another thread that I had saved discussing 753 with some info on certification.
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-this-frameset
06-07-11, 04:19 PM
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To to exploit the higher strength of the more advanced steel formulations and/or heat treatments, frame builders eventually went to producing larger diameter tubes with very thin walls. The larger tube diameter make the tubes stiffer and more than makes up for the stiffness lost from using thin wall tubing. The practical limit of thinwall advanced steel bikes however is that while they may be strong enough not crack, the thin tubes become very susceptible to damage from dents or from buckeling of the tube wall.