Relatively new to wheelbuilding/truing/fettling
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Relatively new to wheelbuilding/truing/fettling
I've decided to learn to true and possibly rebuild a wheel.
I have noticed that some spokes on this wheel go under another and some go over another spoke. Should the pattern be uniform or have the spokes been laced incorrectly from stock?
I'd like to know as could this throw out truing slightly, or even significantly?
32 spoke front wheel - the J bend spokes are uniformly threaded outward - inward - outward - inward on the hub correctly, yet if I go around all the spokes, one by one some cross under and some cross over. What I'm trying to say is should all outward threaded spokes cross over or under and all inward threaded spokes cross over or under or vice versa, or doesn't it matter?
TIA
I'd rather rebuild the wheel correctly if it's not right.
I have noticed that some spokes on this wheel go under another and some go over another spoke. Should the pattern be uniform or have the spokes been laced incorrectly from stock?
I'd like to know as could this throw out truing slightly, or even significantly?
32 spoke front wheel - the J bend spokes are uniformly threaded outward - inward - outward - inward on the hub correctly, yet if I go around all the spokes, one by one some cross under and some cross over. What I'm trying to say is should all outward threaded spokes cross over or under and all inward threaded spokes cross over or under or vice versa, or doesn't it matter?
TIA
I'd rather rebuild the wheel correctly if it's not right.
#2
Really Old Senior Member
On each side-
Trailing spokes should all be the same.
Leading.......""
On a 3X, first 2 go over and the last 1 goes under.
Trailing spokes should all be the same.
Leading.......""
On a 3X, first 2 go over and the last 1 goes under.
#3
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Every conventionally laced wheel is built with a multiple, repeating pattern of 4 spokes. 2 crossing on one flange, and a similar pair on the other one spoke hole away in the rim.
The 4 spoke motif is repeated a number of times depending on the number of holes, ie 8x for a 32h wheel. Everything should be uniform and repeat identically, usually with the spokes woven over/under at the last cross.
If your wheel has most, but not all, spokes woven over/under at the last cross, the non woven ones may have been replacements done by a sloppy mechanic.
In any case a whee is a model of repetition and uniformity, so either switch a few spokes if that'll solve the issue, or relace completely.
The 4 spoke motif is repeated a number of times depending on the number of holes, ie 8x for a 32h wheel. Everything should be uniform and repeat identically, usually with the spokes woven over/under at the last cross.
If your wheel has most, but not all, spokes woven over/under at the last cross, the non woven ones may have been replacements done by a sloppy mechanic.
In any case a whee is a model of repetition and uniformity, so either switch a few spokes if that'll solve the issue, or relace completely.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Every conventionally laced wheel is built with a multiple, repeating pattern of 4 spokes. 2 crossing on one flange, and a similar pair on the other one spoke hole away in the rim.
The 4 spoke motif is repeated a number of times depending on the number of holes, ie 8x for a 32h wheel. Everything should be uniform and repeat identically, usually with the spokes woven over/under at the last cross.
If your wheel has most, but not all, spokes woven over/under at the last cross, the non woven ones may have been replacements done by a sloppy mechanic.
In any case a whee is a model of repetition and uniformity, so either switch a few spokes if that'll solve the issue, or relace completely.
The 4 spoke motif is repeated a number of times depending on the number of holes, ie 8x for a 32h wheel. Everything should be uniform and repeat identically, usually with the spokes woven over/under at the last cross.
If your wheel has most, but not all, spokes woven over/under at the last cross, the non woven ones may have been replacements done by a sloppy mechanic.
In any case a whee is a model of repetition and uniformity, so either switch a few spokes if that'll solve the issue, or relace completely.
Thanks for the info
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While that's the way that I build them, I don't think that statement is necessarily true.
Lots of wheels have been built with the left and right hub flanges the same rather than a mirror image of one another. I suspect that made it easier to insert the spokes into the flanges.
Lots of wheels have been built with the left and right hub flanges the same rather than a mirror image of one another. I suspect that made it easier to insert the spokes into the flanges.
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#7
Really Old Senior Member
While that's the way that I build them, I don't think that statement is necessarily true.
Lots of wheels have been built with the left and right hub flanges the same rather than a mirror image of one another. I suspect that made it easier to insert the spokes into the flanges.
Lots of wheels have been built with the left and right hub flanges the same rather than a mirror image of one another. I suspect that made it easier to insert the spokes into the flanges.
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Think about the person who laced the wheel. They did it the way that their boss told them to lace the wheel so they did it right.
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My greatest fear is all of my kids standing around my coffin and talking about "how sensible" dad was.
My greatest fear is all of my kids standing around my coffin and talking about "how sensible" dad was.
#11
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There ar two ways to do this - lace the upper flange first, then flip the wheel and lace the other -- or -- lace the lower flange, then the upper. The second saves the time to flip the wheel and is faster by that amount, but it' hard to teach hands to work in the opposite (mirrored) direction, so both flanges are the same. To give you a sense of how important the few seconds to flip the wheel are, a decent worker can lace about 60 wheels per hour, so losing 6 seconds to flip the wheel is a lost 10% of production capacity.
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Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#12
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60 wheels per hour!!!
I assume you're saying insert the spokes that come up from the bottom first, then insert the spokes that go down from the top.
I assume you're saying insert the spokes that come up from the bottom first, then insert the spokes that go down from the top.
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My greatest fear is all of my kids standing around my coffin and talking about "how sensible" dad was.
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Last edited by Retro Grouch; 06-22-15 at 10:04 AM.
#13
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When all is said and done, a production department like what Giant would have can turn out wheels in about 3-5 man minutes each depending on the final quality desired. That compares to high quality hand built wheels, which take a skilled builder about 30 minutes or so start to finish when done in small production batches.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
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WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#14
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
Something tells me that even if I had the best tools in the world, I couldn't connect 2,160 nipples to 2,160 spokes in an hour.
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Then you'd starve to death doing piecework in a wheel production facility. Most wheel building facilities pay either straight piecework, or salary with production quotas and bonuses for beating the quota. Any worker or team not consistently beating the quota and earning bonuses usually doesn't last.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#16
Banned
Curious use of an old germanic-english word that is not used in the US, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fettle
BTW there are Machines that Build wheels those are what will be on a New bike from a Factory (all well known Brands )
BTW there are Machines that Build wheels those are what will be on a New bike from a Factory (all well known Brands )
#17
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
Then you'd starve to death doing piecework in a wheel production facility. Most wheel building facilities pay either straight piecework, or salary with production quotas and bonuses for beating the quota. Any worker or team not consistently beating the quota and earning bonuses usually doesn't last.
My (low) level of manual dexterity would for sure have me on food stamps.
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Then you'd starve to death doing piecework in a wheel production facility. Most wheel building facilities pay either straight piecework, or salary with production quotas and bonuses for beating the quota. Any worker or team not consistently beating the quota and earning bonuses usually doesn't last.
John
#19
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Years ago, a friend ran a wheel production business in this area, and had an all women crew. They seemed satisfied because they all had friends and relatives looking for jobs whenever he had an opening. The women would lace wheels for about a 6 hour day, getting home in time to meet their children coming from school, then take hubs and spokes home to preload them at their leisure.
As factory work goes it's not bad, but it's still factory work.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Curious use of an old germanic-english word that is not used in the US, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fettle
#21
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Just an addition to my OP.
How do I measure spokes and how does this relate to spoke gauge? For instance: 1.8mm = 14g and 2.0mm =13g or whatever. Secondly, I need to replace some spoke nipples. If I find the spoke gauge how does spoke nipple size relate?
How do I measure spokes and how does this relate to spoke gauge? For instance: 1.8mm = 14g and 2.0mm =13g or whatever. Secondly, I need to replace some spoke nipples. If I find the spoke gauge how does spoke nipple size relate?
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Someone correct me if I've got this wrong though.
#23
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My understanding is that you need to match the spoke and nipple gauges, but that doesn't necessarily tell you which spoke wrench to use. So a 14 gauge and 15 gauge nipple may both have the same outer width and use the same wrench. Use the smallest wrench that will fit.
Someone correct me if I've got this wrong though.
Someone correct me if I've got this wrong though.
My question is for compatibility i.e. if you have a nut and a bolt, you need a certain size nut to fit
that specific size bolt, so, what spoke nipples fit what size spokes and how do I go about a) measuring a spoke to know what size or gauge it is and b) what corresponding nipple will fit that spoke.
I need to replace some spoke nipples but need to know what spokes they are to get replacements.
Last edited by migrantwing; 06-24-15 at 01:54 AM.
#24
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Discounting vintage and now rare sizes, and the uncommon heavier spokes, spokes come in only 2 sizes as far as thread is concerned. 14g (0.80", 2mm) and 15g (0.72", 1.8mm). Both are threaded 56tpi. Likewise nipples only come in those two thread sizes. So it's no big deal to identify spokes by the diameter of the wire just beyond the thread, and to identify nipples using a 2mm spoke a a go/nogo gauge.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Last edited by FBinNY; 06-24-15 at 01:25 AM.
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Discounting vintage and now rare sizes, and the uncommon heavier spokes, spokes come in only 2 sizes as far as thread is concerned. 14g (0.80", 2mm) and 15g (0.72", 1.8mm). Both are threaded 56tpi. Likewise nipples only come in those two thread sizes. So it's no big deal to identify spokes by the diameter of the wire just beyond the thread, and to identify nipples using a 2mm spoke a a go/nogo gauge.
BTW, you're either up very late or very early. I'm 5 hours ahead of you on GMT.