Doge

In the last 25 years Evans, Nibali (who else?) won <10% without using banned PEDs (that is what is known as TUEs are supposed to be secret).
(Note that after the winner was DQ'd in a few cases #2 was not a known PED user.)

I'd prefer we all keep our RideClean money and and not pretend $25 (or whatever it is) cleans up the sport.
Too much ambiguity for me.

Ygduf

you're citing imperfect rules as a reason to have no rules, as if no rules is somehow better.

Rideclean is imperfect, but it nabbed Buckley, a guy I raced against, and I bet that scared a few guys into not cheating in races that I've been in. Just pulling Buckley out literally made my races more fair. Is it efficient? Probably not. Does it catch everyone? Certainly not. Is $25 a lot in regards to what a competitive racer spends on this hobby in a season? Absolutely not.

Go ahead and cheat. You'll probably get away with it. The only risk is shame and ostracism, and I guess your health, but we risk that every ride anyway.

tetonrider

+1

lots of folks complained when they saw a surcharge, esp one that scaled based on category.

increased testing measurably impacted my racing this past year and seemed to get people talking (in a good way) about a few catches. i suspect it's warded a few people away from doping.

i'd pay more if it meant more testing.

while imperfect, it's the best deterrent we've got.

i WISH the shame and ostracism thing happened more than it does, yet it's the rare case where people follow through with this in person. most of the time they ***** online and then get quiet in person or make an exception because "he is a good guy/has a family/is my friend."

i'm seeing that with a local case; many people who describe themselves as "vehemently anti-doping" are making an exception when it is their friend/neighbor. lame, IMO.

Ygduf

It was bad enough with Buckley that I felt bad for him. His team cut him (obviously), they all seemed genuinely hurt by his actions and after that first weekend I never heard his name again. In regards to cycling he lost everything.

Doge

Like most sports, there is job level and enjoyment level. They can be both. But outside of support-the-family level, it is rec/hobby. $25 is not much. $250/year is not that much. I just don't see 25 bucks cutting it. Although I'm glad your Buckley got busted.

I'm more concerned about the sport. When in over two decades ~10% can be at the top level without known PEDs use - there is a problem. Not much has changed for the sport.

I'd start with no TUEs. I think I posted that. But it is a logical baseline.

revchuck 

You seem to be saying that you feel that ~90% of current pros are presently doping, unless you're using another time frame for that two decades.

Doge

The TdF winners - yes - they are, it is not a feeling, a fact. That is the number based on public information.
They may not be cheating, but they are doping. ALL the TdF GC winners on the final day took banned PEDs except two that we know of. Froome, Wiggins used as did everyone else. Cadel and Nibali, Sastra are the only TdF winners (the original ones, before being DQ'd and 2nd place got the win) with no evidence of taking a banned substance.

As TUEs are required to be secret we would not know about those two unless there was a leak.

So...
I have seen no evidence you can win the TdF without banned PEDs. Lance said that. Lance is/was correct.

Ygduf

you say that as if it's true

Doge

A baseline where all are the same is - all PEDs allowed, or no PEDs allowed does seem like a place where you can start managing use.

I thought it was logical. Where would you start knowing those stats above (90% of the TdF winners used PEDs)?

topflightpro

Doge, are you talking only pros or are you talking amateurs? Most of us are talking amateurs.

Doge

It is hard to get Wiki data on amateurs. So I used pros. I hear stuff. I may hear more stuff on the sidelines than you guys do, but I wouldn't know. Sometimes the masters are taking banned things and don't know it. And many times it is legal/allowed. But they are still taking banned stuff - allowed or not, which is my point.
I think masters take more than amateur 1s. They are older an more likely to have a reason to legally use. And maybe weird thinking, but many amateurs 1s if they started using PEDs would no longer be amateurs.

I did look at those pros that put on yellow on the Champs (so TdF winners before being DQ'd), back till 1991.

Only 3 years the TdF was won by riders never taking a banned substance. So 3/25 TdF wins had riders with no record of using PEDs. Many times it was allowed (Froome, Wiggins).

But being a pro is an option for many elite juniors as that is where pros come from. So what the Euro Pros do has been of interest/concern to me. Also pros normally define the sport, so I care.

miyata man

I just made up my mind to reallocate my donated time from working in the beer garden to doping control at the local pro race this Summer.

Wylde06

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.31117e06d001

mike868y

i was under the impression it already was banned over a certain amount?

topflightpro

I just drank a cup of decaf.

It was my third cup of coffee for the day. I normally do just two. I try not to drink too much caffeine as it will keep me up at night. But I've also found on the rare days when I drink coffee all day, I tend to not be as hungry.

Ygduf

the entire ncnca would either die driving to ****ing-nowhere at 4:30am or fail a doping test upon arrival.

mike868y

if they actually tested wouldn't the entire ncnca test positive for weed anyway?

caloso

Eff that. Caffeine is my last remaining vice. If they ban it, I'm giving up my license and start MUP racing.

wktmeow

Thankfully its only banned in-competition. I believe the threshold they test for is pretty high as well.

seedsbelize 

Noob here. What exactly is an allowed, banned substance?

Doge

The substance is banned but an exception is given (TUE).
So there is not "cheating".

Doge

Correct. In competition.

Radish_legs

Cyclist who is an ED doc was recently busted for doping. I don't think he was a high end racer. Maybe cat 4. Masters I think.

Heard recently about a masters cat 3 who was rumored to be doping (admitted it to friends). Not busted. But also apparently has quit doping.

Former guy in the Dallas scene that made huge rapid gains in his ability was busted and suspended in CA for doping not too long ago.

I think the amount of doping in the amateur ranks is a lot higher than many of us suspect.

caloso

I dunno. I can suspect quite a bit.

topflightpro

Only if you haven't raced much.