Buellster

I swear that when I find a bike that fits I'll stop spamming your wonderful appraisal boards.

Since the Zues wasnt the right fit I'm now looking at taking a ride on this Harding road bike.
looks like the fork is 531 but from what I can see of the sticker on the seat post, the frame is not.
from other threads on Harding I was under the impression he(or rather his beother) generally only made full 531 which varies in quality of 531 type.
Hes asking 250 which seems more than fair if it's full 531, but may not be if it's a more basic tube set.

link: https://portland.craigslist.org/clk/bik/d/vintage-road-bike-harding/6641563714.html



Sticker in question


Full view

juvela

-----

Charley was not a framebuilder.

Cycles this late with the name were done by Holdsworthy.

The Prugnat 62/d lugset and Vagner DP crown fit right in.

​​​​​​​-----

Buellster

Sorry I must have misunderstood the thread I read.
I found this thread https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage-bicycles-whats-worth-appraisals/782530-197-harding-holdsworth-rebrand-any-thoughts.html
and it seemed to imply that the holdsworth rebrands where orange.
​​​​​​​

juvela

-----

Not only orange, assorted colours.

"Harding Cork Ireland" transfer on frame refers to family home/origin, not where bicycle made. This is where Charley retired to when he closed the shop in Westwood, California ~1991 (IIRC!).

Error in my post above - lugset is Prugnat 62/s, not 62/d. Saw my mistake as soon as looked at detail images in CL entry but could not edit as our new forum software prevents me from editing me posts.

Note the frame's large clearances and stamped ends. It is a midliner "sports-touring" or "touring" sort of application. Enough room to run large cross section tyres and mudguards.

Bicycle excellent value at price...or as we say south of the 49th parallel "good bang for the buck."

Component mix midliner as well.

​​​​​​​-----

Buellster

Slightly disappointed because if it had been a harding original it would have been quite rare from the looks of it. It sounds like it's still a real gem though.
It is most everything I'm looking for. Possibility for touring setup, light weight frame, eyelets for racks and fenders. Maybe a cm on the small size but its much closer than my too small 55.5cm quinn and my monstrous 63cm peugeot which is too big.
Thanks for the info!
I'll let you know if I go for it.

Buellster

I bought it! Got the guy down to 150 because it needed a lot of work. He was putting that price for post tune up, I bought it pre and he let me haggle him.
I dont know how well I did given what I've found.
the tubeset for the frame looks to be Tru-well which ive seen referred to as "gas pipe steel", which is odd because its fork is 531?

Serial number if this means anything to anyone Looks to read: 041999


Tru-well tubeing for the frame i think

juvela

-----

Thanks for the update,

Shall look forward to reading what the experts have to relate.

Have not before seen a Harding badged frame resembling this one.

The others have come across looked to be very nicely finished Mistrals with perhaps more care and chrome than the Holdsworthy badged counterparts.

Purchased me first "tenspeed" from Charley, a white UO8 in 1965.

​​​​​​​-----

Buellster

After digging around the wonderful spread sheet in this forum https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1095723-holdsworth-frame-numbers.html
It looks like my guy is a holdsworth build from the early 1980s. There is a jump where my number fits at between 1982 and 1983. So it eithier late 1981 or early 1983 manufacture date.
Still dont know much else.
Does anyone know if I can find out more about the production or model if it now that I have it more narrowed down?

juvela

-----

Good detective work there!

From what could be seen in images had thought cycle to date from somewhere near to 1980.

You might wish to explore some of the Holdsworth and Grubb badged machines of this era to see if you can find a model which resembles the Harding.

The forum has plenty of Holdsworthy experts who should be able to assist you...

​​​​​​​-----

Buellster

More answers!
God this is fun.
so it looks to be one of these;
A Elan frame from 1982, a mistral from eithier 1982 or 1983, or a special from 1983. The stickers and eyelets line up. On the mistral and the special the clearance for mud guards and 27" tires is specified. Of the three only the Elan from 1982 and the special from 1983 came with the 531 fork. Im leaning towards the1983 special or Elan because they have the correct sticker placement on the seat tube bottom and they have 531 forks. I cant read the stickers they have on the bottom of the seat tube but I'm hoping its similair to the one on mine.
If it is one of these models then it is butted 531 throughout! Which would be awesome!
Though I am still quite skeptical and dont have my hopes up.

thoughts?


Im thinking and hoping its this guy. Clearance in dropouts is right and 531 fork sticker is coreect.


Could easily also be this


Of these it seems that only the Elan or the Mistral woild fit what im looking at.

juvela

-----

All three images illustrate frames with forged ends with adjusters, downtube w/b mounts, and semi-sloping crowns.

The harding has stamped ends, no dt w/b mount and a flat top crown.

In mentioning marques to include in your research above forgot to include Claude Butler.

​​​​​​​-----

Buellster

You've clearly got more knowledge than me and I dont fully know the difference between stamped and forged.
but...




https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1012543-holdsworth-special-650b-tourer.html


This really does look right to me


Mine for comparison Both have flat tops and the lugs look identical (to me and inmay be wrong)


More lugs that look from the photos to match up

Buellster

Close up of rear drop outs Are these stamped then?

Buellster

One more thing ive noticed, the gear cable has a line that is oart of the frame as oppesed to the spots under the BB where it usually runs. Cant find any close ups of this area on any of the other models ive found but it may be what busts my theory

juvela

-----

Hello once again Buellster -

You are doing just fine with your investigation to focus on the cycle's frame and ignore the kitting.

For all we know Charley may have ordered all of his Holdsworths as bare frames and built them up into cycles in his shop.

It is also possible the original owner purchased a bare frameset and built it up themselves...

The mix of japanese and european fittings on the bicycle suggests the latter two possibilities.

"Usually" a bike will be built out all japanese or all european, although there are plenty which are mixed. If a manufacturer is in a country which produces very little in the way of parts such as Austria, Belgium or Nederland mixed kittings will be common.

On to the frame(s) -

The Special model you found has forged ends with adjusters, a semi-sloping crown (despite the manufacturer calling it otherwise), and a mitred in seat stay treatment. These features all differ from your Harding.

Yes, the frame ends on your machine are stamped.

You are doing fine, just keep exploring!

​​​​​​​-----

juvela

-----

minor addendum -

good job bracketing the frame's date via the serial

if you wish, the fittings may offer you a corroboration

the cycle appears to have been assembled once when new and then not mucked with subsequently

its fittings certainly appear contemporaneous with the frameset

some of them may provide dates

the backside of the Weinmann brake caliper arms are likely marked with a clockface type symbol in the center of which will be a two digit number. this is the year.



the bicycle's chainset is Specialized brand which is manufactured by Sugino. there should be date codes on the backside of the crank arms. here is the secret decoder ring -

https://www.vintage-trek.com/component_dates.htm#sugino

the machine's gear ensemble is Suntour brand. their dating system is explained here -

https://www.vintage-trek.com/component_dates.htm#suntour

the quick releases in the cycle's wheel hubs are Maillard; this suggests the hubs themselves may be Maillard as well. beginning around the time your frame was done Maillard began marking the centre section of their hub barrels with a date.

there may be a date stamped into the end of the handlebar.

there may be a date marked on the portion of the handlebar stem currently down inside the steerer.

---

in your researches do not forget to check for Freddie Grubb and Claude Butler badged frames/bicycles from your time bracket as well since these were produced also by Holdsworthy.

​​​​​​​-----

T-Mar

The easiest way to determine if it is Reynolds 531, is to measure the diameter of the seat post, assuming the post has been properly sized for the seat tube. A butted 531 seat tube will typically used a 27.0-27.2mm post. A straight gauge 531seat tube will typically use a 26.4-26.6mm post. Anything smaller is typically hi-tensile steel.

I strongly suspect that this is a hi-tensile frame. The Tru-Wel tubing decal says nothing specific about alloy or butting, the rear dropouts are stamped and the seat post diameter looks relatively small.

Buellster

Doesnt have the date unfortunately


Trying to use rhe decoder ring but this code set up doesnt seem to appear. Im wondering the cranks are newer


They look to ne Atom hubs, is there a dating system for that brand?



Another aet of engraved numbers i discovered. Not sure of realavnce.

Buellster

I'm confused by this. If the Freddie Grubbs and Claude Butlers where rebadged Holdsworthys how would those models help me find this? Wouldn't those models just be the frameset offered by Holdsworthy?
I'm currently trying to find some 80s catalouge from these makers.
thanks for all the info!

juvela

-----

Atom hub -

[John Wayne voice]

"thar be your date young feller: July 1981."



-----

juvela

-----

The D - 4 marking on the crank arm would indicate April 1984.

Perhaps when originally assembled the cycle was fitted with two plateau gearing and this three plateau set was mounted subsequently.

Clockface marking on brake caliper arm -

remember that you have four of the things, suggest you examine all four...

​​​​​​​-----

T-Mar

Another item to consider is the Reynolds decal on the fork blade. It is the pre-1983 style,. The probability of it being OEM on a 1984 frame would be quite small.

There will also be date codes on the back of the SunTour derailleurs,consisting of two letters. The front is a SunTour Vx (1977-1983). I can't positively identify the rear due to the glare but it appears to be a VxGT from the same period.

The bottom bracket shell is definitely an Otsuya from Japan, so I'm wondering if the lugs may also be Japanese clones of Prugnat.

juvela

-----

T-Mar wrote -


"The bottom bracket shell is definitely an Otsuya from Japan, so I'm wondering if the lugs may also be Japanese clones of Prugnat."

My goodness but that explains a lot!

​​​​​​​-----

Buellster

Boy that's disheartening. From what I read on Harding cycles it seemed like they where a set of smaller shops that didnt do a huge amount of self branding. I figured that would mean what they did self brand would be a good quality product.
The sticker is a real bummer, your the second person to point it out. It seems like the sticker is fairly old given its wear pattern and I never would have thought of it being a fake. It makes sense people would do that but at this price point I didnt think I needed to worry about it.
So what do I have here? Is this a decent piece of equipment or is it a lower end clunker?

Buellster

haha! I was thinking that was probably the case.
you've been really helpful with all this, thanks for giving a newbie a chance to learn the ropes.