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MUP Etiquette

Old 05-22-19, 09:46 PM
  #76  
I-Like-To-Bike
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Godzilla vs. Mothra in the Battle of Nitpicking the finer points of Googling/interpreting legal tea leaves found on an MUP
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Old 05-22-19, 10:04 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Godzilla vs. Mothra in the Battle of Nitpicking the finer points of Googling/interpreting legal tea leaves found on an MUP
Binge watching LA Law or Law and Order does not make one a lawyer.
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Old 05-23-19, 06:47 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I notice you ignored my challenge. I'm getting a real sense that the Minuteman has fallen into a regulatory gap. Am I wrong?
Your quest takes you to the Middlesex County Superior Court. Ask for the library. Good luck.

-mr. bill
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Old 05-23-19, 06:55 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Your quest takes you to the Middlesex County Superior Court. Ask for the library. Good luck.

-mr. bill
So I take it you don't know what traffic regulations or laws apply to the Minuteman either.
My sense from the ebike question and your inability to answer this very simple challenge is that the City of Arlington and the other jurisdictions on the way pretty much make it up as they go along.

I really don't care enough to waste a day going to the library to find legal sources that would be online if they existed, thank you.
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Old 05-23-19, 06:59 AM
  #80  
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****
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Old 05-23-19, 07:37 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia
****
Out before the lock .... I wouldn't want to get locked in with this bunch.
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Old 05-23-19, 09:08 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
My sense from the ebike question... pretty much make it up as they go along.
The whole STATE is making it up as we go along. See E-Bike Demo Day at the State House.

BTW, what you are looking for isn't online.

-mr. bill
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Old 05-23-19, 09:33 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
The whole STATE is making it up as we go along. See E-Bike Demo Day at the State House.

BTW, what you are looking for isn't online.

-mr. bill
At this point, I'm pretty sure it isn't offline either, and if it isn't properly promulgated, it isn't valid. Also, at this point, I think it's rather obvious that you're just being cute about the fact that you don't really have an answer other than "look at the signs", so I'm calling an end to my part of this "discussion".

You have a nice holiday weekend, I mean that sincerely.
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Old 05-23-19, 11:28 AM
  #84  
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Fellow Massman here,

I was on the East Bay bike-path last Saturday. In RI MUPs are treated as roads, so pedestrians walk facing traffic. I had a roller blader come right at me, so I told her she was on the wrong side of the road. She yelled something back at me that I could not make out. Because she was on wheels I didn't look at her as being a pedestrian...was I wrong? I'm thinking wheels (skateboard, rollerblades, scooters) ride with traffic, not against?
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Old 05-23-19, 01:04 PM
  #85  
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Incidents like that are why so many riders carry bear spray.
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Old 05-23-19, 01:15 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Out before the lock .... I wouldn't want to get locked in with this bunch.
No kidding...
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Old 05-23-19, 02:08 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by kayakindude
Fellow Massman here,

I was on the East Bay bike-path last Saturday. In RI MUPs are treated as roads, so pedestrians walk facing traffic. I had a roller blader come right at me, so I told her she was on the wrong side of the road. She yelled something back at me that I could not make out. Because she was on wheels I didn't look at her as being a pedestrian...was I wrong? I'm thinking wheels (skateboard, rollerblades, scooters) ride with traffic, not against?
That's a really good question. Anyone from RI know if there's a correct answer? I really like the RI system with the bikes and pedestrians facing each other, but I've only ridden in the state twice. The little wheel folks are just about halfway between the speed of walking and riding a bike, so the logic could work either way, and it just needs to be a clear rule, however arbitrary.
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Old 05-23-19, 02:11 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Out before the lock .... I wouldn't want to get locked in with this bunch.
Out no doubt to go out in the world and spread sunlight and cheer.


Originally Posted by Maelochs
Incidents like that are why so many riders carry bear spray.
Oooops, guess not.
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Old 05-23-19, 03:24 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by kayakindude
I had a roller blader come right at me, so I told her she was on the wrong side of the road.
The one I saw on the Norwottuck took up the entire trail, making the question fairly academic...

(That said, he narrowed it when going by our mixed wheel/walk group)
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Old 05-26-19, 08:55 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Again, free internut legal advice is worth every penny. Consult a professional. But you must consider locally the context of "exclusive," that is "motor traffic." If the phrase included "motor traffic and pedestrians" you might have an argument.

More generally, when looking at the definition, since bikeways like the Minuteman are specifically INCLUDED in the scope of the chapter, you would be wise to consider that your interpretation of the definition which EXCLUDES bikeways like the Minuteman is likely in error.

See MGL Chapter 90E, Section 2. Specifically....



Now, FINDING the regulations for the use of bicycles on the bikepaths is... ...interesting. But if you look at those signs conveniently posted, there they are. (The are *NOT* simply "etiquette.")


However, there are MANY OTHER bikeways/rail trails where the regulations come from another entity, specifically now the DCR, formerly MDC. These cover paths such as the well used Paul D. White bikepath, the Cape Cod Rail Trail, the Norwottuck Rail Trail, Alewife Brook Path, etc....


You can actually FIND these regulations at 302 CMR 12.

Specifically about the "controversial" bell/"on your left" question:





It's simple. MUPs are not sidewalks. No matter how many times people who don't ride on MUPs insist that they are.

-mr. bill
Originally Posted by mr_bill
Again, if you want legal advice, hire someone.

You can deconstruct a statute all you want, but when your “plausible” construction runs into facts on the ground....

Time for you to cite a decision that MUPs are sidewalks.

(Yes, you ride on MUPs. I ride on MUPs. The thread-hijacker doesn’t, or hasn’t for years, and pigeons in China?)

-mr. bill
Originally Posted by mr_bill
The whole STATE is making it up as we go along. See E-Bike Demo Day at the State House.

BTW, what you are looking for isn't online.

-mr. bill


Guess what I happened to see today on the Minuteman? Whoever put up that sign thought the Minuteman is a sidewalk. It's actually in Section 11b, 11 doesn't actually have anything to do with bikes.
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Old 06-18-19, 07:42 PM
  #91  
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Looks like the fire has died down, time to toss a log on it.


Tonight while on a post diner ride on a local MUP I was over taken by a large peloton. Easily going 20+ MPH with 12 plus riders.

I watched as they pulled away then I saw the group wiz by a young mother with her two children on small bikes.
Credit to the mother, the kids were riding single file and to the far right, but a group of 12 at 20mph...... If one of the children swerved or had a small accident it could have been ugly.


MUPs - full of the good, the bad, and the ugly
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Old 06-18-19, 08:41 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by PoorBob
Looks like the fire has died down, time to toss a log on it.


Tonight while on a post diner ride on a local MUP I was over taken by a large peloton. Easily going 20+ MPH with 12 plus riders.

I watched as they pulled away then I saw the group wiz by a young mother with her two children on small bikes.
Credit to the mother, the kids were riding single file and to the far right, but a group of 12 at 20mph...... If one of the children swerved or had a small accident it could have been ugly.


MUPs - full of the good, the bad, and the ugly
If you're saying they were going too fast, I would agree. However, they could have been riding half as slow and your child swerving scenario could still have occurred. With that in mind, the ultimate responsibly of the child's safety is the parent.

I've been standing still in line in the supermarket and had kids run into me and knock himself down. My knee hurt for two days and without even the consolation of an apology from the parent.
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Old 06-18-19, 08:53 PM
  #93  
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AFAIK, we don't have anything termed a "MUP". We have bike paths and that's defined in law, but the only real regulation is motor vehicles are prohibited (though the bike path I use sees some mopeds and I've never had a problem with them). It seems like most users understand it is a "bike path" and they don't seem surprised getting passed by bikes. I've had some homeless encroach on the path and they don't seem to think it is a big deal but that's about it. Normally, I can ride as fast as I can maintain (wish it as 20 but that's only with a tail wind). Sure, when you see Mom or Dad out with a kid or kids on bikes expect anything can happen and plan accordingly (often taking the grass is the best work around). I've never seen a group of cyclists on the path so comment on that aspect.

Years ago I would ride the South Bay bike path in LA and there you just slotted in with the users. Peds and joggers weren't allowed so it was cyclists and skaters. The scenery behind skaters was usually pretty good so no incentive to pass. Of course some sections of the path like Manhattan Beach were also ped routes and it was pretty much see how slow you can go without putting a foot down, and riding stairs. Also at the end at Redondo Beach was a pretty steep incline to leave the beach and head into Palos Verdes. From Venice to Santa Monica they built it with many gratuitous curves so you couldn't go too fast even if you wanted to.

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Old 06-19-19, 07:23 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL
If you're saying they were going too fast, I would agree. However, they could have been riding half as slow and your child swerving scenario could still have occurred. With that in mind, the ultimate responsibly of the child's safety is the parent.

I've been standing still in line in the supermarket and had kids run into me and knock himself down. My knee hurt for two days and without even the consolation of an apology from the parent.
I slow to a crawl when passing very young children. I've had the swerving kid scenario happen at that speed a couple of times and been able to avoid the collision. Any faster and it probably would have been bad.

i think it's definitely the cyclist's responsibility to adjust their own speed in this situation and have actually caught up to cyclists to yell at them for close-passing toddlers at speed.
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Old 06-19-19, 07:56 PM
  #95  
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My personal view is that in the end we are all out on MUP as a part of the comm***ty at large, in that comm***ty we all have to give and take. Yes the parent is responsible for the child, but no single parent is perfect, nor is any cyclist. A small child, jogger with a dog, or even somebody decked out in areo kit on a TT bike can still make a mistake. With that in mind siding with caution in a scenario that could result in injury or property damage we all are responsible to minimize the risk.

So with that I can circle back to my original post. Lets all try to be safe, be courteous, and enjoy our public spaces the best we can. And understand everybody is going to make a mistake or two so be prepared, next time it might just be you...
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Old 06-29-19, 05:07 PM
  #96  
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Well, they didn't have a picnic table but they had a camping stove and a frying pan and were browning some hot dogs for lunch, right there in the downhill lane of a shady wooded section of MUP.

Riding up towards them I was expecting to see the body they seemed to be leaning over and patching up or resuscitating and was getting ready to dismount and contribute any help I could, until it became clear that it wasn't an accident aftermath but rather an accident precursor, complete with frying pan and hot dogs!

Couple of adults, gaggle of pre-teen kids. I can't fathom what they were thinking - no awareness the trail had parking lots a mile ahead and behind? "Oh, hey, lets set up the stove on the pavement so we don't set fire to the underbrush"?

Somehow I just wasn't in a mood to pick a fight nor was the guy I was riding with, but we made a point to warn the next few bikes we saw headed down hill, and invited them to take issue with it.

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Old 06-29-19, 05:49 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by PoorBob
My personal view is that in the end we are all out on MUP as a part of the comm***ty at large, in that comm***ty we all have to give and take. Yes the parent is responsible for the child, but no single parent is perfect, nor is any cyclist. A small child, jogger with a dog, or even somebody decked out in areo kit on a TT bike can still make a mistake. With that in mind siding with caution in a scenario that could result in injury or property damage we all are responsible to minimize the risk.

So with that I can circle back to my original post. Lets all try to be safe, be courteous, and enjoy our public spaces the best we can. And understand everybody is going to make a mistake or two so be prepared, next time it might just be you...
On the other hand, when I was a new driver I didn't venture onto the highway until I had the confidence and skill to do so. When I learned how to drive I did so in school on a designated driving course under the tutelage of an expert. I didn't ask nor expect the rest of the drivers on the road to slow down and wait for me to learn.

When I ran I'd go to the track and there were sprinters and distance runners, and we all ran in harmony. The sprinters kept to the inner lanes and the distant (much slower) runners ran on the outside. We both manged to workout to our limits without hindering or interfering with the other's routine.

When I was in school and Timmy didn't do his homework my teachers didn't put the rest of the class on hold until he caught up. We went ahead and Timmy either stayed after school and worked overtime to catch up, or got left behind. That was our preparation for everything in life.

Being courteous is one thing, but be mindful you don't become the elitist you believe the other guy is. Its a bad idea to expect the world to slow down and wait for you. Especially when there are areas specifically designated for you to prepare before you join the faster group. I was taught to prepare and aspire to a higher challenges, not the other way around. What about you?
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Old 06-29-19, 06:42 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL
On the other hand, when I was a new driver I didn't venture onto the highway until I had the confidence and skill to do so. When I learned how to drive I did so in school on a designated driving course under the tutelage of an expert. I didn't ask nor expect the rest of the drivers on the road to slow down and wait for me to learn.

When I ran I'd go to the track and there were sprinters and distance runners, and we all ran in harmony. The sprinters kept to the inner lanes and the distant (much slower) runners ran on the outside. We both manged to workout to our limits without hindering or interfering with the other's routine.

When I was in school and Timmy didn't do his homework my teachers didn't put the rest of the class on hold until he caught up. We went ahead and Timmy either stayed after school and worked overtime to catch up, or got left behind. That was our preparation for everything in life.

Being courteous is one thing, but be mindful you don't become the elitist you believe the other guy is. Its a bad idea to expect the world to slow down and wait for you. Especially when there are areas specifically designated for you to prepare before you join the faster group. I was taught to prepare and aspire to a higher challenges, not the other way around. What about you?
Those places are called MUPs. They are not roads. One of the multiple uses is teaching children to ride. Get on the road if you don't like it.
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Old 06-30-19, 07:21 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by goldensprocket
I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Normal folks ring bells on MUPs even when people are "about where they ought to be" to let them know that someone is passing. This can help prevent people from being startled by a bike coming by "out of nowhere."

This is basic stuff.
That's my thought too. I ring my bell when I'm approaching peds so they won't be startled when I say something to them as I get closer.
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Old 06-30-19, 07:53 PM
  #100  
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MULTI-USE path? I'm continually hearing about compromises but only for one side, and zero from the others. Does the other groups have any responsibility at all on the MUP? Otherwise, that sounds like a pretty preferential use path to me.

Perhaps it needs a new moniker (PUP) to avoid confusion? Now we know for sure its just an extension of the playground, or a highfalutin sidewalk.
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