View Poll Results: Do you take a prominent position in a lane when needed?
Yes, I take a prominent lane postion when I need to for my own safety.
92
85.98%
No, I do not ever take over a lane.
15
14.02%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll
Controlling the lane!
05-03-18, 11:06 AM
#226
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I suppose they have to use the same skillset they use when they pass other vehicles properly. The state is usually kind enough to even put visible lines and stripes in the other lane to help drivers manage to pass properly. Go figure!
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05-03-18, 11:59 AM
#227
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I think you are confusing how things work on paper with reality. What is actually going to happen is that the driver is going to ignore the painted lines and worry about the only two things that matter - you and the left shoulder. And drivers are going to have an easier to time judging the shoulder than you.
05-03-18, 01:30 PM
#228
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I think you are confusing how things work on paper with reality. What is actually going to happen is that the driver is going to ignore the painted lines and worry about the only two things that matter - you and the left shoulder. And drivers are going to have an easier to time judging the shoulder than you.
BB
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05-03-18, 01:40 PM
#229
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I suppose that explains the tens of thousands of cyclists who are killed by overtaking cars each year, and the enormous number of drivers unable to pass other vehicles of any sort safely. Please accept my apologies. I'm new to all of this, and thought my mere 40+ years of operating a motor vehicle and nearly 50 years of cycling gave me a clue as to what happened in the real world, but I can see that that was just juvenile over-confidence.
BB
BB
I've also been operating cars and bicycles about as long as you have. And I'm observing that, when I pass in a car, I pay more attention to not hitting things or falling off the edge of the road than I do to the location of painted lines that I will be crossing multiple times.
Your explanation sounds like drivers are going to see the cyclist, pull into the oncoming lane and then ignore the cyclist and only look at the lane markers. I don't see why anyone would drive like that - especially when they are already suspicious of the cyclist that is riding in the middle of the lane for no obvious reason. When cars get over to go around obstructions in the road - UPS trucks, cyclists, animals - they watch the thing they are going around for spacing and to know when they can get back over. They don't stare at the tarmac.
Please don't be insulted that I have a different view point.
05-03-18, 01:51 PM
#230
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How many are on the road? How many are passed?
In Missouri alone, there are roughly 2 million cyclists and 140,000+ avid road cyclists. If we assume MO is typical, that puts 100 million cyclists out there, with 5 million+ avid cyclists on the road. Even is all 800 deaths were the result of close passes (they aren't) that lets us know that the vast majority of cyclists are simply going about their rides without incident.
I wasn't insulted by your having a different view. I was insulted by your dismissal of mine.
In Missouri alone, there are roughly 2 million cyclists and 140,000+ avid road cyclists. If we assume MO is typical, that puts 100 million cyclists out there, with 5 million+ avid cyclists on the road. Even is all 800 deaths were the result of close passes (they aren't) that lets us know that the vast majority of cyclists are simply going about their rides without incident.
I wasn't insulted by your having a different view. I was insulted by your dismissal of mine.
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05-03-18, 02:07 PM
#231
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How many are on the road? How many are passed?
In Missouri alone, there are roughly 2 million cyclists and 140,000+ avid road cyclists. If we assume MO is typical, that puts 100 million cyclists out there, with 5 million+ avid cyclists on the road. Even is all 800 deaths were the result of close passes (they aren't) that lets us know that the vast majority of cyclists are simply going about their rides without incident.
I wasn't insulted by your having a different view. I was insulted by your dismissal of mine.
In Missouri alone, there are roughly 2 million cyclists and 140,000+ avid road cyclists. If we assume MO is typical, that puts 100 million cyclists out there, with 5 million+ avid cyclists on the road. Even is all 800 deaths were the result of close passes (they aren't) that lets us know that the vast majority of cyclists are simply going about their rides without incident.
I wasn't insulted by your having a different view. I was insulted by your dismissal of mine.
But why did you say that "tens of thousands of cyclists who are killed by overtaking cars each year"? That is a pretty wild number.
05-03-18, 02:28 PM
#232
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I n any case ... there seems to be absolutely no evidence that taking the lane is safer or less safe in general than any other mode of managing bike position on the roadway.
People have said that personal experience is not evidence, and therefore cannot be accepted ... so all of us, with our combined centuries of riding and driving .... safely, by and large ... cannot learn anything from all those miles ... we didn't "experience" them apparently.
I still maintain my position ... there is nothing more important than Awareness ... and lane positioning is one of many tools which cyclists can use in many ways. But that is just what I have learned by over a century of combined driving and riding ... which i apparently didn't experience .... ( /shrug )
Considering we are all posting, I have to imagine we have all survvied.
Congratulations to all of us.
People have said that personal experience is not evidence, and therefore cannot be accepted ... so all of us, with our combined centuries of riding and driving .... safely, by and large ... cannot learn anything from all those miles ... we didn't "experience" them apparently.
I still maintain my position ... there is nothing more important than Awareness ... and lane positioning is one of many tools which cyclists can use in many ways. But that is just what I have learned by over a century of combined driving and riding ... which i apparently didn't experience .... ( /shrug )
Considering we are all posting, I have to imagine we have all survvied.
Congratulations to all of us.
05-03-18, 10:16 PM
#233
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By straddling the lane. Motorists' also, potentially put other motorists' in danger. A very good example of that . Was almost five years ago. On a busy six-lane divided arterial. I was in a merge lane, when the vehicle behind me passed me straddling the line of the merge and outside lanes'. Upon the motorist suddenly noticing that the merge lane was about to end. The motorist hit his brakes hard, Because he was going too fast, he spun out. This caused all the traffic on that side of the road to have to stop.
05-03-18, 11:40 PM
#234
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On a two-lane road, I am referring to, vehicles' only passing in the on-coming lane. By passing in the on-coming lane, the risk would be the passing motorist's. Because, A motorist doesn't want to wait for on-coming traffic to go by. They want to pass before the on-coming traffic arrives'.
By straddling the lane. Motorists' also, potentially put other motorists' in danger. A very good example of that . Was almost five years ago. On a busy six-lane divided arterial. I was in a merge lane, when the vehicle behind me passed me straddling the line of the merge and outside lanes'. Upon the motorist suddenly noticing that the merge lane was about to end. The motorist hit his brakes hard, Because he was going too fast, he spun out. This caused all the traffic on that side of the road to have to stop.
By straddling the lane. Motorists' also, potentially put other motorists' in danger. A very good example of that . Was almost five years ago. On a busy six-lane divided arterial. I was in a merge lane, when the vehicle behind me passed me straddling the line of the merge and outside lanes'. Upon the motorist suddenly noticing that the merge lane was about to end. The motorist hit his brakes hard, Because he was going too fast, he spun out. This caused all the traffic on that side of the road to have to stop.
When cars pass, everyone wants that to happen quickly and safely. Requiring cars to veer hard a full lane over and then a full lane back increases time the car has to be in the incoming lane, the speed they have to pass at and/or how much they have to turn the wheel. I don't see the advantage in forcing drivers to maneuver and accelerate more aggressively when they aren't giving the cyclist any more clearance since the cyclist is so far left already. That just sounds like a recipe to increase the chance of a misjudgment or loss of control by the driver.
05-03-18, 11:41 PM
#235
☢
Its okay to discuss the different degrees of modification to avoid dangerous situations, but going against the already established procedures instituted and understood for cyclist, only adds to indecision and confusion for everyone. The most dangerous environment of all is the one created when each individual has this own idea of what is right.
Granted, sometimes you have to go against the standards to avoid an accident, but having our own separate understanding of procedure is dangerous and should be avoided at all costs. The safest cyclist on the road are those that follow the standards and are predictable.
Granted, sometimes you have to go against the standards to avoid an accident, but having our own separate understanding of procedure is dangerous and should be avoided at all costs. The safest cyclist on the road are those that follow the standards and are predictable.
05-03-18, 11:44 PM
#236
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The rules aren't the same everywhere, though. In Nevada you are not allowed to ride in the center of the lane, period.
05-04-18, 12:19 AM
#237
☢
The basic laws are the same in all 50 states (but may not always be specifically stated). Granted, there are some regional and state difference that can apply but I'm pretty sure that's not one of them.
05-04-18, 02:00 AM
#238
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https://www.dmvnv.com/pdfforms/qtbicycle.pdf
I've seen the same thing many times, and your quotation does not contradict it. You are taking 'safe' to mean forcing all vehicles to get behind you as you take the whole lane up, but that is just your own interpretation and a pretty big leap.
Any reasonable interpretation says you can only 'take the lane' if you are going fast enough not to block traffic or if you are preparing to turn left, or if there is some obstruction that makes travel unsafe in the far right.
Rules for CyclistsAlways ride on the right and as far to the right as•practicable. Cyclists may ride two abreast. Ridesinglefile in traffic for courtesy.Obey all signs and signals. Teach them to children.•Use hand signals for turns and stops.•Ride at least three feet away from parked cars.•LISTEN for cars approaching from the side or rear.•Don’t follow cars closely or ride in their blind spot.•Always be prepared to stop.•Check your bike’s mechanical condition before•every ride. Brakes are required by law.It is illegal to cling to another vehicle.
I've seen the same thing many times, and your quotation does not contradict it. You are taking 'safe' to mean forcing all vehicles to get behind you as you take the whole lane up, but that is just your own interpretation and a pretty big leap.
Any reasonable interpretation says you can only 'take the lane' if you are going fast enough not to block traffic or if you are preparing to turn left, or if there is some obstruction that makes travel unsafe in the far right.
05-04-18, 03:00 AM
#239
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Its okay to discuss the different degrees of modification to avoid dangerous situations, but going against the already established procedures instituted and understood for cyclist, only adds to indecision and confusion for everyone. The most dangerous environment of all is the one created when each individual has this own idea of what is right.
Granted, sometimes you have to go against the standards to avoid an accident, but having our own separate understanding of procedure is dangerous and should be avoided at all costs. The safest cyclist on the road are those that follow the standards and are predictable.
Granted, sometimes you have to go against the standards to avoid an accident, but having our own separate understanding of procedure is dangerous and should be avoided at all costs. The safest cyclist on the road are those that follow the standards and are predictable.
This is a person who is TRYING TO CHANGE THE WAY CYCLISTS USE THE ROAD, telling us that the best and safest method is never to change the way cyclists use the road.
The "Established Procedure" is that cyclists stay AS FAR RIGHT AS PRATICABLE. It is also The Law in most states.
This is the same person who has zero scientific evidence that taking the lane is safer, and who said that no other rider's experience is valid for making judgments about where to ride because Everyone Else's experiences are only "anecdotal." "Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eye?"
Since he has received the Divine Contradictory Wisdom on how to ride, his way is just better.
This, my friends is the Quintessential A&S poster.
Chapeau.
05-04-18, 04:37 AM
#240
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That sounds like a fairly atypical situation.
When cars pass, everyone wants that to happen quickly and safely. Requiring cars to veer hard a full lane over and then a full lane back increases time the car has to be in the incoming lane, the speed they have to pass at and/or how much they have to turn the wheel. I don't see the advantage in forcing drivers to maneuver and accelerate more aggressively when they aren't giving the cyclist any more clearance since the cyclist is so far left already. That just sounds like a recipe to increase the chance of a misjudgment or loss of control by the driver.
When cars pass, everyone wants that to happen quickly and safely. Requiring cars to veer hard a full lane over and then a full lane back increases time the car has to be in the incoming lane, the speed they have to pass at and/or how much they have to turn the wheel. I don't see the advantage in forcing drivers to maneuver and accelerate more aggressively when they aren't giving the cyclist any more clearance since the cyclist is so far left already. That just sounds like a recipe to increase the chance of a misjudgment or loss of control by the driver.
05-04-18, 10:13 AM
#241
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It is the motorist's choice to be stupid. Like I said before. I have seen so many drivers' ignore the state's 3ft. law. That I just started, taking the 3ft. for my own protection. Additionally, There is no need for them to accelerate aggressively. They don't treat other motorists', or even a horse like that. So why should they treat a cyclist like that. Especially on a blind curve, or a hill that obscure's their view. By the motorist passing by less than 3ft., when they are fully in the on-coming or passing lane. They will be passing where they are supposed to.
Your theory appears to be based on the mistaken notion that a driver that would normally straddle the yellow line would be compelled to pass completely in the oncoming lane. But the have no reason to do so - they are only going to get over as far as they need to to pass 5 feet of bicycle and get back in their proper lane. The only way to compel drivers to get all the way over the line during the pass is to get too close to them for your safety, which pinches the car between the left shoulder and you. Which seems extremely dangerous.
The only thing you can "control" with your bike is whether the car can pass or not. Where they drive relative to you during a pass is not possible to control, and passing drivers do not care where the painted line is because they are going to cross it twice in quick succession. It provides no protection for you at all.
05-04-18, 10:32 AM
#242
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In my experience, cars which will pass too closely will do so wherever I am in the lane, and courteous drivers will overtake safely no matter where I am in the lane.
I have listed several incidents where cars passed my while I was either dead center in the lane, in the left third, or riding two abreast. So "taking the lane" did not increase safety in any way.
There are times I take the lane with the intention of blocking pass attempts, places where I know cars might try to pass and would endanger me so doing. Sadly, some cars will drive into oncoming traffic to make a pass even around corners up hills. Mostly, I ride so that cars and I can both go about our business without much hindrance, and drivers seem to do the same.
if someone Wants to hit me, i won't know until it happens. if someone hits me because of sheer stupidity, like trying to pass on a blind curve and then swerving into me because of a car coming head-on ... "taking the lane" won't help. if someone is distracted and doesn't notice me ... taking the lane Might help a little, in that a person looking up from his/her phone will probably look straight ahead first---but on the other hand, if I am off the the side, that person will likely go right past me without seeing me, while lost in texting or whatever.
I cannot see why people keep preaching about "talking the lane" as if it were some holy act of divine protection. It might help, it might hurt, it might do nothing. Always use the best tool, and realize that the job might not get done anyway.
The one thing, if there had to be one thing, i would preach, would be "Awareness." if you know whats going on around you you have the best chance of getting where you are going.
I have listed several incidents where cars passed my while I was either dead center in the lane, in the left third, or riding two abreast. So "taking the lane" did not increase safety in any way.
There are times I take the lane with the intention of blocking pass attempts, places where I know cars might try to pass and would endanger me so doing. Sadly, some cars will drive into oncoming traffic to make a pass even around corners up hills. Mostly, I ride so that cars and I can both go about our business without much hindrance, and drivers seem to do the same.
if someone Wants to hit me, i won't know until it happens. if someone hits me because of sheer stupidity, like trying to pass on a blind curve and then swerving into me because of a car coming head-on ... "taking the lane" won't help. if someone is distracted and doesn't notice me ... taking the lane Might help a little, in that a person looking up from his/her phone will probably look straight ahead first---but on the other hand, if I am off the the side, that person will likely go right past me without seeing me, while lost in texting or whatever.
I cannot see why people keep preaching about "talking the lane" as if it were some holy act of divine protection. It might help, it might hurt, it might do nothing. Always use the best tool, and realize that the job might not get done anyway.
The one thing, if there had to be one thing, i would preach, would be "Awareness." if you know whats going on around you you have the best chance of getting where you are going.
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05-04-18, 10:50 AM
#243
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I respect your experience, and I ride much as you describe. There are times when, in my judgement, it is appropriate to take the lane, and times when, in my judgement, it is best to ride FRAP. However, in my experience I have fewer close passes (never zero, as you noted) when I take the lane. It's not magic and it doesn't guarantee my safety, it is just a tool that I can use when, in my judgement, it is appropriate. And no, I don't have any data or studies to support my judgement, I don't think that any such exist. My judgement is empirical, and is subject to change given changing environment, what I read in forums such as this, etc.
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My whole issue is with people who claim that Only riding in the middle or left third of the lae is s afe, and that by riding elsewhere wea re encouraging bad drivers and endangering ourselves and all cyclists.
I have said right here repeatedly (and my posts are all there to be read) that lane positioning is one tool ... exactly as you and almost every other sane and sensible urban/suburban cyclist here has said.
Yet we still have people claiming that only "taking the lane" is safe, sane, and sensible.
Personally ... I have no t noticed a correlation of how often i take the whole lane and get passed too closely and how often otherwise ... possibly because I generally only take the whole lane if I definitely do Not want to be passed, and in conditions where even a stupid driver would have to be behaving with exceptional stupidity to make the attempt.
And more important ... I Do Not Care At All how some other cyclist does it. Take a lane, take three, hug the edge, whatever .... I truly hope every cyclist survives the ride uninjured, if that is his or her fate, and How they do that is their business. What bothers me is people with no evidence, no information, telling me I am evil because i have a different way of using the same tool set that is available to all road cyclists.
I use a socket and ratchet, they use an open-ended wrench, the nut gets loosened ,,, and Their nuts get all twisted because I didn't die and still got the nut off.
Whatever.
05-04-18, 11:29 AM
#244
No one carries the DogBoy
I take the lane regularly in city riding, but I rarely do it in the country. In city/town riding, I take the lane prior to turns, to change lanes on a multi-lane to get into the left hand turn lane, to avoid debris in the bike lane. The one that forces me to do it most is roundabouts though. For some reason traffic designers assume that the best thing to do is to end the bike lane by dumping it onto the sidewalk 10-20 meters prior to the roundabout. Instead, I wait for a break in traffic, signal a left turn and move to the center of the lane (repeated if I need the left lane in the roundabout). I then proceed through the roundabout as if I were a motor-vehicle, staying in the center of the lane. When I get out of the roundabout, the bike lane usually reappears 10-20 meters out, and I merge back into the bike lane. I get very little interactions from motorists. I have had the occasional honk, and a local copper once gave me the stink-eye as I took the lane, but when I merged back into the bike lane he just drove off. The speed limits on these roads varies from 25 to 40, and I'm usually going 12-18 mph.
05-04-18, 01:17 PM
#245
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The majority of the "anecdotes which are not actual evidence" I read here reinforce the idea I already had----surviving cyclists have learned a variety of ways to cooperate with drivers in urban and dense suburban setting and don't need to make a religion out of a single method.
05-04-18, 07:17 PM
#246
☢
Good Lord.
This is a person who is TRYING TO CHANGE THE WAY CYCLISTS USE THE ROAD, telling us that the best and safest method is never to change the way cyclists use the road.
The "Established Procedure" is that cyclists stay AS FAR RIGHT AS PRATICABLE. It is also The Law in most states.
This is the same person who has zero scientific evidence that taking the lane is safer, and who said that no other rider's experience is valid for making judgments about where to ride because Everyone Else's experiences are only "anecdotal." "Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eye?"
Since he has received the Divine Contradictory Wisdom on how to ride, his way is just better.
This, my friends is the Quintessential A&S poster.
Chapeau.
This is a person who is TRYING TO CHANGE THE WAY CYCLISTS USE THE ROAD, telling us that the best and safest method is never to change the way cyclists use the road.
The "Established Procedure" is that cyclists stay AS FAR RIGHT AS PRATICABLE. It is also The Law in most states.
This is the same person who has zero scientific evidence that taking the lane is safer, and who said that no other rider's experience is valid for making judgments about where to ride because Everyone Else's experiences are only "anecdotal." "Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eye?"
Since he has received the Divine Contradictory Wisdom on how to ride, his way is just better.
This, my friends is the Quintessential A&S poster.
Chapeau.
05-04-18, 07:56 PM
#247
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Good Lord.
This is a person who is TRYING TO CHANGE THE WAY CYCLISTS USE THE ROAD, telling us that the best and safest method is never to change the way cyclists use the road….
Since he has received the Divine Contradictory Wisdom on how to ride, his way is just better.
This, my friends is the Quintessential A&S poster.
Chapeau.
This is a person who is TRYING TO CHANGE THE WAY CYCLISTS USE THE ROAD, telling us that the best and safest method is never to change the way cyclists use the road….
Since he has received the Divine Contradictory Wisdom on how to ride, his way is just better.
This, my friends is the Quintessential A&S poster.
Chapeau.
You know when someone resorts to petty ad hominems its a clear sign they've run out of useful items to support their position. Nothing that I've stated thus far goes against well established written rules, policies, or laws in regards to safe and courteous cycling. In fact, my whole position is in support of them.
I posted to a now-closed thread, “How do we know when it’s time to stop?",
”Why do you think they call it a "popcorn thread"? 
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
I think I have absorbed all the good advice I can for a complete and agreeable cycling lifestyle, and recently I have clicked on many fewer threads than before.
In the past I have offered IMO several useful suggestions about cycling…They are usually lost in the morass of often scores of replies, both in agreement and dispute with mine…
Frankly, now my main enjoyment is reading the personal clashes on the various threads, such as these current ones: "I work with a moron", or ”How often do you check your mirror?.”
In the past I have offered IMO several useful suggestions about cycling…They are usually lost in the morass of often scores of replies, both in agreement and dispute with mine…
Frankly, now my main enjoyment is reading the personal clashes on the various threads, such as these current ones: "I work with a moron", or ”How often do you check your mirror?.”
Originally Posted by BillyD
Anytime you have two individuals going at it for days and getting personal and disruptive and off topic . . . well it's time to say goodnight to the thread.
Closed.
Closed.
"Who’s keeping score? 
PS: See this recent exchange on one of those aforementioned MUP threads:
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 05-04-18 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Added PS
05-04-18, 08:04 PM
#248
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When Jim the Exception says to quit ... it's time to quit.
05-04-18, 09:20 PM
#249
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I posted to a now-closed thread, “How do we know when it’s time to stop?",
I wouldn't as a rule think of people from Noston [sic] as "reasonable"---not a regional character trait i would suggest---and since i grew up around there, i have a little to base it on.
Some from this day forward ... I dub the "Jim the Exception"
Some from this day forward ... I dub the "Jim the Exception"
Nicely said, and thanks for the (? ambiguous) appellation, @Maelochs; I’m actually from Michigan, and I hope I retain some “Midwestern sensibility".
There was no insult. It was up to you to clarify your post when I first noted it made no sense as a response. You just seem to want to argue.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 05-05-18 at 05:42 AM.
05-04-18, 10:21 PM
#250
Senior Member