Are Drop bars just an illusion for most?
#676
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I don't think Terry is a troll by any means, just someone who believes what he believes - which is cool even if I don't see things the same way.
And while I sometimes don't see things the same as Stuart as well, I respect that he's not afraid to have a real life presence on the board so that I at least know his opinions are based on actual experience. Like me, not perfect but what you see is pretty well what you get. It's honest.
But the other poster here, who loves to denigrate other people for being unfit and unhealthy is pretty well a troll imo. Vague, anonymous, no pics of him or his bike to substantiate how uber fit and awesome he is in comparison, he just puts people down from the shadows of obscurity. No honesty.
And while I sometimes don't see things the same as Stuart as well, I respect that he's not afraid to have a real life presence on the board so that I at least know his opinions are based on actual experience. Like me, not perfect but what you see is pretty well what you get. It's honest.
But the other poster here, who loves to denigrate other people for being unfit and unhealthy is pretty well a troll imo. Vague, anonymous, no pics of him or his bike to substantiate how uber fit and awesome he is in comparison, he just puts people down from the shadows of obscurity. No honesty.
The latest thread was fun- he declared he would buy a new bike to bikepack for many weeks this fall in the midwest, but without a plan of when or where. Expensive wheels were a must and they would have to be ordered with wait time. Then he declared he would ride to the KATY while avoiding a bunch of places that are associated with the KATY(towns and the river the KATY runs along!). With no timeline or plan, the thread turned to a bunch of questions since it was super confusing and his responses became aggressive. Ultimately the entire non-plan plan was scrapped and he bought a mountainbike.
I did give a laugh or two when I first read the thread since the KATY was mentioned as a location for the ride. The thread went just as well as those old KATY threads from squeeze.
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point is you don't do it by resting your thumb, fingers, and hand on the top of the bar. You grab the bar with your thumbs under the bar!! The only way your hand will come off the bar is if you let go. or if your hands slides 5" out and off the end of the bar.
To get the same thumb grip on a Drop bar you do it in the drops. as your hand can only slide down or up. the only way it comes off is about 6" backwards. or letting go.
anatomy will not allow you the same grip on the hoods.
To get the same thumb grip on a Drop bar you do it in the drops. as your hand can only slide down or up. the only way it comes off is about 6" backwards. or letting go.
anatomy will not allow you the same grip on the hoods.
#679
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Anecdotal, I know, but I was once on a group ride in a paceline doing about 25, with my hands draped over the hoods, and not gripping any part of the underside of the bars. Hit a golf ball-sized rock with my front wheel that no one called out, which sent both hands flying off the bars immediately, and I went down helplessly flailing for my brakes, at full speed. Worst crash I ever had, I still regularly feel the effect of it in the hip I went down on (hard).
While it's not impossible to lose your grip while in the drops, nor is a person's grip necessarily any less secure on the hoods if you're really hanging on, it's just there's the temptation when you're tired to not hold onto the hoods as tightly as you should. So for that reason, and to prevent another similar crash, I play it safe and stay in the drops when there's any potential danger ahead (or I can't see well enough to tell).
#680
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He is an expert in gravel riding too- its often times entertaining to read. He has strong views on an aluminum Trek frame that rode harshly, and hasnt gotten a different gravel bike in over a year I think. But dang he has strong opinions on riding, distance, equipment, and other's experiences and preferences.
The latest thread was fun- he declared he would buy a new bike to bikepack for many weeks this fall in the midwest, but without a plan of when or where. Expensive wheels were a must and they would have to be ordered with wait time. Then he declared he would ride to the KATY while avoiding a bunch of places that are associated with the KATY(towns and the river the KATY runs along!). With no timeline or plan, the thread turned to a bunch of questions since it was super confusing and his responses became aggressive. Ultimately the entire non-plan plan was scrapped and he bought a mountainbike.
I did give a laugh or two when I first read the thread since the KATY was mentioned as a location for the ride. The thread went just as well as those old KATY threads from squeeze.
The latest thread was fun- he declared he would buy a new bike to bikepack for many weeks this fall in the midwest, but without a plan of when or where. Expensive wheels were a must and they would have to be ordered with wait time. Then he declared he would ride to the KATY while avoiding a bunch of places that are associated with the KATY(towns and the river the KATY runs along!). With no timeline or plan, the thread turned to a bunch of questions since it was super confusing and his responses became aggressive. Ultimately the entire non-plan plan was scrapped and he bought a mountainbike.
I did give a laugh or two when I first read the thread since the KATY was mentioned as a location for the ride. The thread went just as well as those old KATY threads from squeeze.
I think being a real person on the forums helps temper the holier than thou mindset as it's pretty easy to reference the opinion to the person holding it. When you remain anonymous you can say anything, but at the same time what is said means less because it's just words.
Most people don't ride drops because they are ----. Most people can't do this because they are ----. Most people don't know how to ----. Blah blah....
Who are "most people" and how much better are you than them?
As this relates to which hand position one uses on the handle bars.. People probably put their hands where they like because of the design of the bike, the style of rising they do and because it feels right. Not because they are lazy, stupid or unfit.
#681
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I think the temptation can be to sort of drape your hands over the hoods, and not have a good grip on any part of the underside of the bar.
Anecdotal, I know, but I was once on a group ride in a paceline doing about 25, with my hands draped over the hoods, and not gripping any part of the underside of the bars. Hit a golf ball-sized rock with my front wheel that no one called out, which sent both hands flying off the bars immediately, and I went down helplessly flailing for my brakes, at full speed. Worst crash I ever had, I still regularly feel the effect of it in the hip I went down on (hard).
While it's not impossible to lose your grip while in the drops, nor is a person's grip necessarily any less secure on the hoods if you're really hanging on, it's just there's the temptation when you're tired to not hold onto the hoods as tightly as you should. So for that reason, and to prevent another similar crash, I play it safe and stay in the drops when there's any potential danger ahead (or I can't see well enough to tell).
Anecdotal, I know, but I was once on a group ride in a paceline doing about 25, with my hands draped over the hoods, and not gripping any part of the underside of the bars. Hit a golf ball-sized rock with my front wheel that no one called out, which sent both hands flying off the bars immediately, and I went down helplessly flailing for my brakes, at full speed. Worst crash I ever had, I still regularly feel the effect of it in the hip I went down on (hard).
While it's not impossible to lose your grip while in the drops, nor is a person's grip necessarily any less secure on the hoods if you're really hanging on, it's just there's the temptation when you're tired to not hold onto the hoods as tightly as you should. So for that reason, and to prevent another similar crash, I play it safe and stay in the drops when there's any potential danger ahead (or I can't see well enough to tell).
#682
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I Got some wheels that I don't care about. Do you gander to hit a speed bump or a pot hole at 20 mph. to learn first hand the weakness of that grip?
#683
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so they are called nose wheelies??? You are being 100% serious?
You better tell that to all of the Videos teaching MTB how to Purposefully ENDO as a useful skill on the trails! and no they are not teaching people how to CRASH. or uhh what did you say it was? nose wheelie. I am Pretty sure I do have a clue. Trying to Insult me isn't helping your argument any.
You better tell that to all of the Videos teaching MTB how to Purposefully ENDO as a useful skill on the trails! and no they are not teaching people how to CRASH. or uhh what did you say it was? nose wheelie. I am Pretty sure I do have a clue. Trying to Insult me isn't helping your argument any.
The real point here is that one of the crashes you show in post 643 on page 26, weren’t caused by the rider’s hand position nor could they have been prevented by hand position.
As to complaining about insults, it’s a little late in the game for you to be complaining about that. You have insulted and mocked me far more than I have insulted you. I don’t usually result to insults but I do have limits.
E.G. I say being employed helps pay the bills. Yet If I am unemployed. does that change my statement to being FALSE? NO it does not.
Now I understand why so much of what is being said to you is coming back twisted. Drop bars, grips, braking, which way is better. and you want to make it about me and what I do? what I do is irrelevant. what some pro cyclocross rider does is irrelevant.
what Th Pros say as a group on high speed descents is relevant. Well apparently it isn't relevant to YOU. Fine, but that doesn't change what it is.
Is poison still poison , if you don't eat/drink it? YES it is!!!!
the same with braking from the drops is superior, regardless of if you or I or anyone does, or does not do it that way.
Control is superior from the drops, regardless of who is or who is not using the drops.
quit making it about what people do. Vs what is, regardless of what people do.
I mean for **** sake, they drank from pewter and killed them selves with lead forever. 1 example of 1,000 that people do stuff wrong as a GROUP often!!!! Your arguments are all based on what people do. vs What is, regardless of what people do.
Now I understand why so much of what is being said to you is coming back twisted. Drop bars, grips, braking, which way is better. and you want to make it about me and what I do? what I do is irrelevant. what some pro cyclocross rider does is irrelevant.
what Th Pros say as a group on high speed descents is relevant. Well apparently it isn't relevant to YOU. Fine, but that doesn't change what it is.
Is poison still poison , if you don't eat/drink it? YES it is!!!!
the same with braking from the drops is superior, regardless of if you or I or anyone does, or does not do it that way.
Control is superior from the drops, regardless of who is or who is not using the drops.
quit making it about what people do. Vs what is, regardless of what people do.
I mean for **** sake, they drank from pewter and killed them selves with lead forever. 1 example of 1,000 that people do stuff wrong as a GROUP often!!!! Your arguments are all based on what people do. vs What is, regardless of what people do.
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#685
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Anecdotal, I know, but I was once on a group ride in a paceline doing about 25, with my hands draped over the hoods, and not gripping any part of the underside of the bars. Hit a golf ball-sized rock with my front wheel that no one called out, which sent both hands flying off the bars immediately, and I went down helplessly flailing for my brakes, at full speed. Worst crash I ever had, I still regularly feel the effect of it in the hip I went down on (hard).
The best advice I've seen for that is when you're riding in close quarters, and riding in the drops guards against someone hooking your handlebars. Also positions your elbows better to fend someone off. I literally never ride in those conditions so I tend to disregard those factors.
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Yes, I’m serious. People use the wrong terms all the time. You, suggesting that someone washing out a wheel is an “endo” is just wrong. You even seem to know what an endo is because you say you “prevented” on based on how you grip the bars but using a nose wheelie to make a turn is different from an end-over. It could result in a endo if done wrong but it’s not the same as going over the bars. .
I am suggesting he couldn't control the endo (going with GMBN definition here) because of riding the hoods. Hoods offers pull grip, but not a whole lot of push grip. In an endo situation you want a grip where you can PUSH!
Both videos shows crashes that resulted by the rider being in an ENDO position. (again using GMBN definition of an Endo). I have also showed you a Video of a rider controlling an endo by being in the Drops. It's been a while since I have watched Martyn Ashton's road bike party videos. However I would guess that he is also using the drops most of the time. Especially on anything that requires extreme grip on the bars.
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Yes, it is relevant if you are telling the rest of us that we are riding wrong. If riding on the hoods is so bad in as many situations as you imply, then riding on the hoods would seem to be dangerous in all situations. And sorry but “do as I say but not as I do” is a really poor argument.
Drops offers superior grip and control to hoods! "Wrong" is your word not mine!
#690
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better tell GMBN then.....
since you know better than them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw66hL6KRDw
since you know better than them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw66hL6KRDw
In my 30+ years of actually mountain biking (vs. Googling Youtube videos) nobody has ever referred to a nose bonk/nose wheelie/nose manual/euro turn as an endo.
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again you are twisting things. The washing out was cause by not being able to control the endo. In which the result was an over the bars crash.
I am suggesting he couldn't control the endo (going with GMBN definition here) because of riding the hoods. Hoods offers pull grip, but not a whole lot of push grip. In an endo situation you want a grip where you can PUSH!
Both videos shows crashes that resulted by the rider being in an ENDO position. (again using GMBN definition of an Endo). I have also showed you a Video of a rider controlling an endo by being in the Drops. It's been a while since I have watched Martyn Ashton's road bike party videos. However I would guess that he is also using the drops most of the time. Especially on anything that requires extreme grip on the bars.
I am suggesting he couldn't control the endo (going with GMBN definition here) because of riding the hoods. Hoods offers pull grip, but not a whole lot of push grip. In an endo situation you want a grip where you can PUSH!
Both videos shows crashes that resulted by the rider being in an ENDO position. (again using GMBN definition of an Endo). I have also showed you a Video of a rider controlling an endo by being in the Drops. It's been a while since I have watched Martyn Ashton's road bike party videos. However I would guess that he is also using the drops most of the time. Especially on anything that requires extreme grip on the bars.
In the second video, the rider does do an endo but it is because he didn’t lift the rear wheel over the log. He wasn’t trying to do an nose wheelie at all. There was no reason. He thought he had cleared the log and was focused on the flat section in front of him. The wheel hit the log and tire pressure caused the wheel to rebound up into the air. Hopping the wheel higher into the air to avoid a rear tire strike would have prevent the endo.
In neither situation would a different grip on the bars made a diffence.
Further, you don’t PUSH on the bars to prevent an endo...a real one, not a nose wheelie. If, and that is a big if, you have time, you release the brakes to stop the weight shift and try to push back but the hand movement is more of a pull back than a push forward because you are trying to shift weight from the front of the bike to the rear of the bike. Being in the drops or being on the hoods or holding onto flat bars won’t make a difference.
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#692
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I disagree.
Point being is I can find you many Examples of over the bar crashes from the hoods. But how many can you find from the drops?
Even on Flat gravel roads, you have been shown a guy losing his grip on the hoods, and going over the bars.
Bottom line In your case, and in many other cases. A Person rotates their handle bars upwards to give them more of a LIP for riding the hoods. Which does increase the Grip of the hood, but renders the drops useless.
I'll never change your mind, which is fine. but for others out there. It makes more sense to FIT their bike as to where they can use the best of both worlds. The Hoods and the Drops and use both comfortably.
Rotating your bars up is like buying a jacket then cutting the sleeves off because you got hot.
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...
In neither situation would a different grip on the bars made a diffence.
Further, you don’t PUSH on the bars to prevent an endo...a real one, not a nose wheelie. If, and that is a big if, you have time, you release the brakes to stop the weight shift and try to push back but the hand movement is more of a pull back than a push forward because you are trying to shift weight from the front of the bike to the rear of the bike. Being in the drops or being on the hoods or holding onto flat bars won’t make a difference.
In neither situation would a different grip on the bars made a diffence.
Further, you don’t PUSH on the bars to prevent an endo...a real one, not a nose wheelie. If, and that is a big if, you have time, you release the brakes to stop the weight shift and try to push back but the hand movement is more of a pull back than a push forward because you are trying to shift weight from the front of the bike to the rear of the bike. Being in the drops or being on the hoods or holding onto flat bars won’t make a difference.
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Cyccommute is right on this part. Provided the body is positioned the same, drops vs hoods makes no difference in flipping over. It is determined by the (height) center of gravity, deceleration and the distance to the tire's contact point. "Pushing" has no effect unless we move our body back.
besides, you all missed the point.
If you can't keep the tire rolling in the direction of the momentum, you will go over the bars.
in part, Rolling on the front tire means staying in control of it's direction of travel! Superior control is in the drops.
#697
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What's funny about using this for an example is that it teaches exactly what not to do in the case of an unexpected "endo".
In the video, the host is teaching how to create a situation where the back tire lifts, hence weight forward, front brake applied - a front wheelie.
In a real endo you want to counter act that very movement, not create it. Butt backwards off the rear of the seat to move COG back. Better chance of that when on the hoods than down in the drops where your weight is already more forward over the COG of the front wheel.
Plus, the guy in the video is in a posture more like hoods than drops.
In the video, the host is teaching how to create a situation where the back tire lifts, hence weight forward, front brake applied - a front wheelie.
In a real endo you want to counter act that very movement, not create it. Butt backwards off the rear of the seat to move COG back. Better chance of that when on the hoods than down in the drops where your weight is already more forward over the COG of the front wheel.
Plus, the guy in the video is in a posture more like hoods than drops.
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I don't trust you on this one, you didn't tell me "honestly" this time.
besides, you all missed the point.
If you can't keep the tire rolling in the direction of the momentum, you will go over the bars.
in part, Rolling on the front tire means staying in control of it's direction of travel! Superior control is in the drops.
besides, you all missed the point.
If you can't keep the tire rolling in the direction of the momentum, you will go over the bars.
in part, Rolling on the front tire means staying in control of it's direction of travel! Superior control is in the drops.
So back to you @cyccommute sorry for butting in on your argument(s).
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I agree with you on both 1 and 2, but I don't see any difference in weight distribution and I don't see any physical justification for including leverage in the control input as a factor of more control. Moreover, I don't see any greater leverage in the drops either - the distance to the pivot point are essentially the same either way.