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Are Drop bars just an illusion for most?

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Are Drop bars just an illusion for most?

Old 10-21-19, 06:47 AM
  #676  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
I don't think Terry is a troll by any means, just someone who believes what he believes - which is cool even if I don't see things the same way.
And while I sometimes don't see things the same as Stuart as well, I respect that he's not afraid to have a real life presence on the board so that I at least know his opinions are based on actual experience. Like me, not perfect but what you see is pretty well what you get. It's honest.

But the other poster here, who loves to denigrate other people for being unfit and unhealthy is pretty well a troll imo. Vague, anonymous, no pics of him or his bike to substantiate how uber fit and awesome he is in comparison, he just puts people down from the shadows of obscurity. No honesty.
He is an expert in gravel riding too- its often times entertaining to read. He has strong views on an aluminum Trek frame that rode harshly, and hasnt gotten a different gravel bike in over a year I think. But dang he has strong opinions on riding, distance, equipment, and other's experiences and preferences.
The latest thread was fun- he declared he would buy a new bike to bikepack for many weeks this fall in the midwest, but without a plan of when or where. Expensive wheels were a must and they would have to be ordered with wait time. Then he declared he would ride to the KATY while avoiding a bunch of places that are associated with the KATY(towns and the river the KATY runs along!). With no timeline or plan, the thread turned to a bunch of questions since it was super confusing and his responses became aggressive. Ultimately the entire non-plan plan was scrapped and he bought a mountainbike.

I did give a laugh or two when I first read the thread since the KATY was mentioned as a location for the ride. The thread went just as well as those old KATY threads from squeeze.
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Old 10-21-19, 06:53 AM
  #677  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Nope. Wouldn’t be caught dead in jeans on a bicycle.
If jeans on a bike aren’t working for you, you’re probably not wearing them tight enough.
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Old 10-21-19, 08:01 AM
  #678  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
point is you don't do it by resting your thumb, fingers, and hand on the top of the bar. You grab the bar with your thumbs under the bar!! The only way your hand will come off the bar is if you let go. or if your hands slides 5" out and off the end of the bar.

To get the same thumb grip on a Drop bar you do it in the drops. as your hand can only slide down or up. the only way it comes off is about 6" backwards. or letting go.

anatomy will not allow you the same grip on the hoods.
I don't get it. The grip is almost the same, just rotated from the flat bars grip. Even though this guy is gripping loosely, the thumb and fingers wrap around the hoods. There is no issue with losing your grip or sliding off the hoods.


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Old 10-21-19, 08:12 AM
  #679  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I don't get it. The grip is almost the same, just rotated from the flat bars grip. Even though this guy is gripping loosely, the thumb and fingers wrap around the hoods. There is no issue with losing your grip or sliding off the hoods.


I think the temptation can be to sort of drape your hands over the hoods, and not have a good grip on any part of the underside of the bar.

Anecdotal, I know, but I was once on a group ride in a paceline doing about 25, with my hands draped over the hoods, and not gripping any part of the underside of the bars. Hit a golf ball-sized rock with my front wheel that no one called out, which sent both hands flying off the bars immediately, and I went down helplessly flailing for my brakes, at full speed. Worst crash I ever had, I still regularly feel the effect of it in the hip I went down on (hard).

While it's not impossible to lose your grip while in the drops, nor is a person's grip necessarily any less secure on the hoods if you're really hanging on, it's just there's the temptation when you're tired to not hold onto the hoods as tightly as you should. So for that reason, and to prevent another similar crash, I play it safe and stay in the drops when there's any potential danger ahead (or I can't see well enough to tell).
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Old 10-21-19, 08:19 AM
  #680  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
He is an expert in gravel riding too- its often times entertaining to read. He has strong views on an aluminum Trek frame that rode harshly, and hasnt gotten a different gravel bike in over a year I think. But dang he has strong opinions on riding, distance, equipment, and other's experiences and preferences.
The latest thread was fun- he declared he would buy a new bike to bikepack for many weeks this fall in the midwest, but without a plan of when or where. Expensive wheels were a must and they would have to be ordered with wait time. Then he declared he would ride to the KATY while avoiding a bunch of places that are associated with the KATY(towns and the river the KATY runs along!). With no timeline or plan, the thread turned to a bunch of questions since it was super confusing and his responses became aggressive. Ultimately the entire non-plan plan was scrapped and he bought a mountainbike.

I did give a laugh or two when I first read the thread since the KATY was mentioned as a location for the ride. The thread went just as well as those old KATY threads from squeeze.
Yep. And like squeeze who was all judgement with no experience other than reading advertisers spec sheets, it isn't the individual perspective so much as the constant put down of others as if he were all that and a bag of chips while never really revealing anything real about who he is.

I think being a real person on the forums helps temper the holier than thou mindset as it's pretty easy to reference the opinion to the person holding it. When you remain anonymous you can say anything, but at the same time what is said means less because it's just words.

Most people don't ride drops because they are ----. Most people can't do this because they are ----. Most people don't know how to ----. Blah blah....
Who are "most people" and how much better are you than them?

As this relates to which hand position one uses on the handle bars.. People probably put their hands where they like because of the design of the bike, the style of rising they do and because it feels right. Not because they are lazy, stupid or unfit.
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Old 10-21-19, 08:24 AM
  #681  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985
I think the temptation can be to sort of drape your hands over the hoods, and not have a good grip on any part of the underside of the bar.

Anecdotal, I know, but I was once on a group ride in a paceline doing about 25, with my hands draped over the hoods, and not gripping any part of the underside of the bars. Hit a golf ball-sized rock with my front wheel that no one called out, which sent both hands flying off the bars immediately, and I went down helplessly flailing for my brakes, at full speed. Worst crash I ever had, I still regularly feel the effect of it in the hip I went down on (hard).

While it's not impossible to lose your grip while in the drops, nor is a person's grip necessarily any less secure on the hoods if you're really hanging on, it's just there's the temptation when you're tired to not hold onto the hoods as tightly as you should. So for that reason, and to prevent another similar crash, I play it safe and stay in the drops when there's any potential danger ahead (or I can't see well enough to tell).
By your own story you must then ride in the drops any time time you are in a group ride paceline? As the cause of your crash was not terrain or road conditions but a random rock that no one called out. Wouldn't doing that all the time create just as much a temptation to not hold on tight in the drops, all the time? Using the drops when you expect danger wouldn't have helped prevent your crash because you did not expect danger, no?
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Old 10-21-19, 08:24 AM
  #682  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I don't get it. The grip is almost the same, just rotated from the flat bars grip. Even though this guy is gripping loosely, the thumb and fingers wrap around the hoods. There is no issue with losing your grip or sliding off the hoods.


I Got some wheels that I don't care about. Do you gander to hit a speed bump or a pot hole at 20 mph. to learn first hand the weakness of that grip?
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Old 10-21-19, 08:35 AM
  #683  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
so they are called nose wheelies??? You are being 100% serious?

You better tell that to all of the Videos teaching MTB how to Purposefully ENDO as a useful skill on the trails! and no they are not teaching people how to CRASH. or uhh what did you say it was? nose wheelie. I am Pretty sure I do have a clue. Trying to Insult me isn't helping your argument any.
Yes, I’m serious. People use the wrong terms all the time. You, suggesting that someone washing out a wheel is an “endo” is just wrong. You even seem to know what an endo is because you say you “prevented” on based on how you grip the bars but using a nose wheelie to make a turn is different from an end-over. It could result in a endo if done wrong but it’s not the same as going over the bars. Few people would actively try to do an endo.

The real point here is that one of the crashes you show in post 643 on page 26, weren’t caused by the rider’s hand position nor could they have been prevented by hand position.

As to complaining about insults, it’s a little late in the game for you to be complaining about that. You have insulted and mocked me far more than I have insulted you. I don’t usually result to insults but I do have limits.

Originally Posted by Metieval
How much, how often I am on the hoods, or I am in the drops.... means what. It means nothing and is irrelevant.

the argument is grip, superior braking....... What I do, what I don't do is irrelevant!
Yes, it is relevant if you are telling the rest of us that we are riding wrong. If riding on the hoods is so bad in as many situations as you imply, then riding on the hoods would seem to be dangerous in all situations. And sorry but “do as I say but not as I do” is a really poor argument.


Originally Posted by Metieval
E.G. I say being employed helps pay the bills. Yet If I am unemployed. does that change my statement to being FALSE? NO it does not.

Now I understand why so much of what is being said to you is coming back twisted. Drop bars, grips, braking, which way is better. and you want to make it about me and what I do? what I do is irrelevant. what some pro cyclocross rider does is irrelevant.
what Th Pros say as a group on high speed descents is relevant. Well apparently it isn't relevant to YOU. Fine, but that doesn't change what it is.

Is poison still poison , if you don't eat/drink it? YES it is!!!!
the same with braking from the drops is superior, regardless of if you or I or anyone does, or does not do it that way.

Control is superior from the drops, regardless of who is or who is not using the drops.

quit making it about what people do. Vs what is, regardless of what people do.

I mean for **** sake, they drank from pewter and killed them selves with lead forever. 1 example of 1,000 that people do stuff wrong as a GROUP often!!!! Your arguments are all based on what people do. vs What is, regardless of what people do.
Are you trying to make a point here? I don’t see it.
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Old 10-21-19, 08:42 AM
  #684  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
I Got some wheels that I don't care about. Do you gander to hit a speed bump or a pot hole at 20 mph. to learn first hand the weakness of that grip?
Honestly, do you really think I never have? You aren't talking to inexperienced people here.
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Old 10-21-19, 08:49 AM
  #685  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985
I think the temptation can be to sort of drape your hands over the hoods, and not have a good grip on any part of the underside of the bar.
Granted I've seen that quite a bit and ride holding it loosely myself sometimes. I'm more guilty of that when sitting up gripping near the stem. I just don't agree that the hoods are fundamentally more difficult to grip securely than drops or flat bars.

Anecdotal, I know, but I was once on a group ride in a paceline doing about 25, with my hands draped over the hoods, and not gripping any part of the underside of the bars. Hit a golf ball-sized rock with my front wheel that no one called out, which sent both hands flying off the bars immediately, and I went down helplessly flailing for my brakes, at full speed. Worst crash I ever had, I still regularly feel the effect of it in the hip I went down on (hard).

The best advice I've seen for that is when you're riding in close quarters, and riding in the drops guards against someone hooking your handlebars. Also positions your elbows better to fend someone off. I literally never ride in those conditions so I tend to disregard those factors.
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Old 10-21-19, 08:52 AM
  #686  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Yes, I’m serious. People use the wrong terms all the time. You, suggesting that someone washing out a wheel is an “endo” is just wrong. You even seem to know what an endo is because you say you “prevented” on based on how you grip the bars but using a nose wheelie to make a turn is different from an end-over. It could result in a endo if done wrong but it’s not the same as going over the bars. .
again you are twisting things. The washing out was cause by not being able to control the endo. In which the result was an over the bars crash.

I am suggesting he couldn't control the endo (going with GMBN definition here) because of riding the hoods. Hoods offers pull grip, but not a whole lot of push grip. In an endo situation you want a grip where you can PUSH!

Both videos shows crashes that resulted by the rider being in an ENDO position. (again using GMBN definition of an Endo). I have also showed you a Video of a rider controlling an endo by being in the Drops. It's been a while since I have watched Martyn Ashton's road bike party videos. However I would guess that he is also using the drops most of the time. Especially on anything that requires extreme grip on the bars.
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Old 10-21-19, 08:53 AM
  #687  
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Yesterday's ride. 80km's up and down a mountain valley in cold drizzle.
I probably didn't lose my hoods grip with mittens on because I wiped my nose a lot and they got sticky. Lucky me.

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Old 10-21-19, 08:57 AM
  #688  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Honestly, do you really think I never have? You aren't talking to inexperienced people here.
If you have "honestly" hit bumps that hard while holding the hoods, then you already "honestly" know what the weakness is.
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Old 10-21-19, 09:03 AM
  #689  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute



Yes, it is relevant if you are telling the rest of us that we are riding wrong. If riding on the hoods is so bad in as many situations as you imply, then riding on the hoods would seem to be dangerous in all situations. And sorry but “do as I say but not as I do” is a really poor argument.
Did I tell you you are doing it wrong for riding the hoods? Or are you just twisting words again?

Drops offers superior grip and control to hoods! "Wrong" is your word not mine!
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Old 10-21-19, 09:14 AM
  #690  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
better tell GMBN then.....

since you know better than them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw66hL6KRDw
Must be a Brit thing.

In my 30+ years of actually mountain biking (vs. Googling Youtube videos) nobody has ever referred to a nose bonk/nose wheelie/nose manual/euro turn as an endo.
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Old 10-21-19, 09:20 AM
  #691  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
again you are twisting things. The washing out was cause by not being able to control the endo. In which the result was an over the bars crash.

I am suggesting he couldn't control the endo (going with GMBN definition here) because of riding the hoods. Hoods offers pull grip, but not a whole lot of push grip. In an endo situation you want a grip where you can PUSH!

Both videos shows crashes that resulted by the rider being in an ENDO position. (again using GMBN definition of an Endo). I have also showed you a Video of a rider controlling an endo by being in the Drops. It's been a while since I have watched Martyn Ashton's road bike party videos. However I would guess that he is also using the drops most of the time. Especially on anything that requires extreme grip on the bars.
You seem to be confused about what is going on in both videos. Even if we use your (incorrect) definition of an “endo”, neither rider in the two videos was doing it. Neither rider was actively trying to stand on the front wheel for any reason. There would be no advantage for the rider in the first video to do so. He was making a corner on a soft surface and the corner was not sharp enough to warrant a nose wheelie turn. A nose wheelie turn on sand is detrimental to making that kind of turn as it puts all the weight of the rider on the front wheel and just digs it down into the sand, slowing the wheel and increasing the chances of a crash.

In the second video, the rider does do an endo but it is because he didn’t lift the rear wheel over the log. He wasn’t trying to do an nose wheelie at all. There was no reason. He thought he had cleared the log and was focused on the flat section in front of him. The wheel hit the log and tire pressure caused the wheel to rebound up into the air. Hopping the wheel higher into the air to avoid a rear tire strike would have prevent the endo.

In neither situation would a different grip on the bars made a diffence.

Further, you don’t PUSH on the bars to prevent an endo...a real one, not a nose wheelie. If, and that is a big if, you have time, you release the brakes to stop the weight shift and try to push back but the hand movement is more of a pull back than a push forward because you are trying to shift weight from the front of the bike to the rear of the bike. Being in the drops or being on the hoods or holding onto flat bars won’t make a difference.
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Old 10-21-19, 10:15 AM
  #692  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute

In neither situation would a different grip on the bars made a diffence.


I disagree.

Point being is I can find you many Examples of over the bar crashes from the hoods. But how many can you find from the drops?

Even on Flat gravel roads, you have been shown a guy losing his grip on the hoods, and going over the bars.



Bottom line In your case, and in many other cases. A Person rotates their handle bars upwards to give them more of a LIP for riding the hoods. Which does increase the Grip of the hood, but renders the drops useless.

I'll never change your mind, which is fine. but for others out there. It makes more sense to FIT their bike as to where they can use the best of both worlds. The Hoods and the Drops and use both comfortably.

Rotating your bars up is like buying a jacket then cutting the sleeves off because you got hot.
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Old 10-21-19, 10:57 AM
  #693  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
...

Rotating your bars up is like buying a jacket then cutting the sleeves off because you got hot.
is like... letting the air out of your tires to slow down when pedaling into a headwind.
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Old 10-21-19, 11:06 AM
  #694  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
If you have "honestly" hit bumps that hard while holding the hoods, then you already "honestly" know what the weakness is.
That is correct - I do know.
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Old 10-21-19, 11:17 AM
  #695  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
...

In neither situation would a different grip on the bars made a diffence.

Further, you don’t PUSH on the bars to prevent an endo...a real one, not a nose wheelie. If, and that is a big if, you have time, you release the brakes to stop the weight shift and try to push back but the hand movement is more of a pull back than a push forward because you are trying to shift weight from the front of the bike to the rear of the bike. Being in the drops or being on the hoods or holding onto flat bars won’t make a difference.
Cyccommute is right on this part. Provided the body is positioned the same, drops vs hoods makes no difference in flipping over. It is determined by the (height) center of gravity, deceleration and the distance to the tire's contact point. "Pushing" has no effect unless we move our body back.
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Old 10-21-19, 12:02 PM
  #696  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Cyccommute is right on this part. Provided the body is positioned the same, drops vs hoods makes no difference in flipping over. It is determined by the (height) center of gravity, deceleration and the distance to the tire's contact point. "Pushing" has no effect unless we move our body back.
I don't trust you on this one, you didn't tell me "honestly" this time.

besides, you all missed the point.
If you can't keep the tire rolling in the direction of the momentum, you will go over the bars.

in part, Rolling on the front tire means staying in control of it's direction of travel! Superior control is in the drops.
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Old 10-21-19, 12:11 PM
  #697  
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What's funny about using this for an example is that it teaches exactly what not to do in the case of an unexpected "endo".

In the video, the host is teaching how to create a situation where the back tire lifts, hence weight forward, front brake applied - a front wheelie.

In a real endo you want to counter act that very movement, not create it. Butt backwards off the rear of the seat to move COG back. Better chance of that when on the hoods than down in the drops where your weight is already more forward over the COG of the front wheel.

Plus, the guy in the video is in a posture more like hoods than drops.

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Old 10-21-19, 12:17 PM
  #698  
jadocs
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I do go into fast corners with hands on hoods, and I see no difference in control. But what you say is pretty common, and you put it adamantly so serious question: why? How is it "more control" in the drops than the hoods?
Weight distribution and leverage from the drops which translates to more control.

I do happen to spend most of my time in the drops. #1 it's not uncomfortable, #2 I put down more power from the drops.
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Old 10-21-19, 12:18 PM
  #699  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
I don't trust you on this one, you didn't tell me "honestly" this time.

besides, you all missed the point.
If you can't keep the tire rolling in the direction of the momentum, you will go over the bars.

in part, Rolling on the front tire means staying in control of it's direction of travel! Superior control is in the drops.
Eh? I'll note for the record that none of that is right, but the issue is approaching physical mechanics and my policy is to not argue or explain it, so everyone shall be spared that.

So back to you @cyccommute sorry for butting in on your argument(s).
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Old 10-21-19, 12:21 PM
  #700  
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Originally Posted by jadocs
Weight distribution and leverage from the drops which translates to more control.

I do happen to spend most of my time in the drops. #1 it's not uncomfortable, #2 I put down more power from the drops.
I agree with you on both 1 and 2, but I don't see any difference in weight distribution and I don't see any physical justification for including leverage in the control input as a factor of more control. Moreover, I don't see any greater leverage in the drops either - the distance to the pivot point are essentially the same either way.
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