What workouts should I do to increase my speed on flats?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
What workouts should I do to increase my speed on flats?
I am a small guy. I am 17 years old, 5’3” and 115lbs so putting down power to go fast on flats isn’t easy. People say I am really good at climbing and eh on the decents (I am ok with).
Generally every other day I go 20 miles at 20mph avg. I am 17 so don’t have crazy amounts of money for aero bikes. I ride a trek domane alr4 disc and it’s endurance. Where I ride is generally slightly hilly but no huge long climbs. It’s not a flood plain but not like The alps. The biggest thing that slows me down is head winds at like 12mph.
I want to get faster on flats and need a training plan. Tips?
Generally every other day I go 20 miles at 20mph avg. I am 17 so don’t have crazy amounts of money for aero bikes. I ride a trek domane alr4 disc and it’s endurance. Where I ride is generally slightly hilly but no huge long climbs. It’s not a flood plain but not like The alps. The biggest thing that slows me down is head winds at like 12mph.
I want to get faster on flats and need a training plan. Tips?
#2
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,535
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3889 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
I do a version of "speed work." One minute full gas in the saddle, 5 minutes easy spinning, repeat 6 times. One can take it easy for another 15 minutes, then repeat the set. High cadence during the full gas minute. I shift as I accelerate. Do the efforts in the drops. That's how I do them anyway.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1975 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times
in
173 Posts
Have you worked on your position? On flats you are always going to be at a disadvantage because total watts matter more than w/kg but you can do alot to cut through the wind with good positioning.
Try to emulate this position with flat forearms on the hoods
Try to emulate this position with flat forearms on the hoods
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
To ride fast you must ride fast. (Zen koan or training advice? Both actually)
And there are a lot of ways to skin this cat. I often do the one minute all outs that CFB recommends above.
Another version of this to find a small hill that leads to a long flat section (around here, I use levee roads): let the hill help you to get to your target speed (start with 26 mph) and then hold that speed for a full minute. Pedal easy back to the hill and repeat.
For explosive power, I do "drag race" interval: pick a gear in the middle of your cassette, start from a track stand or as slow as you can possibly balance and then drill it for 15 seconds, try to go as fast as you can by the end of the 15. Do not shift. I do 3 in the big ring (for me 53x16) and 3 in the small ring (38x16). In the big ring, the challenge is to get on top of the gear at the beginning. In the small ring, the challenge is to keep pressure on the pedals all the way through as you spin out the gear. Make sure you are very warmed up before you do these and that your bike is tuned. These can break bikes and riders if you're not.
And the time tested old school way is to ride with riders who are faster than you.
And there are a lot of ways to skin this cat. I often do the one minute all outs that CFB recommends above.
Another version of this to find a small hill that leads to a long flat section (around here, I use levee roads): let the hill help you to get to your target speed (start with 26 mph) and then hold that speed for a full minute. Pedal easy back to the hill and repeat.
For explosive power, I do "drag race" interval: pick a gear in the middle of your cassette, start from a track stand or as slow as you can possibly balance and then drill it for 15 seconds, try to go as fast as you can by the end of the 15. Do not shift. I do 3 in the big ring (for me 53x16) and 3 in the small ring (38x16). In the big ring, the challenge is to get on top of the gear at the beginning. In the small ring, the challenge is to keep pressure on the pedals all the way through as you spin out the gear. Make sure you are very warmed up before you do these and that your bike is tuned. These can break bikes and riders if you're not.
And the time tested old school way is to ride with riders who are faster than you.
#5
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,535
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3889 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
The post with the photo brings up a good point. You probably have a slammed -17° stem (or you should have). However there are also angled stems which can be flipped. You can't get into the position in the photo because your bars are too high because your headtube can't really get much shorter. So you drop your bars lower with a downward angled stem. You want your drops down somewhere almost even with your front tire. At your height/weight, you should be able to get quite low before your thighs hit your stomach in the drops. You want to be just a hair shy of that feeling.
Although the photo guy is too cramped on that little frame, he probably rides it because it's lighter and stiffer. He pays for it in that position by having his back bent so much his innards are cramped. I breathe a lot easier with a straight back. He's moved forward on the saddle to open his hip angle to help with that. All that said, it's illustrative of the back angle you want to achieve with level forearms.
You could go to a bike shop, have them put your bike on a trainer, and look to see what you could get away with for a down-angled stem.
Although the photo guy is too cramped on that little frame, he probably rides it because it's lighter and stiffer. He pays for it in that position by having his back bent so much his innards are cramped. I breathe a lot easier with a straight back. He's moved forward on the saddle to open his hip angle to help with that. All that said, it's illustrative of the back angle you want to achieve with level forearms.
You could go to a bike shop, have them put your bike on a trainer, and look to see what you could get away with for a down-angled stem.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1975 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times
in
173 Posts
The post with the photo brings up a good point. You probably have a slammed -17° stem (or you should have). However there are also angled stems which can be flipped. You can't get into the position in the photo because your bars are too high because your headtube can't really get much shorter. So you drop your bars lower with a downward angled stem. You want your drops down somewhere almost even with your front tire. At your height/weight, you should be able to get quite low before your thighs hit your stomach in the drops. You want to be just a hair shy of that feeling.
Although the photo guy is too cramped on that little frame, he probably rides it because it's lighter and stiffer. He pays for it in that position by having his back bent so much his innards are cramped. I breathe a lot easier with a straight back. He's moved forward on the saddle to open his hip angle to help with that. All that said, it's illustrative of the back angle you want to achieve with level forearms.
You could go to a bike shop, have them put your bike on a trainer, and look to see what you could get away with for a down-angled stem.
Although the photo guy is too cramped on that little frame, he probably rides it because it's lighter and stiffer. He pays for it in that position by having his back bent so much his innards are cramped. I breathe a lot easier with a straight back. He's moved forward on the saddle to open his hip angle to help with that. All that said, it's illustrative of the back angle you want to achieve with level forearms.
You could go to a bike shop, have them put your bike on a trainer, and look to see what you could get away with for a down-angled stem.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
The post with the photo brings up a good point. You probably have a slammed -17° stem (or you should have). However there are also angled stems which can be flipped. You can't get into the position in the photo because your bars are too high because your headtube can't really get much shorter. So you drop your bars lower with a downward angled stem. You want your drops down somewhere almost even with your front tire. At your height/weight, you should be able to get quite low before your thighs hit your stomach in the drops..
#9
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,535
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3889 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
I don't agree with or even understand these fit suggestions, though. I know no one that rides a -17 stem, and very few have slammed stems. In fact, with the realization that flat forearms are faster, it "seems" more people are raising their bars up a bit to be able to achieve that position. Plus without seeing his current fit, it's not a given what he needs.
OTOH, if my BMI were 20 like the OP instead of 24, maybe I would make that change.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
He's 5'3" on a 700c bike. He'll be a long way from flat back with flat forearms. I've always ridden slammed -17° stems. I still don't get my back flat on my carbon race bike and i'm 5'6-1/2". You might remember a guy who used to post here, short and powerful, good sprinter, used to post crit videos. I've forgotten his screen name, too bad. He used dropped stems like I describe. I've been tempted to do the same, but I do OK the way I am and don't ride a lot of flats.
OTOH, if my BMI were 20 like the OP instead of 24, maybe I would make that change.
OTOH, if my BMI were 20 like the OP instead of 24, maybe I would make that change.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
None of these guys have a negative stem or much drop:
Caleb Ewan's XXS Foil
Caleb Ewan's Scott Foil RC ? Gallery | Cyclingnews.com
Nairo Quintana
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...f-slx-gallery/
Mark Cavendish
https://road.cc/content/tech-news/22...ted-cervelo-s5
Caleb Ewan's XXS Foil
Caleb Ewan's Scott Foil RC ? Gallery | Cyclingnews.com
Nairo Quintana
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...f-slx-gallery/
Mark Cavendish
https://road.cc/content/tech-news/22...ted-cervelo-s5
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 9,083
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3376 Post(s)
Liked 5,518 Times
in
2,860 Posts
Try sprint training with Eddie:
#14
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,535
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3889 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
Yeah, carpediemracing I think. Flat backs are more typical of taller people with long torsos. At 5'11 with longer legs and a shorter torso I don't get even remotely flat. Even with 165 cranks, a forward saddle, and a significant amount of drop, I can't do it because of body type. It's even rarer to see shorter riders with flatter backs, and even more so to see shorter riders with big drops. I've ridden with a number of smaller cat 1s and pro/expros (and fast women) who didn't have much drop.
This is the race rig our OP should have. Yeah, I know, timtak and all that, but this rig worked for its rider. Many successful racers are taller folk, 5'9" and up, though that isn't tall by modern American standards. They don't understand how short folks' bike fit is compromised by the one-size-fits-all industry. Our OP should be on 600 wheels, not 700, but not going to happen. The bike shop has 700c bikes and that's that.
This is one of carpediem's videos:
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#15
Gravel Rocks
Getting more aero will help for sure at 20mph, but so will raising your FTP. Your size helps on climbs where power to weight ratio is king, but on the flats its really mostly raw power. You could be more specific on how long you want to be able to go fast on the flats - 2 minutes, 5, an hour? Steady state intervals would be the place to start from a training standpoint if you have adequate base miles under your belt and are talking about holding higher speeds on flats for extended periods. Do those 3x / week and a long ride one day / week would be my suggestion (long being 3-4 hours endurance pace).
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
Yeah, good memory! This is the photo I was remembering, from https://www.bikeforums.net/18829087-post5063.html
This is the race rig our OP should have. Yeah, I know, timtak and all that, but this rig worked for its rider.
This is the race rig our OP should have. Yeah, I know, timtak and all that, but this rig worked for its rider.
I've never seen a bike like this in real life. It won't work for the vast majority of people out there. I'd bet that bike that the OP couldn't ride it. It's a massive outlier.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
And patience. At 17, 18, 19 I couldn't average 20 mph for very long, even at 150 lbs. I think even with clip on aero bars my fastest 6 mile TT was only about 22ish.
Just no power.
It took a few years for my body to develop to the point of getting the strength and aerobic ability necessary. At 115 lbs you're simply not going to go fast on the flats at the moment. Keep getting in consistent mileage, though, and over the next few years your body will continue to grow and adapt. Learn pack skills, learn how to corner, work on the aero bits, and the picture will come together eventually.
Or you'll always be super light and have to pick your events accordingly. Certainly no problem with that, either.
#19
Sophomore Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,531
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1628 Post(s)
Liked 1,059 Times
in
633 Posts
What workouts should I do to increase my speed on flats?
Stop training in heels immediately. Seriously though, I think it comes down to intervals, unfortunately, wish there was a more enjoyable answer.
#20
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,535
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3889 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#23
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,535
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3889 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
Since power is going to be an issue, one has to look for gains in other places. Drag is the obvious place, so getting low and tight clothing are the simplest, cheapest, and will produce the most gains, like tomorrow. Nothing simpler than putting on an adjustable stem upside down and seeing how far one could go with that. About $30 plus shopping for clothing. maybe child's sizes. I have a friend who buys child's bike jerseys.
Now you got me thinking about it - I run a 110 stem on my single and those are readily available as adjustable. I've always felt too high up, even with the slammed -17° stem.
Now you got me thinking about it - I run a 110 stem on my single and those are readily available as adjustable. I've always felt too high up, even with the slammed -17° stem.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
I have no idea why you think just slapping a -17 degree stem on a bike and slamming the bars down of a completely unknown and unseen person is going to help. It's a really odd position to take.
Just getting lower does not automatically equate to being faster. That's not how fitting works.
Again, see the bikes of two of the fastest sprinters in the world further up thread. Completely opposite of your "recommendations". And it's kind of a big deal for them.
Just getting lower does not automatically equate to being faster. That's not how fitting works.
Again, see the bikes of two of the fastest sprinters in the world further up thread. Completely opposite of your "recommendations". And it's kind of a big deal for them.
Last edited by rubiksoval; 03-30-19 at 07:04 PM.
#25
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,535
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3889 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
I have no idea why you think just slapping a -17 degree stem on a bike and slamming the bars down of a completely unknown and unseen person is going to help. It's a really odd position to take.
Just getting lower does not automatically equate to being faster. That's not how fitting works.
Again, see the bikes of two of the fastest sprinters in the world further up thread. Completely opposite of your "recommendations". And it's kind of a big deal for them.
Just getting lower does not automatically equate to being faster. That's not how fitting works.
Again, see the bikes of two of the fastest sprinters in the world further up thread. Completely opposite of your "recommendations". And it's kind of a big deal for them.
As far as that sprinter-fit claim goes. you must see the difference between their drop and the drop on the Domane alr4 I posted. Why should the OP ignore elite fit practice?
__________________
Results matter
Results matter