What can the E-assist option bring for bicycle touring.
07-21-16, 03:34 PM
#251
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You are correct! But your are not seeing the forest from the trees.
I think everyone is saying the same thing.
XXX-bicycle touring!
Mountain-bicycle touring!
Road-bicycle touring!
Singlespeed-bicycle touring!
Recumbent-bicycle touring!
Cyclocross-bicycle touring!
Triathlon/time-trial-bicycle touring!
Hand-bicycle touring!
Hybrid-bicycle touring!
Touring-bicycle touring!
Electric-Assist-bicycle touring!
I think everyone is saying the same thing.
XXX-bicycle touring!
Mountain-bicycle touring!
Road-bicycle touring!
Singlespeed-bicycle touring!
Recumbent-bicycle touring!
Cyclocross-bicycle touring!
Triathlon/time-trial-bicycle touring!
Hand-bicycle touring!
Hybrid-bicycle touring!
Touring-bicycle touring!
Electric-Assist-bicycle touring!
Last edited by Caretaker; 07-21-16 at 03:50 PM.
07-21-16, 03:55 PM
#252
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As for people not caring about what I say... I might ask in response, why should anybody care what YOU say? How much bicycle touring have you done yourself? What gives you the credentials to be able to come here and dictate to us as a community what it is and isn't about? It seems to me that you're perhaps one of those people who come here to do their little bucket list tour, and gets all fired up about it for the period before it, and then you go do your tour and we never hear from you again. In the meantime, we have to put up with your social justice warrior BS as if it actually means something, because otherwise we hate puppies or disabled kids or whatever.
I made a different retort after this point but, In retrospect, I'm going to bow out of this portion of the discussion because it seems we are not advancing new ideas and just taking pokes at each other, myself included, in a way that could go on and on. In the end, that's not how I want to spend my time here. I will simply have to accept that we agree to disagree on this matter.
Thanks for reading my blog
Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-21-16 at 04:50 PM.
07-21-16, 04:05 PM
#253
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And I bet those disappearing people never, ever happen because that person did something just a bit different than is allowable by a someone else's definition of "bike touring" and caught all the same flak that is being tossed out here.
07-21-16, 04:28 PM
#254
Full Member
Um, no they're not.
One of these things is not like the others... all but the last item can be lumped together under the "self powered bicycle" category. The last item is really a category unto itself, i.e. "motorized bikes". Of course categorization is a tricky field at times, but it's something I have quite a bit of experience with.
People are asking me why I care about such things... I have been running a bicycle touring website for the last 16 years. Not just "a" bicycle touring website, but one of the largest in the world in terms of content (not to blow my own horn, but I'm not aware of any other websites with over 12,000 journals and articles dedicated to bicycle touring). And not to use this as an "argument from authority", but I think it is valid to say that I have probably been required to think deeper and harder than most about what is and what isn't appropriate for such a site. Every day, people try to post stuff that clearly isn't appropriate (e.g. just the other day I had to delete a new user who thought it would be just fine to post on my forum about garden furniture). There are clear cases, but where it gets really fun is the gray areas like e-bikes. I think it's fair to say that I have put a great deal of thought into that over the years. Also, as an object-oriented software developer since the mid 1980's, my brain is perhaps naturally hard wired to consider taxonomies, categories, types, sub-types and suchlike. Perhaps that, combined with a love of language, and running crazyguyonabike, and having to make daily decisions about what's appropriate for those 16 years, maybe this has made me especially sensitive to this stuff. In any case, I think I am making a reasonable argument that is hard to refute.
Neil
One of these things is not like the others... all but the last item can be lumped together under the "self powered bicycle" category. The last item is really a category unto itself, i.e. "motorized bikes". Of course categorization is a tricky field at times, but it's something I have quite a bit of experience with.
People are asking me why I care about such things... I have been running a bicycle touring website for the last 16 years. Not just "a" bicycle touring website, but one of the largest in the world in terms of content (not to blow my own horn, but I'm not aware of any other websites with over 12,000 journals and articles dedicated to bicycle touring). And not to use this as an "argument from authority", but I think it is valid to say that I have probably been required to think deeper and harder than most about what is and what isn't appropriate for such a site. Every day, people try to post stuff that clearly isn't appropriate (e.g. just the other day I had to delete a new user who thought it would be just fine to post on my forum about garden furniture). There are clear cases, but where it gets really fun is the gray areas like e-bikes. I think it's fair to say that I have put a great deal of thought into that over the years. Also, as an object-oriented software developer since the mid 1980's, my brain is perhaps naturally hard wired to consider taxonomies, categories, types, sub-types and suchlike. Perhaps that, combined with a love of language, and running crazyguyonabike, and having to make daily decisions about what's appropriate for those 16 years, maybe this has made me especially sensitive to this stuff. In any case, I think I am making a reasonable argument that is hard to refute.
Neil
If you don't like where/how electric-assist bicycles are being used, reach out to your local organizations, congressman, representative, etc... to change and/or comment on the laws around electric-assist-bicycles.
In your own back yard (Oregon) electric-assist bicycles have a legal definition. <1000W and <20mph (among other things).
They are allowed almost everywhere non-motorized-bicycles are in Oregon. This includes using them for touring almost everywhere non-motorized-bicycles are in Oregon.
If the internet went away tomorrow, that would not change the fact that people would use electric-assist bicycles for touring. If I ran into someone on the street and struck up a conversation about touring by bicycle, and such discussion went toward pannier recommendation, what difference does it make if he rides an electric-assist or not? I will not ignore him just because he uses an electric-assist bicycle. Would you?
07-21-16, 04:49 PM
#255
Senior Member
I still say this whole "problem" can be resolved easily, 
Ha, Ha, Just have a separate sub-forum in touring or a separate sub-forum in E-Bikes... Easy-peasy, No muss nor fuss all around... 
Ha, Ha, Just have a separate sub-forum in touring or a separate sub-forum in E-Bikes... Easy-peasy, No muss nor fuss all around...
07-21-16, 05:13 PM
#256
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Because if people can't leave a thread well enough alone if they have nothing to contribute but attacks, they'll peacefully deal with a whole subforum being there?
07-21-16, 05:43 PM
#257
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JMO as I am not a mod and probably never will be... 
07-21-16, 06:12 PM
#258
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That makes too much sense, and it would not give some folks something to argue about. Compromises did not seem to be on the table. It seemed like an all or none debate.
07-21-16, 06:29 PM
#260
Senior Member
Thus, Me arriving at the conclusion that a separate thread needs to, or should be started for E-Bike touring...
Whether in the Turing section, or in the E-Bike section... JMO
07-21-16, 06:36 PM
#261
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I would be totally fine with a sub forum in touring for e bikes, or a touring sub forum in the e bike section. My first choice would be a sub forum here. You could see the thread title, know it's about e bike touring and choose to either participate or not based on the nature of the question. Just like I choose to participate in threads I care about and ignore those I don't.
A disclaimer stating along the lines that the subforum is for discussions about touring issues using an e bike and not about e bike questions specifically. Those questions can be asked in the e bike section. Simple, open to participation yet limiting in scope, and on target with the general nature of the touring forum while acknowledging the difference.
The only concern I would have is that a touring section in the e bike forum might not garner the same experience about touring specific questions and would be continually referred here.
It's really what every thread essentially is if they are respected as such and I could see the mods feeling it was a step backwards in terms of self regulation by the members but it would keep out the people who want to argue whether any discussion on the subject is valid or not. If we took out all the debate along those lines in this thread all we would be left with are some stories by some people who have been able to tour with the assistance of an e bike. Interesting for some, ignored by others, drama free (and I'm including my participation in there as well).
A disclaimer stating along the lines that the subforum is for discussions about touring issues using an e bike and not about e bike questions specifically. Those questions can be asked in the e bike section. Simple, open to participation yet limiting in scope, and on target with the general nature of the touring forum while acknowledging the difference.
The only concern I would have is that a touring section in the e bike forum might not garner the same experience about touring specific questions and would be continually referred here.
It's really what every thread essentially is if they are respected as such and I could see the mods feeling it was a step backwards in terms of self regulation by the members but it would keep out the people who want to argue whether any discussion on the subject is valid or not. If we took out all the debate along those lines in this thread all we would be left with are some stories by some people who have been able to tour with the assistance of an e bike. Interesting for some, ignored by others, drama free (and I'm including my participation in there as well).
Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-21-16 at 06:45 PM.
07-21-16, 06:51 PM
#262
Senior Member
I would be totally fine with a sub forum in touring for e bikes, or a touring sub forum in the e bike section. My first choice would be a sub forum here. You could see the thread title, know it's about e bike touring and choose to either participate or not based on the nature of the question. Just like I choose to participate in threads I care about and ignore those I don't.
A disclaimer stating that the forum is for discussions about touring issues using an e bike and not about e bike questions specifically. Those questions can be asked in the e bike section. Simple, open to participation yet limiting in scope, and on target with the general nature of the touring forum.
The only concern I would have is that a touring section in the e bike forum might not garner the same experience about touring specific questions and would be continually referred here.
A disclaimer stating that the forum is for discussions about touring issues using an e bike and not about e bike questions specifically. Those questions can be asked in the e bike section. Simple, open to participation yet limiting in scope, and on target with the general nature of the touring forum.
The only concern I would have is that a touring section in the e bike forum might not garner the same experience about touring specific questions and would be continually referred here.
But then I thought about what questions would be asked by E-Bike touring people? Well now, I suspect it would go something like this... How far can my battery take me? How much assistance is too much? How do I charge My battery? So, I decided that most of those questions could be better answered in the E-Bike community... Thus a Touring E-Bike section would work better there, seeing as the E-Bike are just starting to get popular, here in N America, and also the slippery slope... It does present a problem for the touring community in general. Even for me, and I am 100% behind E-Touring.
Last edited by 350htrr; 07-21-16 at 06:56 PM.
07-21-16, 07:06 PM
#263
Senior Member
Um, no they're not.
One of these things is not like the others... all but the last item can be lumped together under the "self powered bicycle" category. The last item is really a category unto itself, i.e. "motorized bikes". Of course categorization is a tricky field at times, but it's something I have quite a bit of experience with. . . . . .
Neil
One of these things is not like the others... all but the last item can be lumped together under the "self powered bicycle" category. The last item is really a category unto itself, i.e. "motorized bikes". Of course categorization is a tricky field at times, but it's something I have quite a bit of experience with. . . . . .
Neil
Yes, it is very confusing that the one thing that is not like the others is called a "bike" by the marketing people. I wonder why they did that? I mean, there must be a technical term that more accurately describes a vehicle that has a "motor" and also has "pedals". Hang on while I do some research . .. .
Holy Crap! There IS a technical term for such a vehicle! And it has been in existence for decades!
OK, ready, here it comes . .. . .
Such a vehicle is called a MOPED!
Let's repeat : it is a MOPED!
Say it again, this time proudly: MOPED!
People want to tour on MOPEDS!
Hopefully, this clears up the confusion. These folks need to log on to www.mopedforums.net and then they can discuss these vehicles to their heart's content.
07-21-16, 07:20 PM
#264
Senior Member
Yes, it is very confusing that the one thing that is not like the others is called a "bike" by the marketing people. I wonder why they did that? I mean, there must be a technical term that more accurately describes a vehicle that has a "motor" and also has "pedals". Hang on while I do some research . .. .
Holy Crap! There IS a technical term for such a vehicle! And it has been in existence for decades!
OK, ready, here it comes . .. . .
Such a vehicle is called a MOPED!
Let's repeat : it is a MOPED!
Say it again, this time proudly: MOPED!
People want to tour on MOPEDS!
Hopefully, this clears up the confusion. These folks need to log on to www.mopedforums.net and then they can discuss these vehicles to their heart's content.
Holy Crap! There IS a technical term for such a vehicle! And it has been in existence for decades!
OK, ready, here it comes . .. . .
Such a vehicle is called a MOPED!
Let's repeat : it is a MOPED!
Say it again, this time proudly: MOPED!
People want to tour on MOPEDS!
Hopefully, this clears up the confusion. These folks need to log on to www.mopedforums.net and then they can discuss these vehicles to their heart's content.
07-21-16, 07:29 PM
#265
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These folks need to log on to www.mopedforums.net and then they can discuss these vehicles to their heart's content.
It may seem confusing to people who would rather rant than research. However, the reason that you are having trouble with these definitions is that you are trying to make up, on the fly, definitions that have already been made. The definitions for bicycles, mopeds, and motorcycles can be found in the law. Making up meanings for words that have already been defined in the law is a pointless exercise.
07-21-16, 08:01 PM
#266
Senior Member
If you were to log in there, you would find that what they are discussing are not e-bikes. You would have better luck at endless sphere. However, many of the vehicles they are discussing, in that forum, are also mopeds.
It may seem confusing to people who would rather rant than research. However, the reason that you are having trouble with these definitions is that you are trying to make up, on the fly, definitions that have already been made. The definitions for bicycles, mopeds, and motorcycles can be found in the law. Making up meanings for words that have already been defined in the law is a pointless exercise.
It may seem confusing to people who would rather rant than research. However, the reason that you are having trouble with these definitions is that you are trying to make up, on the fly, definitions that have already been made. The definitions for bicycles, mopeds, and motorcycles can be found in the law. Making up meanings for words that have already been defined in the law is a pointless exercise.
Just because they can convince a bunch of politicians that an electric moped is NO different than a human powered bicycle doesn't mean they convinced me.
As many others have said on this thread, there is a clear, distinct, bright line between non-motorized human powered transport, and motorized transport.
They are fundamentally different. I'm not sure why pointing this out leads people to think I hate electric mopeds. Quite the contrary. I think the country would be much better off if many more people rode them.
Still, words have meanings. A bicycle is one thing. An electric moped is something different. Not something bad, just not a bicycle.
07-21-16, 08:09 PM
#267
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Yes, it is very confusing that the one thing that is not like the others is called a "bike" by the marketing people. I wonder why they did that? I mean, there must be a technical term that more accurately describes a vehicle that has a "motor" and also has "pedals". Hang on while I do some research . .. .
Holy Crap! There IS a technical term for such a vehicle! And it has been in existence for decades!
OK, ready, here it comes . .. . .
Such a vehicle is called a MOPED!
Let's repeat : it is a MOPED!
Say it again, this time proudly: MOPED!
People want to tour on MOPEDS!
Hopefully, this clears up the confusion. These folks need to log on to www.mopedforums.net and then they can discuss these vehicles to their heart's content.
Holy Crap! There IS a technical term for such a vehicle! And it has been in existence for decades!
OK, ready, here it comes . .. . .
Such a vehicle is called a MOPED!
Let's repeat : it is a MOPED!
Say it again, this time proudly: MOPED!
People want to tour on MOPEDS!
Hopefully, this clears up the confusion. These folks need to log on to www.mopedforums.net and then they can discuss these vehicles to their heart's content.
Odd. None of the mopeds I have ever ridden required me to pedal pedals. Not to mention, most have 49cc or larger gas engines, something that ebikes definitely do not have.
Is the moped forum going to be able to tell me whether an Axiom or Blackburn rack is better for my needs? Do a lot of mopeds deck themselves out with Ortlieb panniers? I do bet there is a lot of info on Pasela tire offerings there, though, and the benefits of 28 v 35mm tires....
Know the difference between granny on an ebike and Froome on a regular bike in regards to touring? Not a damn thing, except depending on the ebike model, Froome could easily be putting out way more power and regardless of the model will still go far further in a day. If you really think that an ebike is closer to a moped or motorcycle than a regular bike, I suggest stepping back, and sorting out your actual argument. That line of reasoning makes absolutely no sense, other than a rant that has moved so far past its origin that it is incomprehensible.
In any case, it is a bit ridiculous to create a subforum because people insist on causing issues. If it is ebike specific, it can be easily moved to the ebike forum, if it is a general bike touring problem, individuals can be told to STFU if their only contribution is willfully trashing someone for using equipment they wouldn't use.
Last edited by jefnvk; 07-21-16 at 08:13 PM.
07-21-16, 08:31 PM
#268
Senior Member
Oh, I agree. E-bikes are definitely on the cutting edge of moped technology. Both on the [MO]tor side (electric!) and on the [PED]al side (you can actually pedal them!)
07-21-16, 09:05 PM
#270
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N
e-bikes designed to pedal, equipped with auxiliary propulsion with the primary aim to aid pedalling..... generating 250 watts or less are classed as an ordinary pedal bike, and can ride on cycle paths and anywhere else pedal bikes are allowed.
Other classifications:
L1e-A sames as above but generating 1000 watts, and speeds over 25 k/h.
L1e-B Mopeds........
There seems to be a difference between e-assist bikes and mopeds. At least some folks think so.
However, the wording said classed the same as pedal bikes, not the same.
Last edited by Doug64; 07-21-16 at 09:09 PM.
07-21-16, 09:17 PM
#271
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EXAXTLY... Thus, my first thought was the touring forum would be the best place for asking E-BIke touring questions...
But then I thought about what questions would be asked by E-Bike touring people? Well now, I suspect it would go something like this... How far can my battery take me? How much assistance is too much? How do I charge My battery? So, I decided that most of those questions could be better answered in the E-Bike community... Thus a Touring E-Bike section would work better there, seeing as the E-Bike are just starting to get popular, here in N America, and also the slippery slope... It does present a problem for the touring community in general. Even for me, and I am 100% behind E-Touring.
But then I thought about what questions would be asked by E-Bike touring people? Well now, I suspect it would go something like this... How far can my battery take me? How much assistance is too much? How do I charge My battery? So, I decided that most of those questions could be better answered in the E-Bike community... Thus a Touring E-Bike section would work better there, seeing as the E-Bike are just starting to get popular, here in N America, and also the slippery slope... It does present a problem for the touring community in general. Even for me, and I am 100% behind E-Touring.
If the E bike looked like this the question seems to be best answered in the bike touring forum. To me it looks like panniers would do as well as a frame bag and seat post bag. A front rack might have issues with the shocks but perhaps a Revelate sweet rolls bar bag would work. How far are you planning to go and what are you bringing etc...
Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-21-16 at 09:24 PM.
07-22-16, 01:22 AM
#272
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What can Ebikes, mopeds, motorbikes or other types of motorised transport bring to bicycle touring?
IMO confirmation of the enduring beauty and simplicity of the humble bicycle.
IMO confirmation of the enduring beauty and simplicity of the humble bicycle.
Last edited by Caretaker; 07-22-16 at 01:36 AM.
07-22-16, 04:33 AM
#273
Senior Member
legally defined as a bicycle by the law, i assume the law of the region or city or district
in which it operates, would be accepted as a bicycle for forum purposes. anything
less would be unfair and arbitrary.
oregon is pretty lenient, new york rather strict. euro law even stricter i suppose.
the same assisted vehicle may be legal in one place, but not the other. how do
you choose? if you pick oregon, you're just about to the point of accepting internal
combustion engines, pick new york and it's not fair to the oregonians. pick eu standards
and you've shut out the legal "assistcycles" of 95% of forum members.
07-22-16, 06:33 AM
#274
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............<snip>
As for people not caring about what I say... I might ask in response, why should anybody care what YOU say? How much bicycle touring have you done yourself? What gives you the credentials to be able to come here and dictate to us as a community what it is and isn't about? It seems to me that you're perhaps one of those people who come here to do their little bucket list tour, and gets all fired up about it for the period before it, and then you go do your tour and we never hear from you again. In the meantime, we have to put up with your social justice warrior BS as if it actually means something, because otherwise we hate puppies or disabled kids or whatever.
Neil
As for people not caring about what I say... I might ask in response, why should anybody care what YOU say? How much bicycle touring have you done yourself? What gives you the credentials to be able to come here and dictate to us as a community what it is and isn't about? It seems to me that you're perhaps one of those people who come here to do their little bucket list tour, and gets all fired up about it for the period before it, and then you go do your tour and we never hear from you again. In the meantime, we have to put up with your social justice warrior BS as if it actually means something, because otherwise we hate puppies or disabled kids or whatever.
Neil
Well I wouldn't wish to encumber you with yet another "sob story" as you have labelled my account of my experience with an e-assist bike, and as I may be "one of those people" as you charmingly put it, here's my experience of cycle-touring. For around forty years I've toured the UK and the continent and always cycle-camped in that time. Every year for that time I've spent over two months cycle-touring and usually cycling from Zeebrugge in Belgium to the south of France and criss-crossing from coast to coast on the way back. Now that I know is nothing much compared to some bike-travellers but it amounted to many thousands of miles and I think at the least it should allow me to comment on this topic without being described by you in derogatory terms.....and especially so since it's clear you see yourself as a champion of bike touring albeit in its purist form.
It does seem to me that your posts speak of much more than a mere disagreement about the definition of bike-touring. What you really appear to be championing is a way of seeing the world as you do and classifying those in it in terms of "us" and "them" and you justify this by seeing this as logical and approach unswayed by the arguments of these "social justice warriors".
I suspect that those of us who do ride e-bikes don't give a damn what you and others would label this activity and wonder why you are so exercised by the subject as to denigrate others that disagree with you.
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"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact man". Francis Bacon
07-22-16, 07:11 AM
#275
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Definitions:
Irish railways have always 'defined' bicycles as 'dogs' and even in the day of touchscreen displays still issue a ticket to cover both.
My touring bicycle has occasionally bitten me on the calf but as yet all my attempts to enter it in dog shows have been rebuffed.
Irish railways have always 'defined' bicycles as 'dogs' and even in the day of touchscreen displays still issue a ticket to cover both.
My touring bicycle has occasionally bitten me on the calf but as yet all my attempts to enter it in dog shows have been rebuffed.
Last edited by Caretaker; 07-22-16 at 07:25 AM.