Gillott mixte in the Atelier
11-27-20, 12:15 AM
#26
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First of all, that is beautiful. Ron Cooper spoke of forge-brazing at Gillott's. Gotta wonder how hard that must have been!
Why put the brake on the seat stays? Are the laterals too close together or too close to the seat tube to put the brake posts on the laterals with an extra long straddle wire (hanger in front of the seat post)? I've seen this done (and test rode it) and it worked fine, even with middling Weinmann centerpulls. Since the rear doesn't do as much, it doesn't need the mechanical advantage a short wire would give it. I also liked the lightness and simplicity of the design, with a naked wire running between the laterals up to a housing stop (and easily accessible adjuster if desired) wherever you want to put a bridge. Just food for thought. U-shaped cable runs (up to pulley, down to laterals, up the laterals even a short distance) are not my favorite at all due to the tendency of water to pool inside the housing at the low point. Although with modern stainless cables and PTFE-lined housing, it's less of a concern.
Why put the brake on the seat stays? Are the laterals too close together or too close to the seat tube to put the brake posts on the laterals with an extra long straddle wire (hanger in front of the seat post)? I've seen this done (and test rode it) and it worked fine, even with middling Weinmann centerpulls. Since the rear doesn't do as much, it doesn't need the mechanical advantage a short wire would give it. I also liked the lightness and simplicity of the design, with a naked wire running between the laterals up to a housing stop (and easily accessible adjuster if desired) wherever you want to put a bridge. Just food for thought. U-shaped cable runs (up to pulley, down to laterals, up the laterals even a short distance) are not my favorite at all due to the tendency of water to pool inside the housing at the low point. Although with modern stainless cables and PTFE-lined housing, it's less of a concern.
Chapman pulley treatment
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11-27-20, 02:12 PM
#28
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shows at the bottom bracket and chainstay sockets as well.
11-27-20, 03:50 PM
#29
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The Persistence Of Silly Memory - The Plot Thickens
Though I'm fairly certain this is not a Cooper frame, it may be a Philbrook. A collector with three Philbrooks wrote me his frames do not have this Cooper signature punch mark.
I went back to my sources to determine if I'm propounding misinformation, which I'm loathe to do. I try to practice rigorous honesty.
The gentleman considered to be The Expert on Philbrook by some, Bryan Clarke, writes:
"Sands and Bogdanowicz both mention a small punch mark that was placed under the right chainstay to identify frames built for others and this is corroborated by Keith Perry. However, owning a Meridian and a Grandini known to have been built by Bill and a number of other frames which were strong candidates I found none in this location. However, the punch marks do exist but just not in this location but once identified are consistently in the same place providing a eureka moment when discovered." Source.
Note Mr. Clarke rather cruelly does not specify where the mark might be, but he does imply he finds the mark on his Philbrooks he previously thought unmarked.
I've scrutinized all the photos in your Flickr album, but they don't cover every inch of that frame.
Is there a punch mark somewhere?
I went back to my sources to determine if I'm propounding misinformation, which I'm loathe to do. I try to practice rigorous honesty.
The gentleman considered to be The Expert on Philbrook by some, Bryan Clarke, writes:
"Sands and Bogdanowicz both mention a small punch mark that was placed under the right chainstay to identify frames built for others and this is corroborated by Keith Perry. However, owning a Meridian and a Grandini known to have been built by Bill and a number of other frames which were strong candidates I found none in this location. However, the punch marks do exist but just not in this location but once identified are consistently in the same place providing a eureka moment when discovered." Source.
Note Mr. Clarke rather cruelly does not specify where the mark might be, but he does imply he finds the mark on his Philbrooks he previously thought unmarked.
I've scrutinized all the photos in your Flickr album, but they don't cover every inch of that frame.
Is there a punch mark somewhere?
11-27-20, 08:11 PM
#30
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Yeah, a derailleur claw would look awful on this, IMO. I'm discussing with the customer to add a hanger, he's thinking of building it up as a 1X with upright bars. I've done this a few times as repairs to drewed bikes, but the dropouts are a bit thinner than modern derailleur hangers. I'm thinking of hacking off a hanger from a donor dropout, brass brazing it on flush with the inside, then building out the outside of the dropout face with silver brazed stainless faces to make it flush.
Fender issue will be around the twin laterals, which neck down to attach to the seat tube. That's the limiting factor on this build. 650b x 42 test fit was fine, but the fenders may have to indent around those skinny tubes.
As for brakes, I've checked with a set of RAIDs, they'll fit fine on the seat stays, but will require a pulley.
Fender issue will be around the twin laterals, which neck down to attach to the seat tube. That's the limiting factor on this build. 650b x 42 test fit was fine, but the fenders may have to indent around those skinny tubes.
As for brakes, I've checked with a set of RAIDs, they'll fit fine on the seat stays, but will require a pulley.
a lot to juggle.
a 1x set up would make your job easy but I don’t think a strong idea unless a single gear is employed now. If it has not been tried and proven acceptable at least a derailleur in the back. Then... chain guard?
11-27-20, 08:16 PM
#31
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i was guessing the rear Fender will need some metal forming to get it to go - the concept of mounting the rear brake to the laterals... and the fender while holding a nice line AND wheel exchange all at the same time!
a lot to juggle.
a 1x set up would make your job easy but I don’t think a strong idea unless a single gear is employed now. If it has not been tried and proven acceptable at least a derailleur in the back. Then... chain guard?
a lot to juggle.
a 1x set up would make your job easy but I don’t think a strong idea unless a single gear is employed now. If it has not been tried and proven acceptable at least a derailleur in the back. Then... chain guard?
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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11-27-20, 08:35 PM
#32
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As an enthusiast both of British lightweights of this era, as well as your own work, I'll be watching this project with excitement, Mark! I hope you're doing well. I'm currently building up that Mercian I was considering sending to you, realizing that its stock configuration is "good enough" for what it may have to offer... I still need to find another contender for you. I recall asking you about a Hetchins once and you said you would rather not touch such a sacred frame, but I fear by mucking around with Gillott Fleurs-de-Lys and the like you've already begun to desecrate holy ground! ;P
-Gregory
-Gregory
11-27-20, 09:10 PM
#33
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i was guessing the rear Fender will need some metal forming to get it to go - the concept of mounting the rear brake to the laterals... and the fender while holding a nice line AND wheel exchange all at the same time!
a lot to juggle.
a 1x set up would make your job easy but I don’t think a strong idea unless a single gear is employed now. If it has not been tried and proven acceptable at least a derailleur in the back. Then... chain guard?
a lot to juggle.
a 1x set up would make your job easy but I don’t think a strong idea unless a single gear is employed now. If it has not been tried and proven acceptable at least a derailleur in the back. Then... chain guard?
11-27-20, 10:17 PM
#34
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Thanks for the tip. I've looked everywhere for a makers mark, none to be found.
It'll be a challenge, but it looks like there's enough room there to massage a fender in. And you must be reading my emails to the customer, a chain guard is being considered, perhaps a cool vintage one. I have a few hanging in the Atelier.
“
It'll be a challenge, but it looks like there's enough room there to massage a fender in. And you must be reading my emails to the customer, a chain guard is being considered, perhaps a cool vintage one. I have a few hanging in the Atelier.
“
There should be a good candidate up there.
I think one of the two middle-ish ones without a provisional fit.
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11-28-20, 10:19 PM
#36
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As an enthusiast both of British lightweights of this era, as well as your own work, I'll be watching this project with excitement, Mark! I hope you're doing well. I'm currently building up that Mercian I was considering sending to you, realizing that its stock configuration is "good enough" for what it may have to offer... I still need to find another contender for you. I recall asking you about a Hetchins once and you said you would rather not touch such a sacred frame, but I fear by mucking around with Gillott Fleurs-de-Lys and the like you've already begun to desecrate holy ground! ;P
-Gregory
-Gregory
1. A recidivist customer sent me this frame all the way from Wales. That's a big commitment. The first one was a vintage Ephgrave that needed repair even before starting the 650b conversion process. It got a "pass" as it didn't have the original fork - I built a new one for it, so at that point it wasn't original.
2. It's already been media blasted. The original finish is gone. At best it would be a respray, so it's not original anymore.
3. There have already been mods to the frame. Bottle bosses, cable guides, and pump pegs are silver brazed, possibly not available in 1952, and these tiddly bits are definitely modern vintage.
Let the desecration begin!
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
Last edited by gugie; 11-30-20 at 10:08 PM.
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11-28-20, 10:20 PM
#37
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I think you're right about the choice of chain guards.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
11-28-20, 10:47 PM
#38
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Very, very nice!
OT: tried to go to Waxwing Bags site but got a security threat warning. Is there anything wrong with that site?
OT: tried to go to Waxwing Bags site but got a security threat warning. Is there anything wrong with that site?
11-29-20, 12:02 PM
#39
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edit: Warning seems to be gone now, check again and let me know!
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
11-29-20, 12:13 PM
#40
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some will let you proceed, some the browser balks.
only being distant observer web aware there have been features to tighten up security for the user and site owner, also a new style of “ambulance chaser” lawyer who works with a disabled “client” and files what is essentially an extortion suit. All can be fixed, just takes time and money, raises the cost of running a site.
I see a migration by smaller firms to FB and such to make management easier
11-29-20, 12:16 PM
#41
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Really interested to see the mock up of the rear wheel, tire, brake and fender entanglement.
11-29-20, 12:37 PM
#42
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No warning now, site works OK. Some great bags there!
11-29-20, 12:39 PM
#43
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I need to work through a couple of other projects, might get to this in a couple of weeks.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
11-29-20, 05:21 PM
#44
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a bunch of sites are showing this warning now.
some will let you proceed, some the browser balks.
only being distant observer web aware there have been features to tighten up security for the user and site owner, also a new style of “ambulance chaser” lawyer who works with a disabled “client” and files what is essentially an extortion suit. All can be fixed, just takes time and money, raises the cost of running a site.
I see a migration by smaller firms to FB and such to make management easier
some will let you proceed, some the browser balks.
only being distant observer web aware there have been features to tighten up security for the user and site owner, also a new style of “ambulance chaser” lawyer who works with a disabled “client” and files what is essentially an extortion suit. All can be fixed, just takes time and money, raises the cost of running a site.
I see a migration by smaller firms to FB and such to make management easier
11-29-20, 08:10 PM
#46
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a bunch of sites are showing this warning now.
some will let you proceed, some the browser balks.
only being distant observer web aware there have been features to tighten up security for the user and site owner, also a new style of “ambulance chaser” lawyer who works with a disabled “client” and files what is essentially an extortion suit. All can be fixed, just takes time and money, raises the cost of running a site.
I see a migration by smaller firms to FB and such to make management easier
some will let you proceed, some the browser balks.
only being distant observer web aware there have been features to tighten up security for the user and site owner, also a new style of “ambulance chaser” lawyer who works with a disabled “client” and files what is essentially an extortion suit. All can be fixed, just takes time and money, raises the cost of running a site.
I see a migration by smaller firms to FB and such to make management easier
Apologies for the thread derailment. I hope this information is helpful.
Brent
11-30-20, 11:06 AM
#48
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I'm really looking forward to progress pics on this build!
Yes! I want one in my herd eventually, I'm a bit tall for most of them at 5' 11" (with short legs though), but I browse CL for them halfway regularly hoping to find something for a future project.
Yes! I want one in my herd eventually, I'm a bit tall for most of them at 5' 11" (with short legs though), but I browse CL for them halfway regularly hoping to find something for a future project.
11-30-20, 11:16 AM
#49
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First of all, that is beautiful. Ron Cooper spoke of forge-brazing at Gillott's. Gotta wonder how hard that must have been!
Why put the brake on the seat stays? Are the laterals too close together or too close to the seat tube to put the brake posts on the laterals with an extra long straddle wire (hanger in front of the seat post)? I've seen this done (and test rode it) and it worked fine, even with middling Weinmann centerpulls. Since the rear doesn't do as much, it doesn't need the mechanical advantage a short wire would give it. I also liked the lightness and simplicity of the design, with a naked wire running between the laterals up to a housing stop (and easily accessible adjuster if desired) wherever you want to put a bridge. Just food for thought. U-shaped cable runs (up to pulley, down to laterals, up the laterals even a short distance) are not my favorite at all due to the tendency of water to pool inside the housing at the low point. Although with modern stainless cables and PTFE-lined housing, it's less of a concern.
Why put the brake on the seat stays? Are the laterals too close together or too close to the seat tube to put the brake posts on the laterals with an extra long straddle wire (hanger in front of the seat post)? I've seen this done (and test rode it) and it worked fine, even with middling Weinmann centerpulls. Since the rear doesn't do as much, it doesn't need the mechanical advantage a short wire would give it. I also liked the lightness and simplicity of the design, with a naked wire running between the laterals up to a housing stop (and easily accessible adjuster if desired) wherever you want to put a bridge. Just food for thought. U-shaped cable runs (up to pulley, down to laterals, up the laterals even a short distance) are not my favorite at all due to the tendency of water to pool inside the housing at the low point. Although with modern stainless cables and PTFE-lined housing, it's less of a concern.
11-30-20, 11:29 AM
#50
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Though I'm fairly certain this is not a Cooper frame, it may be a Philbrook. A collector with three Philbrooks wrote me his frames do not have this Cooper signature punch mark.
I went back to my sources to determine if I'm propounding misinformation, which I'm loathe to do. I try to practice rigorous honesty.
The gentleman considered to be The Expert on Philbrook by some, Bryan Clarke, writes:
"Sands and Bogdanowicz both mention a small punch mark that was placed under the right chainstay to identify frames built for others and this is corroborated by Keith Perry. However, owning a Meridian and a Grandini known to have been built by Bill and a number of other frames which were strong candidates I found none in this location. However, the punch marks do exist but just not in this location but once identified are consistently in the same place providing a eureka moment when discovered." Source.
Note Mr. Clarke rather cruelly does not specify where the mark might be, but he does imply he finds the mark on his Philbrooks he previously thought unmarked.
I've scrutinized all the photos in your Flickr album, but they don't cover every inch of that frame.
Is there a punch mark somewhere?
I went back to my sources to determine if I'm propounding misinformation, which I'm loathe to do. I try to practice rigorous honesty.
The gentleman considered to be The Expert on Philbrook by some, Bryan Clarke, writes:
"Sands and Bogdanowicz both mention a small punch mark that was placed under the right chainstay to identify frames built for others and this is corroborated by Keith Perry. However, owning a Meridian and a Grandini known to have been built by Bill and a number of other frames which were strong candidates I found none in this location. However, the punch marks do exist but just not in this location but once identified are consistently in the same place providing a eureka moment when discovered." Source.
Note Mr. Clarke rather cruelly does not specify where the mark might be, but he does imply he finds the mark on his Philbrooks he previously thought unmarked.
I've scrutinized all the photos in your Flickr album, but they don't cover every inch of that frame.
Is there a punch mark somewhere?
And edit! I finally learned how to do multi-quotes!!