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Building frame, ten years on.

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Building frame, ten years on.

Old 11-22-20, 06:54 PM
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lbgary
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Building frame, ten years on.

Ten years ago I got the bug, built five frames and gave four to my kids, fully equipped and ready to ride. I made a couple mistakes on mine I had thought I would live with, but five years ago I bought tubes from Henry James and lugs from Richard Sachs, intending to correct the errors but keep the same geometry, which was perfect for me. I am now faced with the daunting task of re-learning enough to get this frame built, working from my original drawing, which is barely adequate. It seems that when you are engrossed in a subject you can fall short on documentation, carrying much of the information in your head - not the best place, I am finding. First completed joint was the seat tube to bottom bracket. Twenty minutes brazing with silver, eight hours filing, grinding, sanding and scraping to remove excess silver inside and out, plus trying to figure out how, after facing the bottom bracket, the seat tube seems to need tweaking UP on my alignment table, but when I reverse the BB it still wants to go up. Seems to me I should get the opposite reading, but thatís not why Iím posting. After ten years, most of the suppliers I bought things like cables, braze-ons, seat stay tips, rack bosses and inserts, etc. from are not around or have limited stock. If I donít screw up any tubes or lugs, I will need to buy these things. I plan on using my old Ultegra components, they still look pretty good. Can anyone suggest current sources for those items I mentioned? Has Amazon become a good place to look for bike stuff?
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Old 11-22-20, 07:01 PM
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I would order from Framebuilder supply probably. Nova is OOS of a lot of things and they just moved. Not sure how responsive they are right now
But this thread is proof that nobody reads sticky threads.
https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuil...suppliers.html


If you watch Paul Brodie's video about making and aligning the front triangle, he says that the heat always shrinks the top of the bb shell. Pretty interesting video
Don't know if it's part one or part 2

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Old 11-22-20, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I would order from Framebuilder supply probably. Nova is OOS of a lot of things and they just moved. Not sure how responsive they are right now
But this thread is proof that nobody reads sticky threads.
https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuil...suppliers.html


If you watch Paul Brodie's video about making and aligning the front triangle, he says that the heat always shrinks the top of the bb shell. Pretty interesting video
Don't know if it's part one or part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVLruIgvVsc

Thanks for the link to Paul Brodie. Watching him work is like taking a refresher course, plus I got to see what the process looks like when done a master.
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Old 11-23-20, 06:09 PM
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The frame I built this winter I salvaged cable guides from an old Schwinn. Heated them up and pulled them off the old frame. They cleaned up nicely and was easy to do. I also salvaged a brake bridge and chain stay stiffener. Maybe not ideal or fancy, but it worked out quite well.
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Old 11-24-20, 04:31 AM
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You could probably use steel car brake pipe for cable guides. Brodie says it's the same size as that tubing he uses. Or even the copper stuff if you could work out how to solder/braze it on.
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Old 11-27-20, 05:39 PM
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OP here, problem solved. Silver brazed the dt/ht, came out pretty good, but about one degree off the desired angle. I was coldsetting, with pipes inserted in both tubes. After maybe five attempts with little change, I, naturally, pulled harder. The moment the dt kinked it sounded like a gunshot. I think this project has reached it’s conclusion. Of the problems I was trying to fix on my current bike, I think they can be solved without building a whole new frame. One is that the chainstay bridge, which is just a piece of tubing, is too far back, which means I have to deflate the tire to remove or install it. The other is rust, which powdercoating didn’t prevent. I’m thinking of stripping the finish off in the bb area and replacing the chainstay bridge with one of the cast ones with tire clearance, if I can find a source. Then send the whole frame to the powdercoaters for sandblasting and recoating. I’ve heard that some colors require two coats, therefore more rust protection. Sound reasonable?
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Old 11-27-20, 06:24 PM
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lbgary- No surprise that you kinked a tube setting it. Chainstay bridge replacement is an easy enough job. But do know that cast or not you'll likely spend nearly the same amount of time doing the replacement. I wouldn't consider thicker PC to be any more rust proof then thinner. From what I've been told the real issue is with how PC and steel mate together and not how much PC sits on top of the steel. Andy
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Old 11-27-20, 07:31 PM
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that stinks about the tube kinking. It's a disadvantage of modern tubes. BITD, you could wail on them and nothing bad would happen.
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Old 11-27-20, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by guy153 View Post
You could probably use steel car brake pipe for cable guides.

Dave Tesch used the rollers from SedisSport chains for the top tube housing guides. As others have noted, you can salvage braze-ons from derelict frames. I have a whole pile of bottom bracket cable guides and chainstay cable stops I fished out of the scrap barrel at Trek when marketing had us move shift cable routing from above the bottom bracket to underneath.
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Old 11-28-20, 12:48 AM
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Funny you mentioned Dave Tesch. I have a Tesch frame built up with all Dura Ace components from around 1986, It’s mostly in great shape except for quite a lot of deep rust where the rear brake cable housing exits the top tube, right where most of the sweat drips off my chin. Last frame I built I routed the cable through the tt, but used some full length stainless tubing to run the cable housing through. I’ll have to ask my daughter if there is any rust appearing.
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Old 11-28-20, 12:57 AM
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Andy, I’m now thinking of just eliminating the chainstay bridge. Reading old posts, it seems that their value is debatable. Only an inch forward is a cast-in bridge which is part of the bottom bracket. By the way, what is PC?
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Old 11-28-20, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by lbgary View Post
OP here, problem solved. Silver brazed the dt/ht, came out pretty good, but about one degree off the desired angle. I was coldsetting, with pipes inserted in both tubes. After maybe five attempts with little change, I, naturally, pulled harder. The moment the dt kinked it sounded like a gunshot. I think this project has reached itís conclusion. Of the problems I was trying to fix on my current bike, I think they can be solved without building a whole new frame. One is that the chainstay bridge, which is just a piece of tubing, is too far back, which means I have to deflate the tire to remove or install it. The other is rust, which powdercoating didnít prevent. Iím thinking of stripping the finish off in the bb area and replacing the chainstay bridge with one of the cast ones with tire clearance, if I can find a source. Then send the whole frame to the powdercoaters for sandblasting and recoating. Iíve heard that some colors require two coats, therefore more rust protection. Sound reasonable?
Look at the positives. The brazing went well, and now you also have a useful spare bent tube for practice and (more) experiments. Melt or grind the HT off again and get a new DT. One tube is not expensive. You probably already ordered the other tubes so no good leaving them in the corner of your garage from where they can look at you disparagingly whenever you walk past! Far better to be riding around the country on them feeling stoked.

As the great Brodie said in one of his videos he once met a guy who never made any mistakes. He never did anything.
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Old 11-28-20, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by lbgary View Post
Andy, Iím now thinking of just eliminating the chainstay bridge. Reading old posts, it seems that their value is debatable. Only an inch forward is a cast-in bridge which is part of the bottom bracket.
If the BB shell has a cast-in bridge, you don't need anything else.

By the way, what is PC?
ďPowder coat.Ē
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Old 11-28-20, 10:00 AM
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Agreed that the CS bridge is not really needed (assuming no fenders). And now with disk brakes the SS one isn't really needed. Still I like their look and they do hold my brakes and sometimes fender. Andy
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Old 11-28-20, 10:02 AM
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I d actually wanted to propose to look for some positive consequences
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Old 11-28-20, 12:37 PM
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Here is one of the issues I have with my old frame. Rust, plus the chainstay bridge I will eliminate.

Here is the other problem, though itís never really bothered me. On assembly, I found that the rack was too low and interfered with the brake arm, so I cut a new piece of tubing with the bend in it and had the rack re-powdercoated. Maybe Iíll raise the rack, maybe not.
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Old 11-29-20, 04:23 PM
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I don't think the rack is too low but that the stay mounts are poorly located WRT the brake. I see this all the time with production bikes (along with other common "braze on" placements that might work on the 58cm sized frame but not the 50cm one).

To the rust- is this a PC or a wet job? Rust like this, focused on the edges and corners of the surface of the frame, usually speaks to the exposure amount, the pre paint prep and the paint's chemistry and lay down. Andy
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Old 11-29-20, 05:53 PM
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That's a nice looking rack
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Old 11-29-20, 07:48 PM
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I had rust on one of my early frames just like the photo because I didn't soak all the flux off. In fact, I didn't soak the frame at all, just removed the flux on the outside using mechanical means. Flux is acid and needs to be removed.
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Old 11-29-20, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
I don't think the rack is too low but that the stay mounts are poorly located WRT the brake. I see this all the time with production bikes (along with other common "braze on" placements that might work on the 58cm sized frame but not the 50cm one).

To the rust- is this a PC or a wet job? Rust like this, focused on the edges and corners of the surface of the frame, usually speaks to the exposure amount, the pre paint prep and the paint's chemistry and lay down. Andy
Itís powdercoat Andy
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Old 11-29-20, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nessism View Post
I had rust on one of my early frames just like the photo because I didn't soak all the flux off. In fact, I didn't soak the frame at all, just removed the flux on the outside using mechanical means. Flux is acid and needs to be removed.
I thought the same, though I did soak it quite a while after brazing. It seemed to me that the rust first appeared at the sharp outside corners of the lugs, so I thought it was due to too-thin powdercoating.
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Old 11-30-20, 08:55 AM
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PC is essentially a plastic that has been melted over the frame. It has less attraction/bonding with the frame then a proper primer does. It doesn't like going around sharp edges. It is relatively porous to water (compared to wet paint). And it's an application that is built around it's low cost which, IMO, welcomes taking short cuts in the prep before powdering the frame. So no rust inhibiting (phosphate) treatment is not uncommon. I've even been asked if the job needed sandblasting first!

So when I see PC jobs with rust issues I am not surprised. Andy
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Old 11-30-20, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
PC is essentially a plastic that has been melted over the frame. It has less attraction/bonding with the frame then a proper primer does. It doesn't like going around sharp edges. It is relatively porous to water (compared to wet paint). And it's an application that is built around it's low cost which, IMO, welcomes taking short cuts in the prep before powdering the frame. So no rust inhibiting (phosphate) treatment is not uncommon. I've even been asked if the job needed sandblasting first!

So when I see PC jobs with rust issues I am not surprised. Andy
That explains a lot Andy, thanks. Now that Iíve stripped it down to frame only, I see places where there are small wrinkles in the finish as if the film of PC has separated from the steel, appearing as wrinkles. Probably not the best choice to get it powdercoated again, but I would only be inclined to find a painter and pay the cost of a quality job if it were a new frame with nice crisp edges. Maybe I will find a new source for head lugs, head tubes and downtube and try again later.
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