Electronic Shifting - What's the Point?
10-28-20, 12:31 PM
#251
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Have never experienced it. And I mostly use Teflon coated cables from aliexpress... So probably not the highest quality.
In any case, no cable is going to keep stretching forever.
My old mountain bike didn't need an adjust in the last 5 years. My current one hasn't been adjusted since May, when I bought it. My road bike has been 2 years without adjusting anything.
My urban bike shifts like crap though. I'll admit that. Cables are 20 years old. Never been changed, almost never adjusted.
It's possible that lots of people are unable to set up a derailleur properly. And in my experience, that includes lots of mechanics from bike shops. That's why I learned to do it myself.
In any case, no cable is going to keep stretching forever.
My old mountain bike didn't need an adjust in the last 5 years. My current one hasn't been adjusted since May, when I bought it. My road bike has been 2 years without adjusting anything.
My urban bike shifts like crap though. I'll admit that. Cables are 20 years old. Never been changed, almost never adjusted.
It's possible that lots of people are unable to set up a derailleur properly. And in my experience, that includes lots of mechanics from bike shops. That's why I learned to do it myself.
10-28-20, 12:37 PM
#252
Banned.
I didn't think there was a major need for electronic when I got my Wilier with Sram Red eTap - it was nice, sure, but I never really thought it an essential upgrade and accepted it as being a part of the bike I wanted but would have happily accepted mechanical on the same deal.
Then I bought my Madone with Ultegra mechanical and now I'm looking forward to upgrading to the next Dura Ace Di2 when it is eventually released. The reason is that while for general riding I'm still perfectly happy with mechanical, I absolutely prefer electronic shifting for racing.
When racing I like sprint buttons on the drops, I like that a touch on the levers shifts the gear and holding it shifts several gears. It is just better/faster when I want to shift not having to make the larger hand movement mech demands vs touch. I couldn't give a stuff about 'purist' concerns when I am racing - just as I went from 22 years driving manual cars to PDK (and equivalent) and not looking back; I like the faster gear change and I'm not interested in how fast I can do it manually vs electronic when it can never be matched. I will always opt for the faster version.
Then I bought my Madone with Ultegra mechanical and now I'm looking forward to upgrading to the next Dura Ace Di2 when it is eventually released. The reason is that while for general riding I'm still perfectly happy with mechanical, I absolutely prefer electronic shifting for racing.
When racing I like sprint buttons on the drops, I like that a touch on the levers shifts the gear and holding it shifts several gears. It is just better/faster when I want to shift not having to make the larger hand movement mech demands vs touch. I couldn't give a stuff about 'purist' concerns when I am racing - just as I went from 22 years driving manual cars to PDK (and equivalent) and not looking back; I like the faster gear change and I'm not interested in how fast I can do it manually vs electronic when it can never be matched. I will always opt for the faster version.
10-28-20, 12:53 PM
#253
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I hate to admit it, but this is spot on. Everyone runs PDK now, but the advantage is partially the fact that the gears are constantly engaged (IE shift much, much faster than any human) but also....and even more because the car does not fall out of boost. Without turbos, are the electronic (bike) shifters really that much faster?
Someone with longer fingers, larger hands may not find that to be as much of an advantage as I do, naturally, so it depends upon the person but certainly in my case, electronic shifting is just better when I'm wanting a faster change.
Every time I ride my Wilier I find myself preferring the electronic shifting but this is mostly when I'm in the drops. On the tops, hoods, it isn't as great a difference to me but still nice.
10-28-20, 12:56 PM
#254
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But like you said, to each his own. I am a Dinosauer. At 58 (started riding at 5) the bike world is very, very different from what it used to be. 40 years ago most bike discussions were about the engine. You would spend an hour talking about how to get more from your engine (IE your body) and maybe 5 minutes arguing about which was better, Shimano or Campy. Today it is the reverse. Today, show up for a group ride and half the people are fat and they are riding an $8k bike. And good lord...these fatties are wet nursed along, because the shop ruiing the group ride knows who butters their bread. I can't recall one single fat cyclist from back in the day. You got dropped, you were on your own. All the bikers were hard as hell.
Oh, and if you're going to complain about the fatties, talk to your peers and your parent's generation about all of the pre-package bull**** "food" that they birthed in to the world.
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10-28-20, 12:57 PM
#255
Banned.
For me, they are, but not when I'm training generally, of course, but the scenario that I prefer them most is this: I am in the drops, I am out of the saddle, sprint is winding up, I want to change gears and possibly more than once...my fingers have to make a significant albeit do-able stretch to do that or I have to move my hands to the hoods whereas if I only have to press a button or touch a lever...quicker, easier.
Someone with longer fingers, larger hands may not find that to be as much of an advantage as I do, naturally, so it depends upon the person but certainly in my case, electronic shifting is just better when I'm wanting a faster change.
Every time I ride my Wilier I find myself preferring the electronic shifting but this is mostly when I'm in the drops. On the tops, hoods, it isn't as great a difference to me but still nice.
Someone with longer fingers, larger hands may not find that to be as much of an advantage as I do, naturally, so it depends upon the person but certainly in my case, electronic shifting is just better when I'm wanting a faster change.
Every time I ride my Wilier I find myself preferring the electronic shifting but this is mostly when I'm in the drops. On the tops, hoods, it isn't as great a difference to me but still nice.
This makes lots of sense....maybe I will put an e shifting bike on my bucket list.
10-28-20, 01:08 PM
#256
Banned.
Never witnessed a power meter/training convo, eh? Funny. Also, you evidently go to the wrong group rides.
Oh, and if you're going to complain about the fatties, talk to your peers and your parent's generation about all of the pre-package bull**** "food" that they birthed in to the world.
Oh, and if you're going to complain about the fatties, talk to your peers and your parent's generation about all of the pre-package bull**** "food" that they birthed in to the world.
My exposure to road biking was long, long ago. I came from a BMX background and was a successful messenger. I got a job at a bike shop, and the head mechanic was an alternate on the Olympic team. Those were the guys I rode with, and they were animals. I was a very successful messenger, the fastest in the city (San Francisco). I got into road biking (after more than 20 years of riding) because I wanted to improve my overall skill set. When I started riding with the road crew (mostly cat 1-3 guys) I was the slowest. The group rides I have been on....sorry, these guys/gals wouldn't last 2 seconds.
10-28-20, 03:49 PM
#257
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Never witnessed a power meter/training convo, eh? Funny. Also, you evidently go to the wrong group rides.
Oh, and if you're going to complain about the fatties, talk to your peers and your parent's generation about all of the pre-package bull**** "food" that they birthed in to the world.
Oh, and if you're going to complain about the fatties, talk to your peers and your parent's generation about all of the pre-package bull**** "food" that they birthed in to the world.
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10-28-20, 03:52 PM
#258
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10-28-20, 04:21 PM
#259
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WARNING, INCOMING RANT!
But like you said, to each his own. I am a Dinosauer. At 58 (started riding at 5) the bike world is very, very different from what it used to be. 40 years ago most bike discussions were about the engine. You would spend an hour talking about how to get more from your engine (IE your body) and maybe 5 minutes arguing about which was better, Shimano or Campy. Today it is the reverse. Today, show up for a group ride and half the people are fat and they are riding an $8k bike. And good lord...these fatties are wet nursed along, because the shop ruiing the group ride knows who butters their bread. I can't recall one single fat cyclist from back in the day. You got dropped, you were on your own. All the bikers were hard as hell.
End rant
.
But like you said, to each his own. I am a Dinosauer. At 58 (started riding at 5) the bike world is very, very different from what it used to be. 40 years ago most bike discussions were about the engine. You would spend an hour talking about how to get more from your engine (IE your body) and maybe 5 minutes arguing about which was better, Shimano or Campy. Today it is the reverse. Today, show up for a group ride and half the people are fat and they are riding an $8k bike. And good lord...these fatties are wet nursed along, because the shop ruiing the group ride knows who butters their bread. I can't recall one single fat cyclist from back in the day. You got dropped, you were on your own. All the bikers were hard as hell.
End rant
.
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10-28-20, 04:32 PM
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10-28-20, 05:19 PM
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10-28-20, 06:03 PM
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man I loved the cherry version of these as a kid. Mom would never let me have one, so when I started making money mowing lawns...boom, cherry pie time.
10-28-20, 06:09 PM
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10-28-20, 06:26 PM
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It's funny that @RadDog draws the line at electric shifting on a bicycle, yet drives a pretty high tech car.
10-28-20, 06:27 PM
#266
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1 - on the hoods
2 - slightly behind "on the hoods" close to where the bars bend forward
3 - on the horns, aka up on the vertical portion of the levers
4 - deep in the crooks, aka the forward-most position you can be in when in the drops before the levers get in the way
5 - in the drops just where the bar starts to curve towards the horizontal
6 - at the end of the drops, right by the bar-end plugs
7 - on the tops just on either side the stem
From any of those positions with the exception of #7 , with eTap it is very easy to instantiate a shift, up, down, cassette or chainrings.
Compare that to Campy: only 1, 4, and 5 are within reach of the shift mechanisms. [edit: And arguably the thumb lever isn't really accessible from position #5 unless you have enormous hands.]
Shimano fares just slightly better, in that in addition to 1, 4, and 5 you can also upshift in back or downshift in front -- but not vice-versa -- with your pinky from position #3
Last edited by Bob Ross; 10-28-20 at 07:51 PM.
10-28-20, 10:45 PM
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Don’t F-1 race cars use electronic shifting? I have heard that to get hired to drive in F-1 you will need to be one of the best drivers in the world. This connection that electronic equals lack of skill doesn’t seem to hold water.
10-29-20, 03:03 AM
#270
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Why is everybody comparing dual clutch transmissions to electronic shifting in bicycles?
Dual clutch has a couple of advantages:
1. It shifts faster than you can with a manual, and doesn't loose power when doing so, as there isn't a moment with no gear engaged.
2. It avoids the driver having to shift constantly and use a clutch, which many people like (others don't).
Meanwhile, with electronic shifting on bikes:
1. The gears shift exactly the same way as with a mechanical derailleur, with the derailleur derailing the chain from one sprocket to another.
2. You still have to press buttons/levers to do that.
The only advantage I can find to electronic shifter is that it allows you to shift from multiple places (aero bars, drops, etc...) and that, if you're the type of person who can't use both hands at the same time, it has Synchro-Shift (which IMHO is useless, as I don't always want to compensate or do the same amount of compensation).
Finally, getting back to the dual clutch: I have a Skoda with a DSG at home and I still don't trust it reliability-wise. It's an exercise in unnecessary complexity. I'm quite sure my Toyota HSD, which is the opposite (an exercise in simplicity) is going to be way more reliable long-term and is also more comfortable for real-life™ use, with traffic lights and roundabouts, instead of driving like you stole the car on a twisty road, which is where the DSG excels.
Electronic shift on bikes, meanwhile, is an excercise in complexity that doesn't excel anywhere.
Dual clutch has a couple of advantages:
1. It shifts faster than you can with a manual, and doesn't loose power when doing so, as there isn't a moment with no gear engaged.
2. It avoids the driver having to shift constantly and use a clutch, which many people like (others don't).
Meanwhile, with electronic shifting on bikes:
1. The gears shift exactly the same way as with a mechanical derailleur, with the derailleur derailing the chain from one sprocket to another.
2. You still have to press buttons/levers to do that.
The only advantage I can find to electronic shifter is that it allows you to shift from multiple places (aero bars, drops, etc...) and that, if you're the type of person who can't use both hands at the same time, it has Synchro-Shift (which IMHO is useless, as I don't always want to compensate or do the same amount of compensation).
Finally, getting back to the dual clutch: I have a Skoda with a DSG at home and I still don't trust it reliability-wise. It's an exercise in unnecessary complexity. I'm quite sure my Toyota HSD, which is the opposite (an exercise in simplicity) is going to be way more reliable long-term and is also more comfortable for real-life™ use, with traffic lights and roundabouts, instead of driving like you stole the car on a twisty road, which is where the DSG excels.
Electronic shift on bikes, meanwhile, is an excercise in complexity that doesn't excel anywhere.
Last edited by Amt0571; 10-29-20 at 03:07 AM.
10-29-20, 04:28 AM
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10-29-20, 06:21 AM
#272
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Why is everybody comparing dual clutch transmissions to electronic shifting in bicycles?
Dual clutch has a couple of advantages:
1. It shifts faster than you can with a manual, and doesn't loose power when doing so, as there isn't a moment with no gear engaged.
2. It avoids the driver having to shift constantly and use a clutch, which many people like (others don't).
Meanwhile, with electronic shifting on bikes:
1. The gears shift exactly the same way as with a mechanical derailleur, with the derailleur derailing the chain from one sprocket to another.
2. You still have to press buttons/levers to do that.
The only advantage I can find to electronic shifter is that it allows you to shift from multiple places (aero bars, drops, etc...) and that, if you're the type of person who can't use both hands at the same time, it has Synchro-Shift (which IMHO is useless, as I don't always want to compensate or do the same amount of compensation).
Finally, getting back to the dual clutch: I have a Skoda with a DSG at home and I still don't trust it reliability-wise. It's an exercise in unnecessary complexity. I'm quite sure my Toyota HSD, which is the opposite (an exercise in simplicity) is going to be way more reliable long-term and is also more comfortable for real-life™ use, with traffic lights and roundabouts, instead of driving like you stole the car on a twisty road, which is where the DSG excels.
Electronic shift on bikes, meanwhile, is an excercise in complexity that doesn't excel anywhere.
Dual clutch has a couple of advantages:
1. It shifts faster than you can with a manual, and doesn't loose power when doing so, as there isn't a moment with no gear engaged.
2. It avoids the driver having to shift constantly and use a clutch, which many people like (others don't).
Meanwhile, with electronic shifting on bikes:
1. The gears shift exactly the same way as with a mechanical derailleur, with the derailleur derailing the chain from one sprocket to another.
2. You still have to press buttons/levers to do that.
The only advantage I can find to electronic shifter is that it allows you to shift from multiple places (aero bars, drops, etc...) and that, if you're the type of person who can't use both hands at the same time, it has Synchro-Shift (which IMHO is useless, as I don't always want to compensate or do the same amount of compensation).
Finally, getting back to the dual clutch: I have a Skoda with a DSG at home and I still don't trust it reliability-wise. It's an exercise in unnecessary complexity. I'm quite sure my Toyota HSD, which is the opposite (an exercise in simplicity) is going to be way more reliable long-term and is also more comfortable for real-life™ use, with traffic lights and roundabouts, instead of driving like you stole the car on a twisty road, which is where the DSG excels.
Electronic shift on bikes, meanwhile, is an excercise in complexity that doesn't excel anywhere.
Given that you don't really understand it, it seems odd that you are so invested in getting others to eschew it, too.
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10-29-20, 06:26 AM
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10-29-20, 10:09 AM
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Why is everybody comparing dual clutch transmissions to electronic shifting in bicycles?
Dual clutch has a couple of advantages:
1. It shifts faster than you can with a manual, and doesn't loose power when doing so, as there isn't a moment with no gear engaged.
2. It avoids the driver having to shift constantly and use a clutch, which many people like (others don't).
Meanwhile, with electronic shifting on bikes:
1. The gears shift exactly the same way as with a mechanical derailleur, with the derailleur derailing the chain from one sprocket to another.
2. You still have to press buttons/levers to do that.
The only advantage I can find to electronic shifter is that it allows you to shift from multiple places (aero bars, drops, etc...) and that, if you're the type of person who can't use both hands at the same time, it has Synchro-Shift (which IMHO is useless, as I don't always want to compensate or do the same amount of compensation).
Finally, getting back to the dual clutch: I have a Skoda with a DSG at home and I still don't trust it reliability-wise. It's an exercise in unnecessary complexity. I'm quite sure my Toyota HSD, which is the opposite (an exercise in simplicity) is going to be way more reliable long-term and is also more comfortable for real-life™ use, with traffic lights and roundabouts, instead of driving like you stole the car on a twisty road, which is where the DSG excels.
Electronic shift on bikes, meanwhile, is an excercise in complexity that doesn't excel anywhere.
Dual clutch has a couple of advantages:
1. It shifts faster than you can with a manual, and doesn't loose power when doing so, as there isn't a moment with no gear engaged.
2. It avoids the driver having to shift constantly and use a clutch, which many people like (others don't).
Meanwhile, with electronic shifting on bikes:
1. The gears shift exactly the same way as with a mechanical derailleur, with the derailleur derailing the chain from one sprocket to another.
2. You still have to press buttons/levers to do that.
The only advantage I can find to electronic shifter is that it allows you to shift from multiple places (aero bars, drops, etc...) and that, if you're the type of person who can't use both hands at the same time, it has Synchro-Shift (which IMHO is useless, as I don't always want to compensate or do the same amount of compensation).
Finally, getting back to the dual clutch: I have a Skoda with a DSG at home and I still don't trust it reliability-wise. It's an exercise in unnecessary complexity. I'm quite sure my Toyota HSD, which is the opposite (an exercise in simplicity) is going to be way more reliable long-term and is also more comfortable for real-life™ use, with traffic lights and roundabouts, instead of driving like you stole the car on a twisty road, which is where the DSG excels.
Electronic shift on bikes, meanwhile, is an excercise in complexity that doesn't excel anywhere.
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10-29-20, 12:15 PM
#275
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