djb

and I would add that finding a bar height and reach position that equals out all these variables to a good amount for each of them is the thing that makes a bike comfortable for a long time.
.....now what comes into play is how fit you are, I always notice that at the beginning of the riding season I end up with more weight on my hands, cuz my legs arent strong yet, but at the end of the season, I can consistently put out more power with my legs, which takes weight off my arse and hands, plus your core gets stronger too, but it seems to me its the increased leg strength that plays more a part here.

so how strong a rider you are plays a big part. On my drop bar bike, if I ride just too slow, hardly putting out any power, to accompany a slower rider for example, I feel more weight on my hands and butt. We all have an ideal speed where we are most efficient, and also most comfortable--equalling out all the three contact points. Drop bars for me are still more comfortable for all day riding cuz I shift my hands around all the time, so changing hand and wrist, neck and even back muscles slightly means less issues with either.
And of course, the more you ride, the tougher you get, but you still have to have a bike setup that is in the ballpark and works for your fitness, age, flexibility etc etc etc.

for me though, it still comes down to finding the right magic area of equalizing arse, hand and feet pressure, and finding the setup that allows you to be the most efficient for all day power output that is easiest on all three points.

bottom line, you have to be attentive to what your body is telling you and change things accordingly that works for you personally, not what people on the internet tell you. Suggestions from experienced riders are great, but it depends on your fitness etc etc etc, and if you ride regularly, your fitness and whatnot will change slowly and you may want to change things over time.

TomPalmer

Hi all,
I just did a 2 day camping trip on an 86 Schwinn Passage with Soma Oxford bars (like Nitto albatross) and we covered 110 miles and 4200 feet of climbing and wind off Lake Michigan. I have a sprung Brooks saddle and low riders. Most weight on front. Comfort was tremendous, hills a challenge, bend down into the wind. Only issues were sore quads and some heartburn from way too much camp coffee. I also think the "many hand positions" of a drop bar are unnecessary if you have one or two than are really comfortable. With the Oxford I have 2 positions, behind the brake lever mount for most riding and in front of brakes for climbing and wind. It gives me 2 different back angles and works for me.
I do no thave a pic of me riding it, bu tI am pretty upright, not bolt upright as a dutch bike.
Try it and see for yourself.
good luck,
Tom Palmer
Twin Lake, MI

FrenchFit 

One of my bikes is set up to ride fully upright by using carbon bar ends as palm rests connected at the lower junction of trekking bars. (If you choose to drop your hands to the brake position on the bars your shoulders drop a couple of inches, if you move to the front of the bars, maybe 3, 4 inches.) Riding fully upright is a joy for sightseeing and weaving through traffic. Riding century distances the negatives of being fully upright continuously get fairly obvious, the pressures on the spine and tailbone cause pain, stiffness and are cumulative- meaning every day riding can be torture. My caution is be sure you have multiple positions that allow you to change your loading on your spine and get some stretch. If you watch the TdF riders they are on the tops, hoods, drops, leaning their forearms on the tops, standing position, running position, ... they are changing things up. Any bike that gives you one option for body position is going to be a problem for back to back all day rides. You don't want to end up chronic back and shoulder problems.

rawklobster

Noted! I don't think I'll be full sit up and beg, but upright enough that my torso can keep me upright without any pressure on the hands, aside from enough pressure to steer, of course. The Nitto Bosco bar I plan on getting has plenty of ergonomic places to put the hands. Hunched forward position if battling winds if I feel so inclined, and lots of other areas at various intervals. I think on my Pashley, I'm hunched a bit in the shoulders if I try for sit-up-and-beg, or very straight armed, but leaned slightly forward if I keep my back straight. I usually keep my back straight because I'm conscious of posture. I do ballet and that helps a lot!

Body position is important, but I think I can get the reasonably upright posture I want and still manage back to back riding. As evidenced in this post, many comments demonstrate that it is possible, and that's what I posted. Exactly the info I was looking for! As for changing position, when I sleep on a firm mattress, I toss and turn, because I'm not comfortable or because my body need circulation. My current mattress, I barely move, because it's so comfortable and my body is getting the circulation it needs. That's also why I nap on the hard carpeted floor. I know my body will wake up from discomfort after about 15 minutes, which is as long as I ever want to nap.

rawklobster

Thanks Tom! What are low riders? A google search only showed low rider bikes, which I don't think its what you were referring to. You mean low rider racks?

I'm used to sore quads with the recumbent, and never complained. I don't mind sore quads, because it's only painful when I massage them. I do mind sore sitting bones or perineum, though.

Would love to see the pic! I know what bolt-upright is, but perhaps what I'm striving for is "upright enough". Definitely more upright than most of the people I saw on the Pacific Coast. I don't think bolt-upright sit-up-and-beg will be sustainable nor desirable. But I am looking for what it looks like if you have no issues with hand pressure (and please comment on how much there is in your most upright position) sitting bone pain or perineum, which I think usually isn't a problem when upright, and reserved for more downward positions.

tarwheel 

I ride several tours every year, including some supported tours with many other riders. Many tourers have their bikes set up with higher handlebar positions. It should not be an issue at all if that's what you find most comfortable.

Low handlebars are mainly an advantage for improving aerodynamics and increasing speed and efficiency. If you are carrying a load and traveling at slow to moderate speeds, low handlebars probably provide little or no advantages -- unless you are simply more comfortable riding in a low position.

I have all of my bikes set up with their handlebars about the same height as the saddles. Before I did that, with handlebars 2-3" lower, I had all sorts of problems with neck pain and hand numbness. When I raised my handlebars, those problems went away almost immediately. I am also able to ride in my handlebar drops for extended periods very comfortably.

If you run your handlebars higher, you may want to consider a few issues:
- Raising your handlebars also shortens your reach, so you may need to get a longer stem (or not)
- You may need a wider or more supportive saddle, since more of your weight will be shifted to your rear
- You may need to adjust your saddle so that it is level or tilted slightly up in the front, so your sit bones are situated over the widest part of the saddle
- You will not be as aerodynamic with higher handlebars, so that might make you slower if average speeds are important to you
- You will probably find that you are able to use drop bars much more comfortably with higher handlebars

Rob_E

I think what's already been suggested, and what you've already talked about doing, is a good idea: take the upright bike out for a nice, long ride. Maybe do an overnight trip, to see how it works loaded up.

I always thought I'd like to be as upright as possible, but I ended up finding a happy medium between bolt upright and hunched over drop bars.

The problem is the longer I spend with all my weight on the saddle, the less comfortable it is. For shorter rides, I like an upright position. But sometimes even on a short ride there's wind and maybe rain that you don't want hitting you full in the face.

I don't have any photos of me on the bike, but here's my little Tote/Cycle, may it rest in peace.



It was very upright, and lots of fun to ride. Super stable, too. I don't think it was all about seat to handlebar height, either. The distance between from the seat to the bars is also a factor, and for bike stability, I think the seat in relation to the wheels is a factor. The Tote/Cycle seemed to put my weight close to the center of the bike, and I think that helped make the ride more solid without me making an effort to support some of my weight up front.

I loved riding it around town. My five mile commute was fine. Shortly before I found that bike, my wife had bought me a new hybrid and she used to get annoyed that my hybrid sat at home while the 30 year old Tote/Cycle got all the ride time. But I probably never road it more than 30 miles in a day. It got less comfortable the longer I rode it after 10 miles or so. It was great for bopping around down town where I was on and off the bike all the time, but it wasn't great for a long stretch of riding.

Then there's my Long Haul Trucker.



Bars are lower. definitely more stretched out. Not as low or as stretched out as drop bars, but it means I can move some of my weight forward. Much better for riding all day. LHT is still a really stable bike, but you can feel it when there's a lot of weight in the back and none in the front. It's not a good feeling. But with the right bar positioning, you can shift a little weight forward and all is well. I was pretty sure I wanted to be as upright as possible when I got the bike. I started out with the bars as high as possible, the flipped them to get them a little lower while improving the angle of the bars, and then began slowly moving them down. There were a couple of spacers above the stem when I finally disassembled that bike the other day. I never felt like I couldn't see the world around me, but I was definitely not upright, but nor was I laid down across the bike like I was in a race. It was surprising because I went in assuming that a bolt-upright position was exactly what I wanted.

Still, if I was not going to spend hours at a time without stopping, I could see a more upright bike being fun. So give it a try. Put in some real miles and see how it feels. And in the end, the best bike to ride on a tour is bike you enjoy being on. Good luck.

rawklobster

I guess I want a bike that is comfortable no matter how fit, or unfit I am. I take ballet, and consider myself pretty fit. I didn't train at all for my Pacific Coast trip, and manages Port Angeles to San Diego without injury. I wasn't even really working out. I'd say I'm a little overweight for my height, but I don't think anyone would say my weight is an issue. My blood work is great, and my doctor just tells me to keep doing what I'm doing.

As for my ideal speed, it's slow. Specially in cities. If I was to get a door prize riding around town, I wouldn't travel far, as I'm never going fast enough. I go faster when there aren't cars, but I'm cautious to a fault. I'd equate the way I ride my bike to that of an old man driving a car. Slow to start, and slow to stop, with some speed in between when I know it's easy going and aware of what's going on. I'm an anomaly, I'm sure. I'm young, strong, and flexible. And getting stronger and more flexible since taking up Ballet. But I still choose easy, comfy riding. Probably because I don't have very strong abs. I get the magic area you're talking about, but my magic area has more to do with setup (wide seat, springs, cushy tires) so I can have the comfortable riding position (fit) that I like. When you say "finding the setup that allows you to be the most efficient for all day power output that is easiest on all three points." I understand that those are your goals. But they are definitely not mine. I really couldn't care less about efficiency. Of course I want the most efficiency in an upright position, but I'm willing to sacrifice efficiency for comfort. If I'm using less of my gluteus muscles and not getting max output, that's fine by me.

As for shifting your hands around all the time, I think the set-up I plan is so comfortable on the hands I won't feel inclined to move them around. But I have heard from many people who ride more downward that having more positions is key. That said, the Nitto Bosco bars have *plenty* of hand positions. But I'd say 90+% of the time I'll have my hands on the handlebars by the brakes, and never feel like I need to vary the positions because my hands would otherwise get sore.

As for what my body tells me, it says it wants to be comfortable with no pain. No sitting bone pain, perineal pain or hand pain. To me, and aggressive riding style has speed/efficiency in mind, and requires an effort to *still* be comfortable while addressing those factors. Once you take efficiency and speed out of the equation, I think you can explore more comfortable positions, and hopefully sustainable. Others have managed it, and I expect I will too.

rawklobster

I will likely be getting a long stem because the Nitto Bosco handlebars I'm getting are quite long. I think the frame manufacturer will take those measurements into consideration.

As for saddle, I think I'm getting the Brooks B66, which is not as wide at the Brooks B33 on my Pashley, but still quite wide. I had read about the seat being level, and so I went from a slightly pointed up nose to straight, and immediately had to put pressure on my hands to keep from sliding forward. I've raised it back up, although not as much as it was, but may go back to the same tilt up as it was. I shouldn't have changed it since I wasn't having any problems. But sometimes you read stuff and thing it's the best.

As for average speeds, definitely not important to me.

I'v used drops before, and I suppose they would be fine if I raised them high enough, but to me, they just don't make sense. I like having my chest open when riding, and drop handlebars seem to promote less chest openness. I could test ride a Surly LHT again, and have them raise the handlebars above the seat, and perhaps the smaller frame to make the cockpit more compact. But when I see where the brakes are, I just don't get why they are so popular as handlebars. They definitely don't exist on most upright-style bikes, so I don't feel any motivation to consider them. My first bike was a Peugeot with drops, but I had my hands on the tops (with special brake levers do I could brake from there) and even on downhills, I'd have my hands on the tops and put my chest over my hands to go fast down the hills.

rawklobster

thanks for all of this... I do think I'll be more upright than drops, but not completely bolt upright. Just shallow enough so I'm not putting pressure on my hands. I don't think bolt upright is what I want, but definitely more upright than most people practice. But as I mentioned from the outset, I don't see a lot of pictures of bikes with people on them and how upright they are. And many who have already posted their upright positions here seem hunched over to me, but once I get my picture of me on my Pashley, I'll be able to compare.

The Nitto Boscos are quite long, and can be shortened if needed. If I find I want to lean more forward, I can try it out, and adjust it accordingly.

I do like to stop often, which is another reason I got to camp so long after my camp buddies. I love talking to people, checking out stores or sights. I would often stop just to look and observe where I was. I'm very much a stop and smell the roses tourer. And I love to stop and take pictures too. Speed and getting to the destination has never factored in as a high priority.

I'll report back after my 100km Pashley wine tour! If I make it that far. *smile*

djb

rawk, when I mention "efficiency", its from the angle that I am and always have been a slight fellow, not particularly strong, so I'm always feeling for whatever is the most efficient, bike position, gearing, how much crap I put on my bike, whatever. If it takes a bit less energy to bike a given distance over a day, then I'll take advantage of it, less whacked at the end of the day.

bottom line for you, find what is comfortable for you and your riding, and just get out there.
Getting your arse out on the bike is the main thing, and having fun. If you are comfortable and having fun, then you'll do more, the more you do, the fitter and stronger you'll become. Its a snowball effect.

have fun riding and finding a more comfortable setup for yourself.

rawklobster

Thanks DJB! Definitely snowball! And I'm not discounting people's need/want of efficiency. It's just not a variable I pay close attention to for my needs/wants.

Main reason for this post was to find out of there were others riding in the way I predict I would like to travel. I avoided the question altogether by getting a recumbent trike, and because I had a bad history of poorly fit bikes, and didn't see the Pashley as a contender, I didn't think touring on a regular bike was in the cards. But I think I can achieve the fun with an upright bike! Maybe I'll even start a revolution. *wink*

I now have the confidence to explore further, and invest in a bike designed for me and my needs, even if it brakes the mould. <- see what I did there?

TomPalmer

Hi Rawk,
Low riders are racks. Very nice as they put the weight low. The Passage has a pretty flexible frame so balancing the weight is important. We hit 42mph on one of the downhills and no shimmy.

No hand issues with bars this high. Hope this picture looks OK, I didn't have one of the bike itself.
Tom

rawklobster

Yeah.. I had as feeling. But its proximity to "Brooks Saddle" had me wondering. I didn't know about shimmy. Hopefully the long wheel base of my custom frame will help. I'm likely going to be fine with just two panniers and trunk in the back. I'll definitely look into low rider racks.

rawklobster

So I inquired, and one of the guys on the Pacific Coast said he did was not uncomfortable, but liked to sprint ride most of the time, with frequent breaks where the scenery seemed nicest. He also said he didn't think anyone rode any particular was due to discomfort. So there's the answer to that. I guess IO was just imposing my experience with my uncomfortable mountain bike as an explanation. *smile*

alaskadude

Im 57, in OK shape. But we get a little stiffer as we go along. I have raised bars on my 3 bikes and just got a higher steerer for my LHT. I feel much more relaxed sitting upright.

rawklobster

Great to hear! So do I!!! Although I still haven't tested this riding position for long distances. What is it like having more weight on your posterior? What kind of saddle and tires are you using?

boomhauer

I've gone round and round about how to sit perfectly upright but still be able to stand on the pedals and also rest on my elbows. I use treking bars on an adjustable stem that are a few inches higher than the seat. The elbow pads I've attached not only allow me to relax without any pressure on my hands but also are perfect elevated hand rests for the upright position I desire. The picture below is from this summers tour. The elbow rests are from aerobars and I've added leather to deal with the sweat
.
There is plenty of duct tape and a poor black spray can paint job to detour thieves on my Trek Hybrid.
The sprung Brooks saddle is very comfortable in upright position.
The same sun baked 25 year old panniers still work fine. No one would ever steal such a piece of junk bike. I leave it out in front of Walmarts unlocked every trip.

DropBarFan

Once was riding on the bike path out of DC & saw a couple of women riding (not touring) on big ole Dutch commuters. The women looked like they might be Dutch ex-pats that for some reason decided to ship their bikes over. It was a steep hill & the women were keeping up a good pace w/o seeming to strain themselves.

DanBell

Interesting. Thanks for checking into it.

mm718

I ride with drop bars because straight handlebars in the upright position destroyed my wrists and caused nerve damage that lasted a few years (this happened on just a couple of trips). It's not the "multiple hand positions" that saved my wrists, it's the position on the hoods.

I might have done fine with Ergon grips and tweaking my technique though. Many people have successfully toured with the set up you are suggesting. There's a guy touring the Americas right now who has done many long tours with straight bars.

edthesped

The joy of living minutes from the GAP is that I ride it as part of my commute and for fun a lot and see all kinds of people and bikes making the Pgh/DC trip with drop bar bikes making up maybe half of the bikes making the trip, granted it's not an expedition style tour.

I saw a gentleman and his all of 12 son getting ready to depart from under the Birmingham bridge on my way to work last week. He had a generic style mountain bike loaded with gear and the boy had a kids sized mountain bike also pretty well loaded. Mom was giving hugs by the car and they had the biggest smiles on their faces. I'm thinking they spent more time thinking about the adventure than pondering what type of bike they should ride, maybe a lesson I need to learn. Did they make it, were they as comfortable and efficient as they could have been? Who knows but I'd be willing to bet it was an experience they will both take to their graves.

rawklobster

I'm glad you found an upright position that works for you! Sounds great! +1 Sprung Saddle - Awesome!!! I'm definitely doing that!

I'm going to have to take care of my bike and not leave it alone in high risk areas. I'm not willing to make the bike look bad to deter thieves. It will be a problem, but I want the bike to look amazing. Also, thieves steal bikes they can unload quickly. I'm sure mine will be attractive for parts, but as a complete bike, it would be hard to sell. In any case, we will see. I will have a rear-wheel lock so nobody can take off with it if I just run in somewhere for some food. If I'm in a big city, I'll be forced to find a place to stay where the bike can be in the room with me.

rawklobster

I think the gearing on Dutch bikes is usually really good. My Pashley's lowest gear isn't too bad. I can sit and climb most hills, but sometimes I'm worried about my knees. But heir bikes may have been spread even wider, with a nice low gear inch. My low gear inch will be either 16.2 or 17.1. I haven't decided yet, but I think 16.2 sounds great. Saves the knees on seated loaded climbing, and it makes my 11th gear Rohloff speed 13.8 MPH @ 80RPM. That's the high end of my pace, I think, or maybe the sweet spot? My high gear inch is only 85, but frankly, I'll coast down hills out of the saddle. Makes me feel super tall on the Pashley, with a very "free" feeling. I'm not going to pedal down hills if I can help it.

rawklobster

I had many wrist issues with my straight bar on my Mountain bike, including numbness. No nerve damage, as I brought the bar forward. My upright setup won't be a straight bar. Although it does allow for more upright riding, I've never found them to be very ergonomic. I've seen many set-ups with straight bars, but it's not for me.