Anyone get the new RFLKT from Wahoo yet?
03-31-13, 05:19 PM
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The rub, Halfspeed, is that the market potential is not in existing powermeter/ANT+ users, but in the millions of cyclists waiting and yet to enter the market. They're not invested in a comm protocol one way or the other... unless you realize that 90% of them already have BT mobile phones or other devices.
The percentage of existing PM users who are unwilling to upgrade to a new PM and head unit ( and ergo, comm protocol) is vanishingly small compared to the latent potential of combined first time PM users and existing PM users who are willing to upgrade 'whole hog'.
Anyway, even though I don't find your static model compelling, it is all purely speculative, and time will tell. I, at least, don't have a dog in this fight.
The percentage of existing PM users who are unwilling to upgrade to a new PM and head unit ( and ergo, comm protocol) is vanishingly small compared to the latent potential of combined first time PM users and existing PM users who are willing to upgrade 'whole hog'.
Anyway, even though I don't find your static model compelling, it is all purely speculative, and time will tell. I, at least, don't have a dog in this fight.
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03-31-13, 05:38 PM
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That might make some sense if that potential market were anything but wild speculation. What's truly vanishingly small is the number of cyclists willing to do any of what's necessary to make power meters of any use. Sure, a $99 power meter might be purchased by some cyclists just to monitor the number next to their average speed, but we're a long, long way away from that happening. And there's still the small problem of cell phones not being particularly good head units.
Forgive me if I'm being dense here, but really, I'm not following you.
03-31-13, 05:41 PM
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The fact that every single power meter made (with the not particularly notable exception of the Look/Polar pedal) uses ANT+ means it isn't going anywhere. You're not going to see a mass defection of owners from their devices just so they can use a different protocol or hook up to their phone instead of their Garmin.
Here's a HR monitor that will retransmit ANT+ to BT.
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2012/09/4...oth-smart.html
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03-31-13, 05:44 PM
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03-31-13, 06:21 PM
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It costs $10k to slap the word 'Bluetooth' on your device, and more fees on top of that. Of course, I think you can avoid this by using chipsets which are themselves certified, but the same is true of ANT+ - no fee is required if you use one of their approved chips.
03-31-13, 07:04 PM
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Which brings us back to the topic of this thread, the RFLKT. Phones don't have to be head units, and we don't need $99 power meters for there to be cyclists in the future. I really don' understand why you think all that's important in determing future leading device comm protocols are the current PM users...it really doesn't seem to make sense. Do you really believe that anyone who wants a PM now already has an ANT+ device? Do you really believe that if there was a BT PM option, no one would select it because their phone is already compatible?
Forgive me if I'm being dense here, but really, I'm not following you.
Forgive me if I'm being dense here, but really, I'm not following you.
The only thing BT brings to the table is the fact that it's already in most cell phones. That means you can do some nice things with the UI, but there's a reason head units are comparatively simplistic. Now, if you don't want to use the phone as an actual head unit and just want to use it as a brain for something like the RFLKT, then why on earth would I buy the RFLKT instead of a dedicated head unit that doesn't require a cell phone?
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03-31-13, 07:32 PM
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You seemed to think that there's a vast untapped market for power meters that would drive BT adoption. I countered that no such market exists, even if prices fall dramatically.
The only thing BT brings to the table is the fact that it's already in most cell phones. That means you can do some nice things with the UI, but there's a reason head units are comparatively simplistic. Now, if you don't want to use the phone as an actual head unit and just want to use it as a brain for something like the RFLKT, then why on earth would I buy the RFLKT instead of a dedicated head unit that doesn't require a cell phone?
The only thing BT brings to the table is the fact that it's already in most cell phones. That means you can do some nice things with the UI, but there's a reason head units are comparatively simplistic. Now, if you don't want to use the phone as an actual head unit and just want to use it as a brain for something like the RFLKT, then why on earth would I buy the RFLKT instead of a dedicated head unit that doesn't require a cell phone?
03-31-13, 07:42 PM
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I don't know if you willfully misrepresented all that I've said and really can't figure out what advantages a mobile phone brings over a dedicated head unit, but congratulations on dragging the discussion down to the ridiculous. You'll have to enjoy your success without me, however.
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04-01-13, 11:38 AM
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I want my iPhone to be available after 6 hours of riding when a buddy calls to join him and my phone is only half charged. My garmin gets plugged in when I return home but my phone isn't always perfectly charged. I'll be sticking with my Garmin 500 for the foreseeable future.
04-01-13, 12:00 PM
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04-01-13, 03:41 PM
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I want my iPhone to be available after 6 hours of riding when a buddy calls to join him and my phone is only half charged. My garmin gets plugged in when I return home but my phone isn't always perfectly charged. I'll be sticking with my Garmin 500 for the foreseeable future.
04-01-13, 04:01 PM
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My Garmin is always either on a charger or on my bike while I'm riding. Neither my 305, 500, 705 nor 810 has gotten anywhere near low on a charge. My phone gets charged every night and it often sits on a charger at work or in my car and it still gets run near zero quite regularly. The battery life is short (even with the optional larger battery) and it gets a lot of general use. So I have to be careful to make sure that it doesn't run out. If I were to also use it as a ride data recorder, I have no doubt that it would either be run to zero on a ride leaving me with no data and no way to make an emergency call, or I'd need to shut it down and do without data. Apparently, there's supposed to be some great benefit to using a phone as a data recorder that would make those eventualities acceptable, but I'll be damned if can figure out what that benefit might be.
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04-01-13, 05:24 PM
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Anyway, yeah, I don't feel a smartphone is the best alternative for a cyclocomputer, especially if you're doing long rides in the middle of nowhere and are worried you might have an issue and not have a way to call for help. If you're not going for a long distance, maybe just a couple of hours or so, than a smartphone is probably a decent and cheaper alternative than buying a dedicated computer.
A lot of it will also depend on if you need to see your stats constantly while riding, or just on occasion. Running with the screen on at a high brightness will wipe out a battery pretty fast, I believe that's what RFLKT is trying to fix. For me, I've never had an issue with my battery running low as I don't leave the screen on. It would be interesting to see what the battery life is with just the needed app and bluetooth running in the background while the screen is off. I would imagine it would be at least 6-10 hours on a good battery, but it's hard to say.
04-01-13, 06:10 PM
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You're over charging your battery. Instead of leaving it sit on the charger or charging it on a regular schedule, try only charging it when needed and letting the battery drain to zero at least once a week. I can make it two days normal use on my iphone5 before it needs to be charged.
Anyway, yeah, I don't feel a smartphone is the best alternative for a cyclocomputer, especially if you're doing long rides in the middle of nowhere and are worried you might have an issue and not have a way to call for help. If you're not going for a long distance, maybe just a couple of hours or so, than a smartphone is probably a decent and cheaper alternative than buying a dedicated computer.
A lot of it will also depend on if you need to see your stats constantly while riding, or just on occasion. Running with the screen on at a high brightness will wipe out a battery pretty fast, I believe that's what RFLKT is trying to fix. For me, I've never had an issue with my battery running low as I don't leave the screen on. It would be interesting to see what the battery life is with just the needed app and bluetooth running in the background while the screen is off. I would imagine it would be at least 6-10 hours on a good battery, but it's hard to say.
Anyway, yeah, I don't feel a smartphone is the best alternative for a cyclocomputer, especially if you're doing long rides in the middle of nowhere and are worried you might have an issue and not have a way to call for help. If you're not going for a long distance, maybe just a couple of hours or so, than a smartphone is probably a decent and cheaper alternative than buying a dedicated computer.
A lot of it will also depend on if you need to see your stats constantly while riding, or just on occasion. Running with the screen on at a high brightness will wipe out a battery pretty fast, I believe that's what RFLKT is trying to fix. For me, I've never had an issue with my battery running low as I don't leave the screen on. It would be interesting to see what the battery life is with just the needed app and bluetooth running in the background while the screen is off. I would imagine it would be at least 6-10 hours on a good battery, but it's hard to say.
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04-01-13, 07:05 PM
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04-01-13, 07:48 PM
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Which would probably be perfect for half the riders out there, but I like to track where I go. I enjoy Strava and mapmyride is handy for plotting out a longer course. It's just right now, its far easier for me to justify spending $600+ on a phone that serves multiple purposes than spending that much on a garmin 810 that serves one purpose. Perhaps one day, that will all change. I ended up buying the wahoo blue sc sensor, which I thought worked with Garmin devices, so if I ever decide that I need a garmin, I'm good to go.
04-01-13, 07:50 PM
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You're over charging your battery. Instead of leaving it sit on the charger or charging it on a regular schedule, try only charging it when needed and letting the battery drain to zero at least once a week. I can make it two days normal use on my iphone5 before it needs to be charged.
Anyway, yeah, I don't feel a smartphone is the best alternative for a cyclocomputer, especially if you're doing long rides in the middle of nowhere and are worried you might have an issue and not have a way to call for help. If you're not going for a long distance, maybe just a couple of hours or so, than a smartphone is probably a decent and cheaper alternative than buying a dedicated computer.
A lot of it will also depend on if you need to see your stats constantly while riding, or just on occasion. Running with the screen on at a high brightness will wipe out a battery pretty fast, I believe that's what RFLKT is trying to fix. For me, I've never had an issue with my battery running low as I don't leave the screen on. It would be interesting to see what the battery life is with just the needed app and bluetooth running in the background while the screen is off. I would imagine it would be at least 6-10 hours on a good battery, but it's hard to say.
Anyway, yeah, I don't feel a smartphone is the best alternative for a cyclocomputer, especially if you're doing long rides in the middle of nowhere and are worried you might have an issue and not have a way to call for help. If you're not going for a long distance, maybe just a couple of hours or so, than a smartphone is probably a decent and cheaper alternative than buying a dedicated computer.
A lot of it will also depend on if you need to see your stats constantly while riding, or just on occasion. Running with the screen on at a high brightness will wipe out a battery pretty fast, I believe that's what RFLKT is trying to fix. For me, I've never had an issue with my battery running low as I don't leave the screen on. It would be interesting to see what the battery life is with just the needed app and bluetooth running in the background while the screen is off. I would imagine it would be at least 6-10 hours on a good battery, but it's hard to say.
(It's actually impossible to fully discharge most lithium batteries, since this kills the cells and renders them useless. They have protection circuitry to cut them off before this happens. Leaving them discharged for a long time will do it, though.)
The RFLKT doesn't seem to support map displays, so it's more comparable to the 500. The unit itself is cheaper, but the accessories cost more than Garmin's.
Last edited by Nerull; 04-01-13 at 08:01 PM.
04-11-13, 01:58 PM
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Some recent info - Cyclemeter and Runmeter now support RFLKT.
Also, I was interested in using RFLKT when running. I'd carry my iPhone in a pocket or armband pouch. How to carry the RFLKT? Turns out, Wahoo is developing a quarter-turn mount for it, and there are wrist bands that take a quarter-turn mount.
I think RFLKT could make an interesting watch. The concept of using a watch as display/interface for an iPhone is starting to catch on anyway - e.g. the Pebble and the rumored iWatch.
The battery life of the iPhone is an issue, but if you turn off WiFi, unused apps and display, an iPhone will run Cyclemeter for many hours. For the Seattle to Portland last year, I ran Cyclemeter on my iPhone 4S and was around 40% battery by the end of each 100 mile ride.
Note, I don't have any connection to Wahoo and don't actually own a RFLKT - have been waiting for Cyclemeter support and to read a few more reviews.
Also, I was interested in using RFLKT when running. I'd carry my iPhone in a pocket or armband pouch. How to carry the RFLKT? Turns out, Wahoo is developing a quarter-turn mount for it, and there are wrist bands that take a quarter-turn mount.
I think RFLKT could make an interesting watch. The concept of using a watch as display/interface for an iPhone is starting to catch on anyway - e.g. the Pebble and the rumored iWatch.
The battery life of the iPhone is an issue, but if you turn off WiFi, unused apps and display, an iPhone will run Cyclemeter for many hours. For the Seattle to Portland last year, I ran Cyclemeter on my iPhone 4S and was around 40% battery by the end of each 100 mile ride.
Note, I don't have any connection to Wahoo and don't actually own a RFLKT - have been waiting for Cyclemeter support and to read a few more reviews.
04-18-13, 08:32 AM
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I'm not too happy with my RFLKT
It just seems to be one thing after another. Yesterday, 5 minutes into my ride, the RFLKT locked up. Froze on one screen and could not be changed. Holding the two top buttons would not reset as it has in the past. Of course being out, meant I could do nothing. When I got home, I finally opened it and pulled the battery. The top right screw was stripped , it would just spin and not back out. By removing the other three, and holding the case open to put pressure on the screw, I got it removed, but still upset it was stripped.
No one wants this to work more than me, but I am spending more time messing with it than I do enjoying it.
At this point I'm going to return it while I can until they get the bugs worked out.
It just seems to be one thing after another. Yesterday, 5 minutes into my ride, the RFLKT locked up. Froze on one screen and could not be changed. Holding the two top buttons would not reset as it has in the past. Of course being out, meant I could do nothing. When I got home, I finally opened it and pulled the battery. The top right screw was stripped , it would just spin and not back out. By removing the other three, and holding the case open to put pressure on the screw, I got it removed, but still upset it was stripped.
No one wants this to work more than me, but I am spending more time messing with it than I do enjoying it.
At this point I'm going to return it while I can until they get the bugs worked out.
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04-18-13, 08:49 AM
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Lithium batteries don't suffer from memory effect, fully discharging them before charging doesn't help. In fact, they live longer if you leave them at about medium-charge all the time.
(It's actually impossible to fully discharge most lithium batteries, since this kills the cells and renders them useless. They have protection circuitry to cut them off before this happens. Leaving them discharged for a long time will do it, though.)
The RFLKT doesn't seem to support map displays, so it's more comparable to the 500. The unit itself is cheaper, but the accessories cost more than Garmin's.
(It's actually impossible to fully discharge most lithium batteries, since this kills the cells and renders them useless. They have protection circuitry to cut them off before this happens. Leaving them discharged for a long time will do it, though.)
The RFLKT doesn't seem to support map displays, so it's more comparable to the 500. The unit itself is cheaper, but the accessories cost more than Garmin's.
05-21-13, 04:37 PM
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Just wanted to chime in about the Pebble watch. It displays speed, mileage, time, lets you change your songs, etc. Just no cadence. But for $150 plus other features (tells you about emails/messages/calls/it is waterproof/running apps/etc) it seems pretty sweet!
05-21-13, 07:56 PM
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I replaced my RFLKT, and the new one has been working flawlessly. Just FYI.
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