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Vintage Follis resto project

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Vintage Follis resto project

Old 01-11-20, 03:37 PM
  #101  
bulgie 
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Originally Posted by orcas island
Yes, it’s hard to imagine too many of these having been imported for sale in the States in the early-mid 1950’s
A guy on ClassicRendezvous just found the men's mate to yours in a thrift shop for $17.

My '50s Follis is a later year than either of these, and a more 'luxe' model, with internal routing for the rear brake, and fillet-brazing over the lugs to make the transitions swoopier, a time-consuming step reserved for very fancy bikes. Since I got that bike 20 or 30 years ago, I have been paying attention to '50s Follises, and I do see them in the States now and then. Enough that I think they were imported at wholesale, not just individuals buying a bike in France and shipping it back. Just a guess though.

Oh yeah mine has a bike shop sticker from Ted Ernst's old shop. I asked him about it and he said they didn't sell them new, just applied the sticker when they serviced it. He said it was most likely sold by Hans Ohrt, the famous Beverly Hills bike shop. Ohrt was one of the few shops bringing in higher-end bikes from Europe in those days.

Mark B
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Old 01-11-20, 04:03 PM
  #102  
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Mark- ok, that is good information! Thanks for the photo of the Classic Rendevous bike. That one looks to be in much better shape than mine is. And I paid nearly twice as much as he did. I call foul!!
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Old 01-12-20, 02:26 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by orcas island
I’ll try to tighten the cotters a bit to see if they draw in further...
Never tighten them in. That's not what the nut is there for. Always press them in.

Sorry if I'm sharing knowledge you already have, and note I'm sure everyone has their favorite way to install, but this is my typical install, where I try to end with an end result of the cotter resting at ~ 3mm-4mm exposed on the unthreaded "butt" end:

I try to start with finding a cotter that's the same diameter and length as what I pulled out. You want to caliper the fattest point at the butt-end, then caliper it longways - length is less critical than girth. There are a few different cuts of cotter as well, you'll see examples here. You really want to look at how the old cotter was faced/filed as a often-correct idea of what you should replace with, since most people rarely ever seemed to service, and you may have had the originals in there. You can easily caliper the start and end of the taper to dial in exactly without even pressing the first one in, but be advised this can also lead to an accidental over-file of which is impossible to recover from.

If I don't know the correct cut, I'll test fit, press it in with my cotter press, then pop it back out and check to see where it's catching (looking for the line across it to know where it got wedged) to understand where and how much I need to file. I then face/file the slant down a bit with the cotter lightly installed into my bench vise, press back in, then rinse/repeat until the non-threaded butt-end of the cotter is no less/more than 3mm/5mm exposed when fully pressed into the crank. Once fully pressed at that range, tighten down the nut.

Granted, I'm not going to lie and say I know everything about cotters, or say one must follow my typical method, and I'm sure someone will have beef with my method or call something out, that's totally OK with me. But this is what I've done with every bike that I've ever ridden and many that came through the co-op. There are undoubtedly a hundred cheater shortcuts you can use to figure things out, like inserting the cotter, giving it a couple of good whacks with a BFH on the butt-end in order to mark it and know where to file. You can just press it in with a proper bypass-type press, then tighten the nut and be done with it totally!

After you do a few dozen, you get a feel for it and can usually knock this whole process out 3-4 minutes per side if using new cotters AND a proper bypass-style press like a VAR-07 which is properly adjusted. But what you really should avoid is simply tightening down the nut and considering it a done job. Chances are, that thing is coming loose after it's been torqued on hard a few dozen times.

BTW - I can't tell fully what you've got in there for cotters, but they look almost like they're 9.5 mm maybe? Or maybe they're 9mm but just a very shallow cut/face! The ones I sent you are the cheaper 9mm import ones Sunlite makes (the grade "D" at the BikeSmith link above, although I'd rate them more at a "C") and will probably also require a little facing before install. I rarely need to work the sides like some of the cheap-cheap Chinese made garbage which are "D" or "F" grade, there are plenty of that lower quality stuff out there on eBay.

Last edited by francophile; 01-12-20 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 03-19-20, 04:53 PM
  #104  
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Home made deep trough for soaking the incredibly rusty original wheels. Plywood scraps lined with a heavy duty plastic bag and filled with a gallon of Evaporust. I think that three rotations of each wheel ought to cover it.

Coronavirus “shelter in place” boredom project!

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Old 09-23-20, 08:58 PM
  #105  
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A couple months ago @orcas island, who lives a few miles form me, offered this bike to me... free!
How could I resist? It was only the second time I have broken my rule about not acquiring bikes that don't fit me.
I thought I would do a little more clean up on it, learn a little bit about early Simplex derailleurs, and pass it on. Somewhere in the process of removing all the components I realized that I was emotionally much deeper into this project than I had anticipated.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. First let's tie up some loose ends. First a photo of the rear Exceltoo hub:




The rims are indeed 700c. I found the makers name very lightly engraved next to the valve hole. It is in an elegant script but I can't entirely discern it, maybe "Cervis" or Cervin." I can't get VeloBase to cooperate right now but I'm quite sure one of you can tell me what it is. The valve hole accomodates a schrader valve but I think that may be an after market alteration since the holes are a little ragged, the rim is lightly dimpled where the holes were drilled, and I find no chrome on the drilled surfaces.




Freewheel is Duban "Supremo."




The chain is Brampton... made in France!




Headset is "Lightrace."




I guess that last photo let the cat out of the bag.




I got a little over exuberant with the clearcoat and will have to let it cure for a few days before I can sand it. Torn between preserving the patina and getting rid of the battered brown finish I made sure that those on either side of the preserve/refinish debate will have a bone to pick with me. More photos and explanation once it's presentable.

In the meantime I could use a French bottom bracket cup to make into a thread chaser if any of you happen to have an orphan. The outside few threads on the fixed cup side are quite loose and ragged. I would like to rehabilitate them as best I can.

Brent
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Old 09-23-20, 09:23 PM
  #106  
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Brent - that is looking good! I like the white color and the redone Follis decal on the down tube. Not so sure about leaving the original head tube color and the original seat tube decal since you’ve refinished all the rest of the frame; those things just sort of jump out at me with the rest of it looking so clean and spiffy.

Clearly, you were the right person to pass this bike along to. It’s a classic that does draw you in to the history of the brand and that age of cycling. It’s also fun to get acquainted with the function of some really old-school componentry. Good job!

Last edited by orcas island; 09-23-20 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 09-23-20, 10:18 PM
  #107  
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Good job and looks great to me. Now it should last at least another 75 years or so. Perhaps slip a note into the frame documenting the restoration. That's what instrument restorers do, essentially.
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Old 09-23-20, 10:50 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by obrentharris
A couple months ago @orcas island, who lives a few miles form me, offered this bike to me... free!
How could I resist? It was only the second time I have broken my rule about not acquiring bikes that don't fit me.
I thought I would do a little more clean up on it, learn a little bit about early Simplex derailleurs, and pass it on. Somewhere in the process of removing all the components I realized that I was emotionally much deeper into this project than I had anticipated.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. First let's tie up some loose ends. First a photo of the rear Exceltoo hub:




The rims are indeed 700c. I found the makers name very lightly engraved next to the valve hole. It is in an elegant script but I can't entirely discern it, maybe "Cervis" or Cervin." I can't get VeloBase to cooperate right now but I'm quite sure one of you can tell me what it is. The valve hole accomodates a schrader valve but I think that may be an after market alteration since the holes are a little ragged, the rim is lightly dimpled where the holes were drilled, and I find no chrome on the drilled surfaces.




Freewheel is Duban "Supremo."




The chain is Brampton... made in France!




Headset is "Lightrace."




I guess that last photo let the cat out of the bag.




I got a little over exuberant with the clearcoat and will have to let it cure for a few days before I can sand it. Torn between preserving the patina and getting rid of the battered brown finish I made sure that those on either side of the preserve/refinish debate will have a bone to pick with me. More photos and explanation once it's presentable.

In the meantime I could use a French bottom bracket cup to make into a thread chaser if any of you happen to have an orphan. The outside few threads on the fixed cup side are quite loose and ragged. I would like to rehabilitate them as best I can.

Brent
And here I thought you were only holding out on us with the OLMO.

This Follis is just fantastic, so glad you took it on.
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Old 09-24-20, 08:37 AM
  #109  
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-----

Brent -

I hope you realise just how profoundly saddened will be Dee Wallace Stone and Cloris Leachman to learn of the departure of Mademoiselle Follis from the island.

---

Jante -

checked at the three francophone C&V fora where am registered and there has never been mention of a "CERVIS" nor a "CERVIN" jante. There is a Mount Cervin in CH near Zermatt.

you could try rubbing the marking with a dark coloured crayon and then wiping it off. the wax will stay down in the low spots making it a bit easier to read. you could also have a go at making images of the marking from differing angles in strong light.

---

Very nice work; wonderful to see it moving forward!


-----
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Old 09-24-20, 01:10 PM
  #110  
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I once owned a Follis with those head lugs. it was given to me by a fellow bike shop worker
who knew I could appreciate the old stuff. he told me it was a '51 Tour de France.. it had the
more modern cable acuated front derailleur. therefore I'm thinking your bike is from the 40s
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Old 09-24-20, 03:03 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by steve sumner
I once owned a Follis with those head lugs. it was given to me by a fellow bike shop worker
who knew I could appreciate the old stuff. he told me it was a '51 Tour de France.. it had the
more modern cable acuated front derailleur. therefore I'm thinking your bike is from the 40s
-----

manual front mechs continued to be produced in the West at least as late as the early 1960's and as late as the late 1960's behind the iron curtain.

there was also a rather extensive period where both manual and cable operated front mechs were in current production.


-----
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Old 09-25-20, 02:17 PM
  #112  
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I would still put it in the 40s due to the rear derailleur. BTW I've always assumed that the clamp on shifters
made by Simplex and Huret that were left side only( right side has a gap to slip over a braze on)
were to retro fit bike with manual fronts. Is this true?
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Old 09-25-20, 02:27 PM
  #113  
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Brent - I have an orphan French Sugino cup that is yours if you still need one. PM me your details and I will forward it.
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Old 09-25-20, 09:08 PM
  #114  
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Here's the marking on the rims highlighted with red paint. Any suggestions?



Brent
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Old 09-25-20, 10:17 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by obrentharris
I could use a French bottom bracket cup to make into a thread chaser if any of you happen to have an orphan. The outside few threads on the fixed cup side are quite loose and ragged. I would like to rehabilitate them as best I can.
Ooh, that gives me the willies. This bike has come so far, and to ruin the BB thread now would be a tragedy. Not saying you WILL ruin it, just there's a risk, and I think it's a high risk.

I have Campy piloted BB taps in French, unfortunately many miles from where you are. But someone closer to you must have a set too. With the opposite-side tap threaded in thoroughly, and the very rigid pilot running in its high-precision fit, the side you're repairing will be guaranteed to be square and on-center. There are lots of other piloted tap sets besides Campy (e.g. Var, Park), but most of them suffer from more slop and more flex, and the slop and the flex can add up, so the concentricity and parallelness won't be quite as perfect. Likely good enough -- do you feel lucky?

With a DIY tap with no pilot, holding squarely enough will be super tricky. Unless you know some tricks? DIY pilot too? The very first threads being the ones that are munged, it will be very easy to do this wrong. I know I couldn't do that trick reliably enough, given how nice the frame is. But I also know there are people better at it than me.

I apologize if you are a whiz at this, and I'm getting worked up over nothing. I do that sometimes.

Oh yeah and thanks for continuing to share the pics and story. I've been following the thread since day 1.

Mark B in Seattle

Last edited by bulgie; 09-25-20 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 09-26-20, 08:23 AM
  #116  
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Thanks Mark for the warning. I appreciate that an unpiloted tap runs the danger of creating threads that will put the cup out of parallel with both the BB and the opposite cup. Fortunately for me the existing threads are in good enough shape that the cups starts properly. there is just a bit of roughness in the outer 3 or 4 threads which I am trying to smooth out a little.

Before receiving Jim's offer of an orphan cup I achieved some success at cleaning out the threads with a sharp steel pick. I shall proceed with caution with the thread chaser that I will make out of the cup that Jim is sending me.
Brent
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Old 09-26-20, 02:42 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by obrentharris
Thanks Mark for the warning. I appreciate that an unpiloted tap runs the danger of creating threads that will put the cup out of parallel with both the BB and the opposite cup. Fortunately for me the existing threads are in good enough shape that the cups starts properly. there is just a bit of roughness in the outer 3 or 4 threads which I am trying to smooth out a little.

Before receiving Jim's offer of an orphan cup I achieved some success at cleaning out the threads with a sharp steel pick. I shall proceed with caution with the thread chaser that I will make out of the cup that Jim is sending me.
Brent
The pick is key, I use a right angle and scribe the threads clean mm by mm with a twisting motion that often almost fixes many buggered threads just doing that.

Once that is done, threading the chaser almost always goes well, I use anti-seize for the chasing and have never failed to make one fully usable.

If the cup a bit sloppy from all this I use a drop or two of Loctite and the clamp method to get it good and tight.
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Old 09-26-20, 02:55 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by steve sumner
I once owned a Follis with those head lugs. it was given to me by a fellow bike shop worker
who knew I could appreciate the old stuff. he told me it was a '51 Tour de France.. it had the
more modern cable acuated front derailleur. therefore I'm thinking your bike is from the 40s
Originally Posted by juvela
-----

manual front mechs continued to be produced in the West at least as late as the early 1960's and as late as the late 1960's behind the iron curtain.

there was also a rather extensive period where both manual and cable operated front mechs were in current production.


-----
...I'm relatively sure the one I have here is from the very tail end of the 1950's. ('58 or''59)


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Old 09-28-20, 05:15 PM
  #119  
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The Sugino French cup is in the mail and winging its way towards you.
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Old 10-16-20, 04:44 PM
  #120  
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Some progress on this.




An explanation is in order regarding my apparently haphazard approach to this restoration. I don't have the budget to allocate several hundred dollars to rechroming, nor do I have the inclination since the bike is much too small for me, my wife already has a lovely Jack Taylor Mixte, and my daughter has a Peugeot Mixte.

Unfortunately the oxalic acid bath was not kind to the dull brown, originally red, paint, further discoloring it and leaving a surface that no amount of polishing would improve. The ivory paint remained intact. This is the first time I've had this result from oxalic acid, but this is the first time I've used it on paint that was so compromised to begin with. It was then that I decided to repaint the brown sections. Color choice was simple. @orcas island had mentioned light blue which seemed a great choice to me. I had some light blue paint and some white paint left over from previous projects, but not enough of either for a complete bike. So the final color was determined by mixing the two together. Pot luck painting! In preparation for painting I applied a thin coat of bondo to the seat stays where a rack had scarred them pretty badly. To my dismay the bondo reacted with the paint leaving white spots on the stays. Further proof that I am not a professional painter.



I could have painted over the chrome. In fact I did paint the chrome on the seat stays and the berceau stays, which was in very bad shape. I like the chrome on the head lugs in spite of its ragged state. To me it is one of the defining features of this bike. Given that the chrome would remain in its current disheveled state I had to decide about the ivory panels. They are nice enough that I decided to keep them. I also decided to keep the hand-painted tricolor on the seat tube panel and the tops of the seat stays. They say something of the history of this bike which was built at a time when this was fairly common practice on French bikes. I like the evidence of the human hand at work. I will admit this is a peculiar process I went through, picking and choosing which patina to keep and which to eliminate; also an experiment just to see how it would turn out.




To lessen the contrast between the shiny new clear coat and the older ivory panels I rubbed down the clear coat with 1500 grit paper and rubbing compound to knock down the luster a little bit. I then polished the ivory panels with rubbing compound to bring it up to a similar luster. Then a coat of carnauba wax over all.


I am awaiting a tire to complete my work. Until then a couple more photos.






Brent
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Old 10-16-20, 06:50 PM
  #121  
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Brent- I think you’ve done a lovely job with this. You were up against the same reality I was: a really deteriorated paint and chrome situation that would have cost a bundle to have professionally refinished. I think you’ve made some good choices in your approach to the frame, and it is looking much better then it did when I handed it off to you.
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Old 10-16-20, 06:52 PM
  #122  
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.
...I had similar back and forth deliberations about the head tube fancy lug castings on mine. Mine were fortunately more rusted than yours, so I just went with primer and silver/chrome paint on them after de-rusting. I don't know who did up that downtube decal for you, but it is very nice. I might have gone with that original design on mine if I could have figured out an easy way to get it reproduced. I never did find a very good online image of that decal to work with, which was part of the problem, I think.
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Old 10-17-20, 02:32 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
.
...I had similar back and forth deliberations about the head tube fancy lug castings on mine. Mine were fortunately more rusted than yours, so I just went with primer and silver/chrome paint on them after de-rusting. I don't know who did up that downtube decal for you, but it is very nice. I might have gone with that original design on mine if I could have figured out an easy way to get it reproduced. I never did find a very good online image of that decal to work with, which was part of the problem, I think.
I think your Follis looks great! I think the font you picked for the decals has just the right amount of whimsy to it.
My decals came from Cyclomondo. They're kind of hidden in the website. You have to click on "France" on the home page to get to the correct page.
Brent
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Old 10-17-20, 06:04 PM
  #124  
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I have a nice condition ‘73 model 172 that I enjoy but looking at your progress I’m getting jealous.
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Old 10-20-20, 08:08 PM
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obrentharris 
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Finished at last.










I took it out for an early morning ride, about two miles. Much too small for me but a lot of fun.
Shifting between your legs isn't bad after the first few fumbling attempts.
The saddle will have to go though. It sags like an ancient mattress and I'm afraid any attempt to tighten it will just rip it in half.

It's been a really fun project and I have a new appreciation for the quality of those old Simplex derailleurs! But, in keeping with my resolution to keep only bikes that fit me, this one may show up in the "Frame Doesn't Fit" thread. Let me know if you see any project bikes of similar vintage in the 60cm range. I'm eager to put one together that I can put some miles on.

Thank you all for your encouragement and advise. Thanks again to @orcas island for this opportunity, and thanks to @bertinjim for the French cup.

Brent
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