winfred0000

Age 69, retired, no car, subsist on Social Security and bicycle commuting. I知 planning bike tours with my Bucket List. Aiming for trial 1,500-2,000 mile trip, then possibly a last worldwide trip through 54 countries possibly taking several years. Have a 26 inch (spent $480 on custom wheels about 2 yrs ago) 1998 Diamondback mountain bike, 4130 Cro-Mo rigid frame. Need to carry camping gear and Surly racks seem the best (?). Frame builder suggested $790 for braze-ons including the Surly racks. I did research then I later asked him about the bolt-on strap style mounts he never brought up. He said he値l do it with bolt-ons for $400 including the Surly racks and that plenty tour that way, but any more questions will require a consultation fee.

Concerned about bolt-on reliability. Unsure whether to save money and invest in braze-ons for added security during tours but face a very low budget reality. I still need to buy quite a lot of additional camping gear and Gotlieb front panniers. What would you do? Seeking advice on the reliability of bolt-ons for touring. Thanks for any advice!!

StanSeven

Moved to Touring to get more relevant replies

GamblerGORD53

Get serious. You couldn't find a more useless transportation bike if you tried. How the hell do you carry groceries now??
Doesn't even have fender mounts.

mams99

Getting started on a bike tour journey is very expensive - even with getting baseline gear if it's more than a weekend jaunt.

There are TONS of excellent used bikes out there, but it's finding the right size and fit. Then slowly get the gear - some of it secondhand. I had tons of camping gear, but it was a WHOLE NEW ballgame with getting things smaller and lighter weight. Now I'm working on getting the bike I want to be my "forever bike".

Tourist in MSN

First of all, I think you should look at Tubus racks. I had Surly front and rear racks. After two tours, decided that the front rack was much more weight than I wanted, donated the front rack to charity. The Tubus front racks I currently use are a Tara on one bike, an Ergo (discontinued) on another bike. For the rear, I use my rear surly rack for riding around near home with my heavy touring bike, for riding around near home I like the wide platform. But 11 years ago bought a new Tubus Logo EVO rear rack for touring, it is half the weight and is stiffer that the Surly. It also places my panniers lower for a lower center of gravity. The Logo was designed to be a great pannier carrier, very narrow upper platform, but when touring with panniers, you do not need a wide platform, I think a narrower one is better.

You want rack mounts brazed to the frame if you are doing a lot of touring. That said, another option would be to do your 1500-2000 mile trip with some clamps, then re-think your bike choices as at that time you might decide to invest in a different bike instead of investing in rack mounts on the old one.

Calsun

No advantage to braze-on fittings as this is a convenience to have a cleaner look and used primarilty for the front derailleur and the brake mounts. Your total cargo load should be less than 30 lbs and that is not much for the pannier racks to support.

The North Vietnamese used bicycles to carry up to 500 lbs through the jungles on trails and managed to move enough material to defeat the U.S. armed forces over a period of 20 years. Bikes are inherently very strong and talk to anyone at local bike shops about frame or wheel failures. Usually it is from riding off curbs or having a 220+ pound rider.

I used standard bike racks for 5 years with loads from 15-25 lbs and never had it fail. The advantage of the pannier racks is that they make it easier to keep the bags out of the spokes.

saddlesores

screw that builder!
$800 for brazeons and racks?
AND consultation fee to answer questions?

racks are simple. local bike shop/coop can order what you want and install.
you probably have rack/fender mounts on the dropouts already............correct?
so the builder was just going to give you brazeons on the seatstays and midforks?
you'll be fine with heavy-duty P-clamps. use blue loctite, and check once a month.

TiHabanero

I had commuted for decades using P-clamps and an off the shelf alloy rack (Blackburn and Vetta), plus toured using them as well. Never had a failure. I used nyloc nuts instead of Locktite thread locker with standard nuts. Simpler solution in my books. Touring does not require super fancy equipment, and can be done on a simple bicycle with basic gear. I know this for sure as it is what I personally do. I advise that you step back and take a look at bicycle touring from the 60's and 70's to get a feel as to how simple the gear was and just how low cost one can go and have a successful tour. The time to find this out is on your trial run.
An alcohol stove simply makes sense around the globe.
A 2 person tent around 4 pounds with fly will do the job well. I suspect you will need to replace it at least once on a round the globe trip.
An alloy rear or front rack will work well for a long time if the rack is not burdened with 40 pounds of gear. The lighter the better for the rack.
Mountain Morph or Road Morph from Topeak makes a good choice for a pump. Expect to replace it at least once during the global ride.

As for panniers, I am not a fan of the plastic mounting hardware of the current crop of waterproof panniers, thus I have stayed with my old Jannd Economy panniers from 1999. They use metal mounting hooks and a bungie suspension cord. Has worked flawlessly all these years. Don't hold much, only about 14L per side, but that helps control how much crap one packs! When used in combination with a front rack and panniers of the same size, it is ample room for necessities.

winfred0000

Hello Tourist in MSN!

Impressive post with valuable information! Are the "Tubus Logo EVO" racks made of steel, and how do they manage to be lighter and stiffer than Surly racks? Is the “Tara rack for the front made by Tubus?

Do Tubus racks position panniers lower than Surly racks?

Having experience with both Surly and Tubus is excellent! However, I can't afford another bike. Do you really mean I'll need to invest in a better bike than what I have now for my 54-country tour?

I managed to get a good 4-season two-person tent by saving Christmas and Birthday money. I had to get a very good tent for all the climates and no tent break-downs. Also I need an all climate sleeping bag of some type. Unfortunately, I can't afford the expensive vaccines I need for the trip. Some people suggested getting them in other countries at a lower cost, but this might delay my travel plans. I also need a better sleeping bag for all climates from Amazon jungle to high Andes to Sahara Desert. At 69 I also wonder if I have the stamina to do all of this… Also suddenly all of my salivary glands stopped working which doesn't help matters, although I think I'm in pretty good cardio shape.

While I found a new bike with all the stays for $1,300, I can't afford it, and my current wheels won't fit. My custom-made 26-inch mountain bike wheels have been great for commuting and hauling groceries, and other mechanics saying how they are "bullet proof", custom wheels I got thanks to feedback from this amazing site. The frame builder really liked my old Diamondback 4130 steel frame, but you seem more experienced than he is with touring. The only reason I can afford this modification and racks is because I'm so low income Social Security I get "Renter's Credit" refund from the State. I worked 32 years but for very low pay, so no major retirement pension here. I'll have to pay monthly storage of about six plastic totes, my guitar and banjo... I have, the totality of my "material world" ha!

I'm considering a Burley Coho one-wheeled trailer as a simpler option, but having panniers and no trailer might make bicycle hitchhiking easier, or loading onto a ship to get from South America to Africa. I already have the rear Gotlieb panniers and would need to spend around $140 for the front panniers and $400 quoted price for the bolt-on installation using Surly racks, yet I’m going to look at the Tubus racks. The frame building like Nitto racks made in Japan but later I learned they cost twice as much as Surly racks… It seems my reality is the bolt-on racks as I still must buy other camping stuff like one of those tiny wood burning stoves. I live on a Carnivore Diet and wondering how I’m going to do that as freeze dried foods are all with carbs and other stuff.

Is there anything important I might be overlooking? I truly appreciate your assistance and everyone else's in this matter. Any input for anyone is appreciated too.

"Pennsylvania 6-5000"!! Winfred

irc

Buy a Tubus set of clamps for mounting racks on frames without braze ons. If Tubus sell them they will be up to the job. At that price buy a spare set for your round the world tour. They have the other advantage over a random P clip from the hardware store of coming in sizes appropriate to various tube diameters. Measure before ordering.

This may be a UK only site but the item will be sold in the USA also.

https://www.totalcycling.com/en/gb/T...t/m-24130.aspx

winfred0000

Hi! Thankyou StanSeven! I didn't know after former search there is a touring section. Great idea!

winfred0000

Hi GamblerGord! I weigh a lot so I have a mountain bike and was breaking so many spokes I 2 yrs ago on my stimulus money spent $480 on my present wheels other mechanics have said are "bullet proof". I bought a Shimano Acera derailleur. The ridgid frame is an old Diamondback 4130 Cro-Mo and it came to me when my former Diamondback frame was unuseable when the mechanics could not remove the bottom bracket it was rusted in so bad so they found this 1998 frame that was the same. The frame looked hardly ever used and even the delicate decals from the store that originally sold it was still on the frame. In a way it's a now a frame with 5 years use. I presently have the Axion rear rack rated to 100lbs carrying weight, so the guy who sold it to me said. A mechanic at another shop said "no way" can it support that much weight. So that's how I get around. I decided to buy the more durable Portland Design Works metal fenders and there are the threaded islets for fenders on my bike and holes at the top for 2 mounting points for fenders that work fine. I was told my frame is very strong. That's what I get by with and hope to tour the world on my Bucket List.
Top of the Evening!
Winfred

abdon 

I like your bike, but either of the two sums you mention are insane to spend on putting racks on your bike. Sounds to be like you are dealing with a want rather than a real need.

Clamps would work just fine. A $50 rack would work just fine. Check and see if there is a bike collective near you, mine has a stack of racks that are most likely under $10 a pop.

Heck the biggest problem with dropping a ton of coin on something like this before you even start your touring is that you may find it is not ideal. The best way to dial things in is through trial and error until you settle on what works best. Start that trial with the cheap rack, don't upgrade it until you have an actual issue to fix.

TiHabanero

I second abdon's proposal. It is wise to find out what you need through experience rather than what you want based on others opinions. Using what you currently have go for a weekend trip. 3 days that's all. Do it again modifying what you bring along for the ride. Take several week trips and do the same. This is a process of honing in on what works/doesn't work, what you need and don't need. Finally take that 1500 mile trip and learn from it. A round the globe trot is a major endeavor, but not impossible. I have never done it and have no desire to do it, but I am certain that it will not be easy physically or mentally.

At 69 nothing is easy, is it? LOL

Tourist in MSN

I just spent an hour and a half responding to your post, and my browser crashed (again). Not going to try to repeat that.

Tubus Logo EVO is steel.

Tara is made by Tubus, also steel.

Logo EVO mounts pannier lower than Surly.

Useful links:
https://www.tubus.com/en/products/re...oduct/logo-evo
https://www.tubus.com/en/products/fr...s-product/tara

Clicking on technical drawings has more info.

mstateglfr 

Bet.
Post your bike.

tcs

Hardware store P-clip:


Tubus strap-on mount:



Use thread locker (Loctite) or Nyloc nuts, or check that the fasteners are tight daily on your tours.

Outside the box: depending on how much dunnage you want to schlep, modern 'bikepacking' bags don't require racks.

tcs

Hmm. I got started by strapping some old family and Boy Scout camping gear onto my Schwinn Varsity Tourist and riding to the nearby National Recreation Area. YMMV.

abdon 

Honestly if you have little money you should invest in demystifying bike mechanics. Spend your money on tools, not fancy parts. A rack can be had for cheap, and a properly installed P clamp can be as reliable as braze ons.

Nothing will kill a long tour faster than having something grinding on you that you don't know how to take apart and replace. If you know how to do that it is just an inconvenience, not an expensive reroute to a bike shop.

Get the oldest bike you can find, if it is rusted even better. Chances are it will be free. Chances are you'll have to fight the bike for every part you have to take out which would be great; the experience will teach you more than years of reading about it.

As we speak I'm literally dissolving an aluminum seatpost on a steel frame with sodium hydroxide (lye) because it was stuck beyond human power to remove. That is a bit extreme but the point is, you learn by doing. The first time you break a bolt on a braze on (ideally on the beater free bike you use to learn) you will pick up a ton of knowledge that will keep you safe and rolling in the wide road.

winfred0000

Hi saddlsores!

The builder that looked at my bike this last attempt it took 10 days before he replied, same as my first attempt. I had already had him look at my bike in-person and that's when he quoted the $790 for Surly front and rear racks. $210 for three pairs of braze-ons front fork. He mentioned quite a few things about the rear including a second set of threaded islets at the "drop-outs" so if the existing ones broke they'd be a back-up set. Is that common? So the rear he said $280. He said he really likes the Nitto Japanese racks, but I later found out they cost twice as much as the Surly brand and that was after I'd said I'm a very low budget Senior and relying on my annual "Renter's Credit" to come late July or early August. He said the Surly racks come to $300. If Surly racks then add all together 210+280+300 to be $790 plus tax.

I didn't know bolt-ons existed. I thought all touring bikers had braze-ons. Even the four bike shops I went to that sell used parts and used bikes (some sell new too) virtually all never said anything about bolt-ons and all suggested the same guy to do the braze-ons, either that or buy new as used bikes with needed braze-ons don't exist as usually the owners try to hang onto their touring bikes.

I did research myself and discovered there are "bolt-ons" or straps. So for my first ever bike touring trip could be from 1,500 to 2,000 miles visiting relatives first time in years and going to a Provincial Park in Canada. Maybe... I hope to possibly bike/hitch across Canada and returning to Newfoundland. I hitched NFL for three weeks back in October 1989. Having panniers and no trailer I thought it might also be easier to get rides, although bike/hitching isn't my emphasis.

Also after that trial trip will be my big Bucket List last wish to tour the world through Mexico all the way to Terra del Fuego in Argentina then across to Africa from South Africa to Egypt or maybe the other direction to SE Asia and across to Europe and Africa...taking years to complete and at times in cheaper countries renting an apartment or room with a hot plate in an area that attracts me. That's my goal. It's funny as locally no one really in my recent attempts suggested bolt-ons! They just all named the same builder.

Then the builder after he email answered my last attempt 10 days later, he would never answer my questions and never did like he originally said when we met in-person to email me an itemized list of his quote. Then he said only consult fees from now on. When I tried to answer there was a general email block notice telling all, not just me, no clients or answers until after August 17th. I think he doesn't need me, plus I guess I don't represent myself very well, a common short-coming. I'm glad for the great advice here from all, and your great advice.

What if I bought the Surly racks myself and did the bolt-ons? Is DIY very difficult? The only space I have is my apartment but at this one coop shop you can rent a bike bench for $5 an hour (was the price 2 yrs ago), the same shop that never said anything about bolt-ons ha! Is one brand of bolt-on hardware better than another? I suppose maybe there are DIY tutorials about it.

Do you have a favorite brand of touring rack? Any other advice from you or others is greatly appreciated! I'm going to look at "Talus Logo EVO" rear rack, "Tara racks by Tubus" as another member advised, that's if I got the names right. Maybe I can do it all myself for about $350?

THANKS!!!
WINFRED
PS What is a heavy duty P-clamp? Are there various brands and one better than another? I also remember a shop said once all the braze-ons are installed they would then install the racks at $20 front and $20 rear.

winfred0000

Hi abdon!

Thanks so much for taking the time. At the top with my original first post I mention what I have and that's my bike for everything, my 1998 Diamondback rigid frame 4130 Cro-Mo. I need to research different brands of racks advised here. I already looked at Surly costing $300 total. There is a bike coop that charges $5 an hour (2 yrs ago) to rent a bench. Is there one brand of p-clamps that is better than another? Also I need to find a tutorial on how to go the clamp-on route. One shop said once I had the braze-ons they'd install $20 front rack and $20 rear rack. None of the 4 shops I went to in-person never even said anything about the clamp route! I discovered that reading online. All they said was go to the same frame builder that quoted $790 if I got the Surly racks through him. Another here said Surly's are heavy however I want steel racks as if there is a problem they can be welded. Another advised "Talus Logo EVO rear rack, "Tara racks by Tubus" so I'm going to try to find those and think things through. Do you think having a second set of threaded islets welded in down by the existing ones down by my drop-outs as a back up in case the existing ones break off is a good idea?

That's amazing you're actually dissolving an aluminum seatpost, wow! I never heard of that! I hope none of the hydroxide runs down the seat tube to your bottom bracket and rusts it in place. Salt water got down my former frame and my bottom bracket couldn't be removed. The shop advised $341 to switch all over to my present frame they found... that's what I did and should have bought another used bike instead, but all another story and another example of me not representing myself very well, just like with the present frame builder that quoted $790 price to make braze-ons for Surly racks. Any other advise from you or anyone is much appreciated!

THANKS!!
Winfred

winfred0000

Hi TCS!

I like your quotes and should read some of those books! Amazing to think what that lady wrote in 1899!! She was a true "free thinker"!! You went on an amazing trip for very low cost! My problem is I'm going first 1,500 to 2,000 mile trial trip because I've never done it before and I'm 69. Then my final world trip through 54 countries on my list and taking years to do it so I need sturdy everything. I might even have to get some kind of electric assist along the way as climbing mountain roads in the Andes, or the Punjab, or Nepal, or Mongolia... I might have to face a different reality. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Sometimes I think "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, or for me a single pedal stroke ha" (Laot Tzu)

Later!
Winfred

saddlesores

when assembling touring bikes in the usa, i always went with blackburn racks.
check with forum members for current build quality.

you can pick up NOS (new old stock = unused) racks off ebay much cheaper, and they should have the hardware in the package, including P-clamps for bikes without upper braze-ons.

For example:

New-Old-Stock Vintage BLACKBURN MTN-1+ Rear Rack with Hardware • Black (buy now $60)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234855024948

Vintage NOS Blackburn Front Pannier Rack FL-1 Lowrider Black Bicycle Touring (buy now $95)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285366324902


there are many NOS blackburn racks on offer, as well as other brands. these are for illustration only.

and here's an auction for a PAIR of blackburn racks, used but look to be in good shape. the front is a standard type rack, not a lowrider. you could pick this pair up cheap, have a hipster at the bike coop install with P-clamps for $25 or so. start out with these for your break-in tour, later decide if you want to upgrade.

Vintage Blackburn Racks (no bids yet, start $50)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/126024727581

winfred0000

Wow TCS!!

Thanks for even taking pictures! I like the allan wrench connect as I have such tools in my bike tools I carry with me. So order Tubus strap-ons through the company? I haven't looked to see if Tubus has a website or not being I'm answering all the great advice here! You are all saving me so much! I might though, being 69, have to at one point buy some kind of electric assist as I face major mountain passes in the Andes, or Punjab, or Nepal and other regions. I think it's not so hard to DIY mounting the racks, right?

Thanks!
Winfred

winfred0000

Great saddlesores! So nice of you to go out of your way with me! I'll look those racks up! You're the bur in my saddle ha!

top of the evening!
Winfred