gauvins

Just completed an order of various replacement parts for our bikes (XT-grade cassettes, chains, etc.) and felt that the price isn't trivial. Adding to this the fact what my shifting is hesitant -- not bad, but the chain is sometimes floating a couple of revolutions before moving down, or needing "some encouragement" in the form of pushing the trigger just before the next click for the chain to move up -- I am reconsidering IGH (Pinion p1.18 most likely).

A back-of-the-envelope estimate would be that a Pinion, costing 1 500$ above a derailleur system, will require 10 years to break even, assuming constant costs and 5 000 kms/year. Asking a LLM, I find 3-5 years. As I tend to tour 3-5 000 kms per summer and commute a bit, that would perhaps mean a 3 year break even period (seems optimistic, or I do not replace parts as often as I should). At 3 year break-even, I'll take a Pinion; at 10 year, I'll stick with XT. Somewhere in between... fate will decide.

What's your take?

Iride01 

Do you have to have a break even point?

If you want it, get it.

Unless it's a big hit to your retirement savings. And I hope the relatively puny $1500 onetime isn't a big hit to that.


What is the break even point for getting a bicycle in general?

Andrew R Stewart 

I see the reasons to run an IGH VS a der system to be less about cost over time and more about how it affects each and every mile I will ride. Andy

base2 

Parts and materials cost are one thing that's deceptively easy to calculate. Especially if you discount labor or unscheduled repair. What's the going rate for a derailleur and hanger that got wrapped up in the wheel? What's the time cost to/from the bike shop. What's the opportunity cost of bike depravation while it's in the shop or a lost days worth of work if an unfortunate event happened on a commute?

IGH's are not intended for high-performance racing. If you are not going to do that particular activity, the savings are in reliability and avoided unnecessary maintenance and risk. As an added bonus chains tend to last way longer, too on account of the straight chain line.

Some IGH's do indeed need X miles to break-in. For the first 500 miles I thought my Rohloff had a problem. By 1500 miles it was passable. At 5000 it is simply smoother, quieter, and from an efficiency standpoint, indistinguishable from any derailleur system. That's not a bad thing. A Rohloff is a lifetime purchase, after all. I imagine the Pinion is no different.

To my mind, I don't think that Pinion is right for everybody. Dedicated frame design, to me presents a liability to future service and support. Combine that with the double-whammy of belt drive and higher meshing gear efficiency losses of the Pinion design than a Rohloff hub...I'm not convinced it's the best possible option. But, It may very well be "good enough" for many.

Bill Kapaun

That symptom sounds like a cable/housing that needs to be lubed or replaced.
You have too much "slop" in the adjustment to compensate for the sluggish upshift, since RDER spring tension is what "pulls" the cable when the shifter releases it.

Spend $50 on new cables & housing. Or at least lube and replace the short bend by the RDER and see if that helps.
Also lube the RDER pivots.

gauvins

Seems to be the consensus. Will do and report. Thanks to you (and others) for your time

gauvins

Mysterious statement Are you referring to lower efficiency and clumsy shifter, or to the peace of mind when you go through a muddy section. (your comment is positive or negative?)

gauvins

I see 3 reasons for my preference towards Pinion -- (1) Rear wheel removal (taking trains/subways/planes) should be easier since the wheel is going to be quite lighter; (2) but mostly because the P1.18 has smaller steps; (3) Panoramacycles has just released the Boreal Pinion. To great reviews. I have a sentimental attachment to the town where they are located (small town where I grew up) and they have received absolutely fabulous reviews.

Rick

I and another member of the forum have had our Rohloff equippted bicycles over 10 years. I don't look at how much cost difference there is. I look more at the ease of maintenance and dependability. I enjoy riding my Rohloff equippted bicycle much more than previous bicycles. When it comes to maintenance on it, it is more like my car. There is less to do and fuss with.

Bill Kapaun

It's a classic symptom.
I don't know what kind of shifters you have, but my 3 bikes have Shimano Rapid Fire types and when I do an upshift, you can kind of feel/hear the RDER "hitting the stop" and a quick shift.
A sluggish cable and it takes time to allow the RDER to SLOWLY (relatively) move into the correct position.
The rear loop has a severe bend and tends to wear a groove in the housing. (I wonder if it'd stay in place if one simply rotated it 1/2 turn to give a new wear surface? Just a thought I just had)

IF you have exposed cable, put it in the highest gear (lowest cable tension) and then you can easily get the cable housing out of the stops.
You can then slide the housing back & forth to expose the wire for cleaning/lubing/inspecting.
I forgot to mention the possibility of a strand of cable breaking and causing similar problems as it "wads up".

veganbikes

I think a Rohloff or Pinion may or may not be cheaper but if you want one go for it. Rohloff is awesome and Pinion is probably also awesome but I haven't ridden one yet.

Andrew R Stewart 

There's a big difference between how IGHs (and Pinion to a lesser degree) feel during the shift. How one feels about this is opinion.

Efficiency: I think I can feel the added friction of most every IGH I have tried, compared to the der system bikes I also have ridden. I know from my LBS life that some riders are more sensitive to this then others are... I am one of those.

So much of the Pinion talk is also about a belt drive. It's refreshing to read a thread where IGH are not paired with a belt. Or am I the one assuming that no statement about a belt means that Pinion are now only available with belt drives? Admittedly most all that I recall do have a belt (including a very good friend's CoMotion).

My opinion of belt drives is not a positive one. I have to admit to only having a few dozen test rides on bikes that have a belt drive. Nearly every one has been a Gates system. The feel of the belt is not one I have ever gotten use to. Some of it reminds me of the Silent Clutch (roller clutch) hubs that seem to have a "soft" drive engagement, a mushy feel. Some of it reminds me of that small but noticed bit of friction once rolling along with an IGH but not in it's direct drive gear. Some of it is the increased need of alignment WRT the cogs and that need for a splitter in a stay. It's hard for me to move on from the life of chains and their minimal friction when running with minimal tensions (as with single speed and IGH) to a drive that is under constant tension.

Note that none of this is about $. I make my own frames and can pretty much build whatever I want for far less then most here can get. I've had SA AWs and FWs in my stable for decades, building a frame around my alloy shelled AW at one time. The most recent IGH spec frame was for a SA RX-RK5. I found the new design hub had far more friction than the AWs have so moved it along to another friend. Andy

Rick

Andrew R Stewart: I have a Rohloff equipped bicycle with the gates carbon drive. It is 10 years old and I prefer it to a chain drive setup. The Rohloff has the least added friction of any internal geared system and is tandem rated. The belt needing no lubrication sheds dirt instead of attracting it. Other than a fixed gear, the angle of the shifted chain combined with the build up of garbage create as much or more friction than my setup.

FBinNY 

I'm curious about the cost estimates for staying with derailleurs. FWIW, I get over 2,000 miles on a chain, and more than double that on cassettes, and 10+ times that on chainrings.

Derailleurs last forever, unless you crash, though levers don't, but still my total drive train costs are in pennies per mile range.

Starting fresh, there are many factors in choosing between IGH and derailleur bikes. However, I can't see a cost basis for changing from one you have to another.

GamblerGORD53

I just rode my 73 lb Rohloff a flat 100 miles in 11 hours, only the 2nd highway ride of the season. The first was 64 miles 3 weeks ago. All I have to do is move my legs 8 or 9 hours, and recover dehydration on the couch. LOL. It did take 12,000 miles to loosen up.
Nothing to get ready but fill the tires and 3 bottles and choose what to wear. With my chain case, I finally got a good 1/8" chainring and went 4,000 miles with one cleaning and lube in 3 years I think. I just put on a new one, quiet as a mouse. Last year I finally got around to modifying the case so it would quit creaking.
I think a belt goes 4x as far at 4x the cost, so that breaks even. I guess it would be nicer on a world tour, as proven by Alee Denham.
Same with my dyno drum brake that has done 32,000 miles, outlasting 5 sets of disc pads.
There is ZERO chance I would ever have left home with complicated finicky double shift crosschained deFaileurs and weak spokes and dangly hanger. LOL.
Most seem to like Pinion with the lower low gear, and price hidden in the whole bike cost. I don't think the 17% jump is much of a problem. I have NO lag with 13.6% on the R14.
My SA XL-RD5w is still the fastest and least drag.