All 8 speed groups worked well?
#1
we be rollin'
Thread Starter
All 8 speed groups worked well?
I heard that comment in a Youtube video where some cyclists were comparing Shimano, SRAM and Campy. Then someone said that all the 8 speed groups worked great. If that's the case, wouldn't some manufacturers still want to make some quality 8 speed groups?
Likes For hybridbkrdr:
#2
Long time part timer
I disagree
I did not find the Shimano Sora ST-3303 to work all that well...
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...3-no-trim.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...3-no-trim.html
#3
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 15,094
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6255 Post(s)
Liked 4,857 Times
in
3,347 Posts
Why do you think the current 8 speed groups aren't good enough? Would you buy a 8 speed bike with a super great 8 speed group on it when you could get a 12 speed Di2 or eTap SRAM bike for the same price?
#4
Must be symmetrical
but I doubt a mass-produced 8 speed group that is based on established, boring technology would cost anywhere near 12 speed electronic. The price is as much about maintaining an aura of exclusivity in a particular market segment as it is about how much production cost, so they would always cost more, I suspect.
#5
Must be symmetrical
the distinction is important because 8 speed is now associated with cheap groups, but that wasn't the case in the 90s. 8 speed 600 Ultegra worked great, I would agree, but it was a high-end group.
#6
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 15,094
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6255 Post(s)
Liked 4,857 Times
in
3,347 Posts
I doubt they would be the same price, so you're kind of setting up a false comparison--ok unless it's this: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop...ar-derailleur/ . but, here, the exception that proves the rule answers your question: in the case of the RH derailleur, we can see that there are in fact people who bought that, and the total cost, factoring in that you have to get your frame modified, is comparable to an electronic 12 speed.
but I doubt a mass-produced 8 speed group that is based on established, boring technology would cost anywhere near 12 speed electronic. The price is as much about maintaining an aura of exclusivity in a particular market segment as it is about how much production cost, so they would always cost more, I suspect.
but I doubt a mass-produced 8 speed group that is based on established, boring technology would cost anywhere near 12 speed electronic. The price is as much about maintaining an aura of exclusivity in a particular market segment as it is about how much production cost, so they would always cost more, I suspect.
The current 8 speed groups shift well enough when adjusted correctly. And they last long enough. So what endearing thing will make them more quality for them? What ever that thing is, it's likely to cost more. So if I have a 8 speed group that has qualities that put its price up at the level of the groups with more speeds, I'm buying the bike that has the group with more speeds on it.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: western Massachusetts (greater Springfield area)
Posts: 699
Bikes: Velosolex St. Tropez, LeMond Zurich (spine bike), Rotator swb recumbent
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 67 Times
in
32 Posts
I bought my daughter a Specialized Sirrus in 2009, it has 8 speed Altus,
Other than a bent derailleur hanger, (not the derailleurs fault) it has worked fine with minimal maintenance, and still does.
The chain lasts forever (comparatively.
For those who don't need close ratios/small steps, they are fine.
"Back in the day" ten speed meant something very different, and we still rode on the same roads and up the same hillls.
Other than a bent derailleur hanger, (not the derailleurs fault) it has worked fine with minimal maintenance, and still does.
The chain lasts forever (comparatively.
For those who don't need close ratios/small steps, they are fine.
"Back in the day" ten speed meant something very different, and we still rode on the same roads and up the same hillls.
#8
Full Member
There's nothing wrong with 8sp. A couple of years ago, I did some hill riding in Ireland and the only road bike I could rent had low-end 8sp Shimano - 11-34, so the jumps between the gears were monstrous. I wasn't wild about the choice, but half-way through the first day, the number of gears ceased to matter - and the 34:34 low gear was a godsend!
However, "More is Better" is Marketing 101, be it megapixels in digital cameras, meters of water resistance in diving watches, or gears on bicycles. The 8sp that was perfectly fine a month ago is suddenly obsolete, and you need 9sp (or so you're told), or you'll....die or something.
However, "More is Better" is Marketing 101, be it megapixels in digital cameras, meters of water resistance in diving watches, or gears on bicycles. The 8sp that was perfectly fine a month ago is suddenly obsolete, and you need 9sp (or so you're told), or you'll....die or something.
Likes For 13ollocks:
#9
Must be symmetrical
It's a construct for illustrative purposes. I'm not going to argue whether a better quality 8 speed group would be as expensive as the new groups with 12 speeds.
The current 8 speed groups shift well enough when adjusted correctly. And they last long enough. So what endearing thing will make them more quality for them? What ever that thing is, it's likely to cost more. So if I have a 8 speed group that has qualities that put its price up at the level of the groups with more speeds, I'm buying the bike that has the group with more speeds on it.
The current 8 speed groups shift well enough when adjusted correctly. And they last long enough. So what endearing thing will make them more quality for them? What ever that thing is, it's likely to cost more. So if I have a 8 speed group that has qualities that put its price up at the level of the groups with more speeds, I'm buying the bike that has the group with more speeds on it.
If i were a marketeer, i would advertise the new 8 speed goupset as the adventure groupset for independent minded adventurous adventurers who adventure far from the beaten path and require unprecedented levels of durability and performance in adverse, adventurous conditions.
I would then sell them a remake of an rd m951. Oh wait, that is basically what riv is doing with the om1, except they toned down the design. And it will sell out immediately.
Likes For Frkl:
#10
Senior Member
I doubt they would be the same price, so you're kind of setting up a false comparison--ok unless it's this: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop...ar-derailleur/ . but, here, the exception that proves the rule answers your question: in the case of the RH derailleur, we can see that there are in fact people who bought that, and the total cost, factoring in that you have to get your frame modified, is comparable to an electronic 12 speed.
but I doubt a mass-produced 8 speed group that is based on established, boring technology would cost anywhere near 12 speed electronic. The price is as much about maintaining an aura of exclusivity in a particular market segment as it is about how much production cost, so they would always cost more, I suspect.
but I doubt a mass-produced 8 speed group that is based on established, boring technology would cost anywhere near 12 speed electronic. The price is as much about maintaining an aura of exclusivity in a particular market segment as it is about how much production cost, so they would always cost more, I suspect.
Sorry just in case anyone here is a super fan. No maliciousness toward you intended.
Likes For Yan:
#11
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 15,094
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6255 Post(s)
Liked 4,857 Times
in
3,347 Posts
I'm not sure i entirely understand your point, but one inherent feature is fault tolerance because there is just so much more space. You don't have to add anything, its selling point is already there. So just as they are (Or were), they can handle being out of adjustment better, misalignment, gunk and mud.
If i were a marketeer, i would advertise the new 8 speed goupset as the adventure groupset for independent minded adventurous adventurers who adventure far from the beaten path and require unprecedented levels of durability and performance in adverse, adventurous conditions.
I would then sell them a remake of an rd m951. Oh wait, that is basically what riv is doing with the om1, except they toned down the design. And it will sell out immediately.
If i were a marketeer, i would advertise the new 8 speed goupset as the adventure groupset for independent minded adventurous adventurers who adventure far from the beaten path and require unprecedented levels of durability and performance in adverse, adventurous conditions.
I would then sell them a remake of an rd m951. Oh wait, that is basically what riv is doing with the om1, except they toned down the design. And it will sell out immediately.
Likes For Iride01:
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,991
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26457 Post(s)
Liked 10,418 Times
in
7,233 Posts
I'm not sure i entirely understand your point, but one inherent feature is fault tolerance because there is just so much more space. You don't have to add anything, its selling point is already there. So just as they are (Or were), they can handle being out of adjustment better, misalignment, gunk and mud.
If i were a marketeer, i would advertise the new 8 speed goupset as the adventure groupset for independent minded adventurous adventurers who adventure far from the beaten path and require unprecedented levels of durability and performance in adverse, adventurous conditions.
I would then sell them a remake of an rd m951. Oh wait, that is basically what riv is doing with the om1, except they toned down the design. And it will sell out immediately.
If i were a marketeer, i would advertise the new 8 speed goupset as the adventure groupset for independent minded adventurous adventurers who adventure far from the beaten path and require unprecedented levels of durability and performance in adverse, adventurous conditions.
I would then sell them a remake of an rd m951. Oh wait, that is basically what riv is doing with the om1, except they toned down the design. And it will sell out immediately.
Good luck to you, sir. For myself, I have actually reduced a couple of 9 cog rears to 8, just to simplify my life. But I have a lot of parts lying around, so replacing the shifters with 8 speed was not a big deal
Somewhere, in one of his books, Frank Berto voiced this opinion, that 8 was about as far as you needed to go to achieve optimal gearing. It is true that he was not speaking about racing. But neither are most of us in general cycling.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,831
Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1951 Post(s)
Liked 2,189 Times
in
1,333 Posts
When talking speeds, it revolves around indexing. Shimano was able to pass everyone else because of their Centeron guide pulley. It basically removed the issues with imperfection.
As speeds increased and cogs got closer together that extra slop was a problem and RD needed to be more precise. With that precision comes a more finicky setup, not in the drivetrain per se, but in alignment. An obviously bent hanger will be an issue for any drivetrain, but it is less tolerant of minor bumps.
Depending on the era, there are those that point to 9 speed as the best. Well less Rapid Rise, which I think has a following in some circles. 8 was relatively short, but 9 had a good run, especially mtb’s. My choice would be 9 as an all around no brainer drivetrain. Dura Ace 7700 is often cited as one of the best ever. Less the spider triple, which it never should have had, and the somewhat misunderstood BB.
As ranges have increased, more speeds are necessary just to make a bike rideable, especially with the demise of the triple. But on more traditional ranges it is difficult to say what advantage there is other than tweaking performance.
John
As speeds increased and cogs got closer together that extra slop was a problem and RD needed to be more precise. With that precision comes a more finicky setup, not in the drivetrain per se, but in alignment. An obviously bent hanger will be an issue for any drivetrain, but it is less tolerant of minor bumps.
Depending on the era, there are those that point to 9 speed as the best. Well less Rapid Rise, which I think has a following in some circles. 8 was relatively short, but 9 had a good run, especially mtb’s. My choice would be 9 as an all around no brainer drivetrain. Dura Ace 7700 is often cited as one of the best ever. Less the spider triple, which it never should have had, and the somewhat misunderstood BB.
As ranges have increased, more speeds are necessary just to make a bike rideable, especially with the demise of the triple. But on more traditional ranges it is difficult to say what advantage there is other than tweaking performance.
John
#14
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 44,969
Bikes: everywhere
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12843 Post(s)
Liked 7,767 Times
in
4,119 Posts
In the brifter realm, I found 8-speed Mirage to be a tad more finicky than 8-speed 105, but maybe that's not fair, I should probably compare Mirage to RSX, but I've only messed with 7-speed RSX, but I did find the RSX bombproof.
BITD, up to 9-speed the interchangeability of shimano road and MTB rear derailleurs was pretty nice, setting up 8-speed XT rear derailleur with 8-speed Ultegra brifters is nice, of course you still have to dig up a road front derailleur for drop-bar MTB or touring rig, but...
BITD, up to 9-speed the interchangeability of shimano road and MTB rear derailleurs was pretty nice, setting up 8-speed XT rear derailleur with 8-speed Ultegra brifters is nice, of course you still have to dig up a road front derailleur for drop-bar MTB or touring rig, but...
#15
Senior Member
12 speed is the latest and greatest and everything below is "obsolete" as far as bicycle marketing is concerned. Given how dirt cheap 11, 10 and 9 speed parts are in 2024, what exactly is the advantage of falling back so many generations to 8 speed?
Because 10 speed is less durable than 8 speed? Ok, sure, but 10 speed is CHEAP AS HELL. Replace those 10 speed parts when they wear out. Who cares.
Because 10 speed is less durable than 8 speed? Ok, sure, but 10 speed is CHEAP AS HELL. Replace those 10 speed parts when they wear out. Who cares.
#16
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 44,969
Bikes: everywhere
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12843 Post(s)
Liked 7,767 Times
in
4,119 Posts
Rapid Rise actuated by Sram Attack Gripshifts is one of my favorite flat-bar setups. Both shifters shift the same way for upshifts, the 10-position front shifter works pretty good with dropbar front derailleurs, and you can sweep across your entire cassette with one movement.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,997
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3978 Post(s)
Liked 7,425 Times
in
2,986 Posts
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,538
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3251 Post(s)
Liked 2,537 Times
in
1,520 Posts
In the brifter realm, I found 8-speed Mirage to be a tad more finicky than 8-speed 105, but maybe that's not fair, I should probably compare Mirage to RSX, but I've only messed with 7-speed RSX, but I did find the RSX bombproof.
BITD, up to 9-speed the interchangeability of shimano road and MTB rear derailleurs was pretty nice, setting up 8-speed XT rear derailleur with 8-speed Ultegra brifters is nice, of course you still have to dig up a road front derailleur for drop-bar MTB or touring rig, but...
BITD, up to 9-speed the interchangeability of shimano road and MTB rear derailleurs was pretty nice, setting up 8-speed XT rear derailleur with 8-speed Ultegra brifters is nice, of course you still have to dig up a road front derailleur for drop-bar MTB or touring rig, but...
Also, these days 5-8 speeds all use the same chain. What's not to like. If you're a triple rider like me, no need to go above 8 or 9. In fact, one of my bikes is 3 x 7 with a 12-28 on back. 2 steps all the way till the 18. 3 to the 24, then the 28 cog.
Likes For seypat:
#19
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 44,969
Bikes: everywhere
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12843 Post(s)
Liked 7,767 Times
in
4,119 Posts
Seems like the hardest part about running 8 speed drop bar stuff is finding replacement hoods. Seems like it's easier to find hardly used shifters than fresh hoods.
I kinda wonder what the guys in the video were talking about exactly. Sram/Campy/Shimano comparo is tricky as I don't think Sram ever did drop-bar 8-speed. Campy did 8-speed flatbar stuff but it was pretty darn rare.
I kinda wonder what the guys in the video were talking about exactly. Sram/Campy/Shimano comparo is tricky as I don't think Sram ever did drop-bar 8-speed. Campy did 8-speed flatbar stuff but it was pretty darn rare.
#20
cowboy, steel horse, etc
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 44,969
Bikes: everywhere
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12843 Post(s)
Liked 7,767 Times
in
4,119 Posts
I've never tried MS dropbar shifters but I have an MS 11-sp flatbar shifter, the price was nice but it only has a one-direction downshift lever. Upon riding it I was surprised how much I missed the bi-directional upshift lever on Shimano 11-sp.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,538
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3251 Post(s)
Liked 2,537 Times
in
1,520 Posts
And before someone comes on and says, "why would you want a triple when you can get the same range out of a 1 or 2x?" If you need to get to either end of your range, there's less overall shifting with the 3X. With all those single cog steps in a 11/12/13 rear, you have to do a lot of shifting to get from one end of the range to the other. I do understand the clearance advantages with a 1X/tiny chainring on MTBs, but for me, on a roadie, no to 1x.
Likes For seypat:
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,538
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3251 Post(s)
Liked 2,537 Times
in
1,520 Posts
Yeah, I only use side-exit Shimano brifters. These days it's not too tough to find a barely ridden turn-of-the-century Trek with 105 or Ultegra triple 9-speed for quite cheap. It's a little bit of work to grab the shifters and rear derailleur then try to sell the frame, wheels, etc but you can often end up making a little bit of money on the deal.
I've never tried MS dropbar shifters but I have an MS 11-sp flatbar shifter, the price was nice but it only has a one-direction downshift lever. Upon riding it I was surprised how much I missed the bi-directional upshift lever on Shimano 11-sp.
I've never tried MS dropbar shifters but I have an MS 11-sp flatbar shifter, the price was nice but it only has a one-direction downshift lever. Upon riding it I was surprised how much I missed the bi-directional upshift lever on Shimano 11-sp.
Last edited by seypat; 02-27-24 at 12:01 PM.
#23
Must be symmetrical
That RH derailleur is the living proof of the fact that idiots are easily parted with their money. Actually the entire company, starting with the historic French name stolen by a modern American company that has nothing to do with France, just stinks of cringe worthy marketing snake oil. I get second hand cringe embarrassment just reading the stuff on their site. And in reality their tires are all made by Panaracer.
Sorry just in case anyone here is a super fan. No maliciousness toward you intended.
Sorry just in case anyone here is a super fan. No maliciousness toward you intended.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,997
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3978 Post(s)
Liked 7,425 Times
in
2,986 Posts
And before someone comes on and says, "why would you want a triple when you can get the same range out of a 1 or 2x?" If you need to get to either end of your range, there's less overall shifting with the 3X. With all those single cog steps in a 11/12/13 rear, you have to do a lot of shifting to get from one end of the range to the other.
1x13: 12 shifts
2x12: 12 shifts
2x11: 11 shifts
3x10: 11 shifts
Not much difference ...
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,831
Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1951 Post(s)
Liked 2,189 Times
in
1,333 Posts
Rapid Rise actuated by Sram Attack Gripshifts is one of my favorite flat-bar setups. Both shifters shift the same way for upshifts, the 10-position front shifter works pretty good with dropbar front derailleurs, and you can sweep across your entire cassette with one movement.
I ended up trying one on one of my bikes. I do like the single trigger paintball action in quickly dumping a cassette over the 3-3-3.
But what makes Rapid Rise Rapid Demise is the inability of the RD to react to must shift situations. When you have to get to the lowest cog, the RD spring is at its weakest point with the toughest shift and just can’t do it in a split second crank pause compared to pulling a cable (top normal) to get there. There might also be a slight lag in the shifter releasing the pawl compared with immediately pulling the cable. That I don’t know.
Given enough time/anticipation there isn’t an issue using them.
John
Last edited by 70sSanO; 02-27-24 at 12:08 PM.