Weightlifting Lifting And Endurance Cycling
#301
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Here's a better explanation of the point I think you were thinking of.
For some sports lifting is detrimental - like boxing.
For some sport lifting doesn't help.
For some sports lifting is pretty common (like football)...but it's still just a small component of what they do.
What they're trying to pretend is that guys like these guys:
Are going to go to the gym and have the same injury rate throwing 200lbs/400lbs on their back that these guys would have -
Football team warming up:
Another team warming up:
Another team practicing:
Just non-lifting warmups/workouts several days/week would greatly improve the injury rate for lifting. And that's before -
- Age, easier to avoid injury when you're younger.
- Genetics - a well funded / serious sports team is only going to have the people with good genetics for athletics.
- Other issues with self-reporting and trying to discern a conclusion from a self-selection non-random group.
Last edited by PaulRivers; 11-30-18 at 09:07 PM.
#302
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- Coaches for the kind of sports teams who have a central training facility and report injuries to a central authority are the kind of teams who only have people with very good genetics/etc on them. Bad genetics for sports? You're not on the team? Mediocre genetics for sports? You're not on the team. Mobility issues that make you slower? You're not on the team. The coach of the team has already filtered out the average people so the only people still on the team have good genetics and are in good shape - you're only looking at a small group of people who are both inherently good at athletics and have been training for them.
I have to give you credit for cramming a political level of manipulation in here.
- You clearly say "many" not "all" yet you argue as if it's "all". Why don't the other ones doing big heavy lifts? Maybe because the risk is much higher for them than the reward. You're back to "someone jumped out of an airplane and survived so it's safe for everyone" level of claim.
- You clearly say "many" not "all" yet you argue as if it's "all". Why don't the other ones doing big heavy lifts? Maybe because the risk is much higher for them than the reward. You're back to "someone jumped out of an airplane and survived so it's safe for everyone" level of claim.
when in reality serious athletes are in an entirely different position - younger, in the best shape of their lives, likely a professional training them (someone who actually knows how to train "boringly" and more safely not someone following the absurdly bad lifting advice on the internet), good genetics for athletic stuff as if they didn't have that they would be on the team, etc etc etc.
But I didn't say no one can do squats, I said if you are the situation I've seen people be in - late 20's or older, working an office job for years where you're sitting, and getting advice on lifting from poor sources like the internet - then if you do heavy complex lifts my experience is you'll probably get seriously injured following that pattern.
Same as before but you know that's not an argument against what I was actually saying. Gyms will "allow" you do to lots of things they're not liable for. Try hiring a personal trainer at the gym though, and suddenly you'll find that they're heavily steering you away from the free weights and trying to avoid you doing heavy lifts like squats, deadlifts, and bench press partly because they know the injury rate is higher with those and face more liability.
Do keep in mind: by your own admission, your gym experience is far less than mine.
I would bet most of the people doing that have suffered serious injuries. I've only met a few people who do things like that but they always seem to have a surgery story etc. And those are the ones I meet...if someone got seriously messed up I probably wouldn't meet them because they can't go out or at least can't do the physical activities I meet them at.
What I originally said was that no one is doing studies on people of varying ages, fitness levels, and backgrounds and their injury rate so there's not really any objective or scientific data on what the injury rate is to refer to. And after all this rubbish from you, that is still true. We don't have data on it above personal experience level.
From what I learned later, the people who actually train people, face liability for injuring them, and know what they're doing - would generally never train people this way. Some of them don't like squats. Some of them do like squats but wouldn't just throw people under a heavy bar with near their max weight right away. I learned that most of the online advice is driven by sounding cool to people who don't really know what they're doing, without regard to effectiveness or safety, and you end up things being pushed that are mostly the opposite of what people who know what they're doing would do. (For example most online programs don't mention warming up which is critical, most online programs push excessive lower body work on people who's only goal is to look good which is absurd, most online programs push are just like "just jump into the gym near your max weight" whereas pro's do a lot of "boring" work with no or minimal weight to get peoples bodies used to lifting....the list goes on and on, most online advice centers entirely around cutting out anything that sounds boring or unexciting without any regard to whether it's a good idea.)
I highly recommend that anyone who's in the same age/background/etc that I described be aware that there are risks to lifting. And if you're lifting via bad advice (much of popular online stuff about it) those risks are higher. People can make their own decisions on what level of risk they want to take, but not if they're being fed bad advice about those risks, and bad advice about how to decrease their risks.
Ultimately it comes down to this. You say lifting weights is really dangerous based on your experience and that of a couple of people you know. I say the risk involved is fairly low based on a scientific review of 9 separate studies of injury rates, over a decade of personal involvement in the field, friendships with dozens of competitive lifters, the fact that athletes are willing to risk their extremely valuable careers to lift in the offseason, the fact that many coaches recommend squats and other heavy compound lifts and the simple fact that gyms manage to stay in business despite allowing this "dangerous activity" to continue.
It's pretty clear which side has the preponderance of evidence.
#303
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@OBoile, you have the patience of a saint.
CDC, NIH, and pretty much everyone else recommends that everybody who can should get 150 minutes of cardiovascular exercise and 2 resistance training sessions per week.
CDC, NIH, and pretty much everyone else recommends that everybody who can should get 150 minutes of cardiovascular exercise and 2 resistance training sessions per week.
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@OBoile, you have the patience of a saint.
CDC, NIH, and pretty much everyone else recommends that everybody who can should get 150 minutes of cardiovascular exercise and 2 resistance training sessions per week.
CDC, NIH, and pretty much everyone else recommends that everybody who can should get 150 minutes of cardiovascular exercise and 2 resistance training sessions per week.
It's a slow work week for me. I'll probably give up soon. It's clear that nothing is going to change that guy's mind.
Edit to add: if you think this is bad, you should see the kinds of things they say about cycling on weight lifting forms. It will wreck your back, wreck your knees, ruin all your "gains" and make you impotent. That is, if you are lucking enough to not get hit by a car.
Last edited by OBoile; 11-30-18 at 10:16 PM.
#306
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I can personally attest that cycling doesn't make you impotent.
#309
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"Quality assessment - the results of the quality assessment are presented in table 3.One study was considered to be of ‘good’ quality.20 This was the only study that could answer question nine of the assessment tool ‘Were the exposure measures (independent variables) clearly defined, valid, reliable, and implemented consistently across all study participants?’. Four studies were considered to be of ‘fair’10 ,18 ,19 ,21 and four were of ‘poor’ quality... Since no study identified the possible risk factors, most studies were of retrospective design and generally of ‘poor’ or ‘fair’ quality; the information received from this systematic review is insufficient to address the potential for prevention. Future studies are needed to describe the specific injury types and risk factors for injuries in weightlifting and powerlifting."
This is what I was saying:
1. Tell people lifting safe and healthy.
2. People get hurt.
3. Attack anyone who talks about getting trying to silence them.
That you're attacking with exactly same tactics and the anti-vaccine crowd used...I don't even know what I could add to that.
Edit: No, wait, I stand corrected, I can. I think of the most annoying awful people I've ever had to spend time around in real life. Then I imagine them giving out advice, someone following their advice and it not working and making things worse, then them throwing a whole fit about how it wasn't their fault and they didn't say it and it definitely didn't happen. Now I can see it. You're basically Dolores Umbridge:
There we go, now it makes sense.
Last edited by PaulRivers; 12-01-18 at 03:04 AM.
#312
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Well I've done six weight lifting workouts and haven't managed to hurt myself yet. I started out just doings reps with the bar and a more experienced lifter (my gf) watching my form to make sure it's on point. I've hurt myself cycling a few times in the last few years... knee issues and achilles issues. I haven't felt any problems in those parts so far with my lifting and, aside from some minor doms, I feel better already. I'm working on doing bench press, overhead press, deadlifts and squats; along with chinups and some rows for now. I will keep things pretty simple for the next 2 months and then look into branching out with more accessory work. Aside from riding bikes my work sometimes involves a lot of heavy lifting and I need to keep strong all year so it's unlikely I'm gonna give it up... I really enjoy lifting even though I'm super-new to it. Different kind of feeling after doing a challenging set. I also ride mostly long distance stuff so I am not really worried about maximum power output... when I was fatter I had no problems finishing 600k and even a 1200k ride so I don't really see any downside to adding some weight training to my life.
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