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New Landshark Tandem with WAY too much Flex?!

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New Landshark Tandem with WAY too much Flex?!

Old 07-25-18, 04:22 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by 124Spider
Exactly! If I were in the market for a high-end tandem, Landshark/Tandem East would not be on the list until I knew what happened here. I suspect it's something simple, but we are left to speculate.
I suspect it may not be something simple at all. A close friend had a dream Ti bike custom built for her. She did everything right - had several fit sessions with the builder's rep to get the specs perfect, test rode a stock bike provided her by the builder and was extremely happy with the ride and performance. But when her new bike came, it had a completely different feel. Her old steel bike was faster in testing. The builder, a major Ti builder, would do nothing for her. My suspicion after looking at the bike was that the builder had way underbuilt it, assuming a light woman couldn't produce her power. But she was one of those women who could pull a paceline at 25+. She couldn't even sell it - no one who tried it wanted it.

From the owner's description, the bike is neither dangerous nor unrideable. It just flexes so much that its performance is terrible. I've also ridden bikes like that. They feel like one is riding on extremely hot asphalt.

It's too bad they are silencing the owner. That's not helpful. LS should be sending someone to have a look and see what's going on. Shipping the bike back and refunding does not improve LS's ability to avoid this problem in the future. When one of our products had a problem, I had a look and made it right ASAP, factory warranty, whatever it cost us.
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Old 07-25-18, 05:51 PM
  #27  
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I'm surprised to hear this, and at the same time glad we bought a Calfee.

We're a relatively big (350lbs +/-) and relatively powerful team(combined 5 second power in the 2000 watt range).

We can flex our Co-Motion Robusta (oversized al with a lateral tube) in a sprint to the point its disconcerting for people following and occassionally to the point we have back off.

Conversely, our Calfee Dragonfly, with the extra stiff top tube option, is rock solid at any speed.

Before this thread, I would have guessed that the Landshark would have been more like the later than the former.

Given that the Landshark we're discussing is substantially heavier than our Calfee, and less stiff, this is not a ringing Landshark endorsement.

I'd like to hear Landshark's take on this?
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Old 07-25-18, 05:55 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by 124Spider
Exactly! If I were in the market for a high-end tandem, Landshark/Tandem East would not be on the list until I knew what happened here. I suspect it's something simple, but we are left to speculate.
For me,
Tandems East would still be someone to work with. Sounds like they are taking care of their customer.
And I totally understand their desire to resolve things between the parties before it becomes viral on the internet.

As for Landshark, I think this becomes a deal breaker for larger, more powerful, more aggressive teams, until its addressed.
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Old 07-25-18, 06:06 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by woodcycl
Thanks to everyone for your replies and responses. I appreciate it. If you'd like to communicate more or inquire, please PM me. Otherwise:

** OP Update: Mel has asked me to cease all internet communication in regard to this topic. I didn't realize or think about a possible negative impact on anyone involved such as Landshark or Tandem's East. And, for my lack of consideration of this, I apologize. Mel has asked that I send back the tandem in full minus the wheelset and our money will be returned. So, everyone involved has been very professional and have done everything they can do to remedy the situation. We LOVE our Landshark tandem and actually I'm quite sad about the outcome. Wishing there was a way that we could all agree on to resolve 'our' unique experience on the bike in regard to flex. Thanks Mel and to John for working with us.

While it sounds to me that Tandems East has dealt with this appropriately, I don't think stopping internet communications on the issue at this point is the answer.

The high end tandem market is very small, and this forum is one major source of information for that market.

At this point we need to hear from Landshark. There are a number of issues: 1) what choices were made by the customer, or Landshark to make the bike lighter or more comfortable versus stiffer; 2) were their options to make the bike stiffer that the customer or Landshark opted not to do; 3) does this bike perform as it was intended, or is there a manufacturing or design flaw with this particular bike,, or 4) does this bike perform exactly as intended, but just isn't a match for this team's desires, expectations.

Landshark would be doing themselves, and the tandem community, a service by addressing these questions.
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Old 07-25-18, 06:54 PM
  #30  
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I don't know if Woodcycl, Landshark, or Tandem East thought that a "cone of silence" was a good idea. I just know that the absence of facts will unfairly affect opinions and buying decisions.
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Old 07-25-18, 07:00 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by mtseymour
I don't know if Woodcycl, Landshark, or Tandem East thought that a "cone of silence" was a good idea. I just know that the absence of facts will unfairly affect opinions and buying decisions.
I've got to think a big portion of the high end tandem market checks this forum before buying a Calfee, Landshark, Paketa (formerly) or a high end Santana or Co-Mo.

I know before we bought our Calfee there were a lot of people discussing Calfee builds.

I have to think that till addressed, this is a major limiter for Landshark.

It would be helpful if Landshark responded with their take on this, or at least a more general discussion of the stiffness of their frames, and the design options for their buildds relating to stiffness.
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Old 07-25-18, 07:48 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
It's too bad they are silencing the owner. That's not helpful. LS should be sending someone to have a look and see what's going on. Shipping the bike back and refunding does not improve LS's ability to avoid this problem in the future.
I'd think that getting the bike back into their own shop ASAP would be the quickest way for them to investigate the problem, determine if it's something unique to this frame or more general, and take steps to avoid a recurrence. Much better for them to do the investigation in their shop with appropriate test fixtures and measuring tools than at the buyer's location. And issuing a refund makes the buyers whole and allows them to purchase another bike so they can be riding while the investigation is taking place. I can't really think of any better way for TE and LS to resolve the situation.
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Old 07-26-18, 04:02 AM
  #33  
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I don't know why the OP would post about this at all on a public forum.
Surely the way forward would of been to try and resolve it first with the builder?
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Old 07-26-18, 05:40 AM
  #34  
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With respect to the thread starter I pull back from the discussion. He’s the one who takes a financial risk in the moment.
We others all have (hopefully good performing ;-) tandems. Since he and his business partners obviously found a way to deal with the current situation,
we shouldn’t be the ones to put that on risk again. Of course I’m curious too to find out what happened there. Technically.
But in the end Woodcycl ordered an individual bike. There seem to be not really a serial problem with some public interest.
So we should give them at least the chance to find out what finally failed. Design- or manufacturing wise.
I’m positive they’ll find a solution for him and learn from the mistakes.

So far and up to now I appreciated all of your ideas and comments and wish Woodcycl a good start with some new hot engine.

And stick to the color. Was my favorite ;-)
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Old 07-26-18, 01:00 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by woodcycl
Thanks to everyone for your replies and responses. I appreciate it. If you'd like to communicate more or inquire, please PM me. Otherwise:

** OP Update: Mel has asked me to cease all internet communication in regard to this topic. I didn't realize or think about a possible negative impact on anyone involved such as Landshark or Tandem's East. And, for my lack of consideration of this, I apologize. Mel has asked that I send back the tandem in full minus the wheelset and our money will be returned. So, everyone involved has been very professional and have done everything they can do to remedy the situation. We LOVE our Landshark tandem and actually I'm quite sad about the outcome. Wishing there was a way that we could all agree on to resolve 'our' unique experience on the bike in regard to flex. Thanks Mel and to John for working with us.
Not to get political here, but...

Here goes! If your tandem has a serious design or production flaw, you have EVERY RIGHT to express it here in this forum, as long as you are expressing the facts and observations honestly. Doing otherwise is furthering a cover-up for others. Please do not fall for this. Or did you have to sign a Bicycle End User Agreement when you purchased your bike, which precludes you from posting on internet forums? It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

It's amazing how Americans have had their Constitutional Rights eroded by "Binding Arbitration Clauses" and "End User Agreements" without much fuss. The Second Amendment? Oh, people will kill for this. But a right to a jury trial? Ho hum!

This American Life did a great story about sexual harassment at JFK airport a few months back.* The company providing airport security, Allied American Security I think it is, has a long history of systematic sexual harassment. But you won't know about it because of all the confidentiality agreements and cover ups. Basically, women have been abused on the job and they can't even report it. No one can learn what unspeakable acts have occurred under Allied American's "watch." "Security" my ass! Corporate America has gamed the system so they don't get held accountable for sexual harassment at work. You might take issue if your mother, sister, daughter or other relative works for this horrible company.

Anyway, share your honest experience. Don't cave into suppression. Otherwise, honest consumer reviews will eventually be illegal!

* https://www.thisamericanlife.org/647/transcript

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Old 07-26-18, 01:28 PM
  #36  
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I think that you are taking an agreement between a consumer, a manufacturer and a retailer and generalizing it into "what is wrong with this world".

I'm curious about what is going on with the bike in question but I doubt that the buyer was forced to take his concerns off-line. I have no right to know about the details.
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Old 07-26-18, 10:19 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Dean V
I don't know why the OP would post about this at all on a public forum.
Surely the way forward would of been to try and resolve it first with the builder?
This? 33 posts before we get to this wisdom? If I'd paid $15K for anything, the first and only person that would know about something seriously wrong with it would have been the dealer or manufacturer! Many posts ago I was going to offer the radical idea that there might not be one damn thing wrong with the tandem at all! Seriously. To date the only accounts of a serious defect in the tandem have been subjective ones. I'm sorry, if I built a $15k tandem and sold it to a client I'd want more than a video of the riders appearing to be less than rigidly coupled because their torso's are bobbing out of alignment! Is it remotely possible that this is due to some other cause than frame failure? I don't know, seems to me that if something that egregious were wrong with my bike I would FEEL it. I wouldn't need riding partners saying "dude, what's up with your ride?!" I'm not sure that the builder is obligated to do anything more than take the bike back and refund the customer in full. And having done just that, expecting that further comment or criticism from said customer will cease in the public sphere does not seem unreasonable.
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Old 07-27-18, 07:00 AM
  #38  
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Plus 1 on Leisestrum's comments. Let's put this in perspective. Neither Tandems East or Landshark are Fortune 500 companies. These are relatively small business people. Mel at Tandems East runs one of a small number of tandem bike shops in the USA. He is well regarded in the tandem bike community. Someone bought an expensive custom tandem they were not satisfied with. While it is possible the primary reason this thread was started was to get help troubleshooting the problem, it is also possible the primary reason was as leverage to pressure a refund. A full refund has been offered. That's a big hit to small business people. Beyond that, it is not practical to expect Tandems East to now engage in a public discussion about the cause of the problem. If it turns out to be user error, should they disparage the buyer publicly? Regarding Mel and Tandems East, they offered a refund. What else do we need to know about Tandems East and this situation? That seems fair. Regarding Landshark, if anyone is thinking about getting a custom frame made and has read this thread, you are free to ask Landshark and Tandems East what the cause of the problem (if there really is one) turned out to be. You can either accept or not accept their explanation. Based on experience talking to Mel at Tandems East and his many years dealing with tandems (including his own brand), I suspect Mel will get to the bottom of whether there is something wrong with the frame and if so, what it is. But, to expect Tandems East or Landshark, after a refund is given, to continue with a public forum on one purchaser's experience after a refund is given, seems impractical. Note that replies to this thread do not include other Landshark owners who report a similar problem. Now, if a number of Landshark owners report excessive frame sway, then that would be something that should be vetted in a public forum.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm
This? 33 posts before we get to this wisdom? If I'd paid $15K for anything, the first and only person that would know about something seriously wrong with it would have been the dealer or manufacturer! Many posts ago I was going to offer the radical idea that there might not be one damn thing wrong with the tandem at all! Seriously. To date the only accounts of a serious defect in the tandem have been subjective ones. I'm sorry, if I built a $15k tandem and sold it to a client I'd want more than a video of the riders appearing to be less than rigidly coupled because their torso's are bobbing out of alignment! Is it remotely possible that this is due to some other cause than frame failure? I don't know, seems to me that if something that egregious were wrong with my bike I would FEEL it. I wouldn't need riding partners saying "dude, what's up with your ride?!" I'm not sure that the builder is obligated to do anything more than take the bike back and refund the customer in full. And having done just that, expecting that further comment or criticism from said customer will cease in the public sphere does not seem unreasonable.
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Old 07-27-18, 07:21 AM
  #39  
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Jethro00 and Leisesturm, do either one of you ride a tandem or own a tandem?
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Old 07-27-18, 08:19 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by DubT
Jethro00 and Leisesturm, do either one of you ride a tandem or own a tandem?
I am on tandem number 3, a daVinci. We have ridden tandem bikes for 30+ years and ride just about every day, including this morning.
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Old 07-27-18, 09:41 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by DubT
Jethro00 and Leisesturm, do either one of you ride a tandem or own a tandem?
Yeppers.
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Old 07-28-18, 05:24 AM
  #42  
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Obviously, the customer was unhappy, and by whatever means, customer service was utilized and an apparent refund was sent.

Speculation allows many theories to be inagined. The fact remains, the bike was flexing for the owners.

Myself, unless the owners were absolutely against this bike, I wonder why a simpler approach to customer satisfaction was not applied. Consider, if the buke had been shipped back to the manufacturer, complete, it could be ridden and evaluated. Simply ridden, no fancy test rigs to strain the frame for hard numbers related to flex. The frame could first be inspected for visual defects, possible, but unlikely, from a variety of happenings, including shipping.

If the frame were to be acceptable but simply too soft and flexible for the owners, it seems, if the owners were open to it, the frame could be altered easily to remedy their concerns and provide a truly custom bike built for them.

The frame being carbon fibre is fairly straightforward to deal with. If they buyers agreed to let the frame be modified slightly, and could visit the builder, complete with riding gear, stiffness could be added. Having the customers arrive, and be greated by a frame that had been sanded to remove paint, would allow, very easily, the builder to add temporary plies where needed to increase stiffness. Using fast set materials the flex could be corrected quickly, wirh notes of ply counts and orientations.

Once satisfied, tne owners hed home, the builder sands away the temporary plies, then does a more detailed addition of reinforcement plies, followed by blending and finish paint work.

Granted, there is added expense involved, but, it does have the possibility to bring exceptional customer service forward.

Then again, sometimes, nothing but a refund will make a customer happy, and some customers can never be pleased.
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Old 08-01-18, 03:42 PM
  #43  
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I'm an advocate for free-flowing information. If a customer has or had a legitimate issue with a product, it is not unreasonable to share his or her experience. And when spending $15k for a custom, high-end product, it's even more important to share information. It sounds like Tandems East did right by the customer. But this does nothing for the prospective buyer of a high-end carbon tandem, who is considering many brands, including Landshark. In fact, cutting off all postings and communication could potentially be at Landshark's disadvantage. Now this posting would not sway me in my purchase, but it would prompt me to inquire directly with Landshark about what happened. Any customer preparing to plunk down top dollar for a tandem would be expected to inquire.

It's analogous to a consumer considering the purchase of a Tesla, knowing that there have been reports of fires. It's simply an inquiry into a safety question. When the consumer is expected to exercise some amount of "buyer beware," it's incumbent on him or her to investigate.

I'm an advocate for Consumer Reports and the work they do. They take an objective position by refusing any and all advertising or influence by industry, producers, manufacturers or corporations. They rely solely on consumer feedback for objective reviews and performance history. This is exactly what drives innovation and quality in the marketplace. Without this check, the consumer has very few objective resources available. And relying on regulators is only becoming less and less of an option, as this service is under non-stop attack.

Plus, we have a Constitutionally protected right to free speech and a free press. As long as such speech doesn't cross over into libel or defamation, it's not only a good idea, it's the LAW!!!
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Old 08-02-18, 02:48 AM
  #44  
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While sympathizing with the OP, I think he should have, to be fair, first contacted Mel and or Landshark with his problem and given them an opportunity to respond before broadcasting to the world. Then, if he had not received a satisfactory response, he he could have complained on the forum. Now that he has opened this can of worms, some will be awaiting an explanation for the flex, which Landshark should provide in order to protect their name..
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Old 08-02-18, 05:59 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
Plus, we have a Constitutionally protected right to free speech and a free press. As long as such speech doesn't cross over into libel or defamation, it's not only a good idea, it's the LAW!!!
Uhm, i don't think Congress is trying to silence the OP.

Its debatable whether its good business for Tandems East or Landshark to request the OP not to discuss this publicly. However, it has nothing to do with the 1st amendment, which only applies to governmental actions to limit speech.
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Old 08-02-18, 06:39 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Artmo
While sympathizing with the OP, I think he should have, to be fair, first contacted Mel and or Landshark with his problem and given them an opportunity to respond before broadcasting to the world. Then, if he had not received a satisfactory response, he he could have complained on the forum. Now that he has opened this can of worms, some will be awaiting an explanation for the flex, which Landshark should provide in order to protect their name..
I believe that he did contact at least Tandems East about the problem, he had the shifting problem and the flex problem.

I would like like to know if there is a solution to the problem. I would be really disappointed if having gone through the process of ordering a new very expensive tandem and not be happy with it. Then the resolution is to send it back for a refund. When we ordered our new tandem 7 years ago we did keep our old one until the new one arrived. If the OP did that then they can still ride their old one, if they did not then they are going to go into some of the best riding time of the year without a bike to ride. That sucks in my opinion.
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Old 08-02-18, 06:59 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Uhm, i don't think Congress is trying to silence the OP.

Its debatable whether its good business for Tandems East or Landshark to request the OP not to discuss this publicly. However, it has nothing to do with the 1st amendment, which only applies to governmental actions to limit speech.
Agreed. I too appreciate Consumer Reports and the work they do but this has nothing to do with free speech. The OP has every right to say what he wants, it just appears that he has chosen not to. The government (thankfully) is not a party to this dispute.

Please, in this instance, a problem with a bike has nothing to do with "the world is going to hell" and the consumer choosing to end his public airing has nothing to do with free speech.
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Old 08-02-18, 07:05 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Uhm, i don't think Congress is trying to silence the OP.

Its debatable whether its good business for Tandems East or Landshark to request the OP not to discuss this publicly. However, it has nothing to do with the 1st amendment, which only applies to governmental actions to limit speech.
If you think it requires Congressional action to qualify as limiting free speech, you need to take a civics course!

As I posted earlier, corporations utilize cash settlements to sweep malfeasance under the rug. Freedom of speech is being curtailed on many fronts. The "fake news" accusations are just another symptom of how free speech is under attack. And the right to a free press is front and center.

Do you understand what binding arbitration means? This is in direct conflict with a person's right to jury trial. When you signed up for your internet service, or cable TV or that cellular phone, you most certainly waived that right. Have you heard any protests? Nope.

And End User agreements are filled with freedom-limiting language designed to dupe the consumer into forfeiting rights.

This is indeed a free speech issue whether or not you care to recognize it.
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Old 08-03-18, 02:20 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by DubT
I believe that he did contact at least Tandems East about the problem, he had the shifting problem and the flex problem.


He mentions LBS and then later, Mel, so it's not clear to me that LBS=Mel.
In any case, the OP didn't handle this problem appropriately, free speech or no free speech blah, blah
By implication, Tandems East and Landshark were maligned on this forum before being given the chance to rectify the problem, so Mel had every right to ask the OP to desist from further public discussion.
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Old 08-03-18, 11:44 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Artmo
He mentions LBS and then later, Mel, so it's not clear to me that LBS=Mel.
In any case, the OP didn't handle this problem appropriately, free speech or no free speech blah, blah
By implication, Tandems East and Landshark were maligned on this forum before being given the chance to rectify the problem, so Mel had every right to ask the OP to desist from further public discussion.
I don't have any stake in this, other than a new tandem rider who may one day want to buy another, lighter, tandem.

I disagree with your assertion that OP was inappropriate to post here; with all the expertise here, OP could expect some useful responses, and he got them. He wasn't trashing anyone; he was trying to solve a $15,000 problem. Do keep in mind that seller had been aware of the issues for some time prior to OP's thread, and had not yet either fixed the ongoing problems, or refunded the money. OP did exactly the right thing.

Of course Mel (whoever he is) had a right to ask OP not to talk in the forum about this. The point is that Landmark (and, to an extent, TE) don't do themselves any favor by going dark. They would be better served by posting to the effect that they have refunded purchaser's money, they are looking into the issues with the bike, and they are committed to figuring out what (if anything) was wrong with the bike, and explaining here what they found.

As a matter of simple economic good sense, nobody who has read this thread (a significant portion of the high-end tandem market, I suspect) would want to buy a Landshark CF tandem after reading this thread. Is that really the way Landshark (and TE) want to leave this?
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