Choke 

The Campy 10sp/pre-2016 11sp holders take the Race Pro. There are also pre-2000 Campy holders which take a different pad; SwissStop doesn't list them. AFAIK the 10sp/pre-2016 pads were the same for all groups. If you look here you can see the difference in the shapes of the pads. I would guess that the pre-2000 holders can be replaced with the post 2k ones, though I can't be certain since I've never had a brake with the pre-2k holders.

The Flash Pro is for Shimano style holders. The Full Flash Pro (and other brand Shimano style holders) should work with your Athena calipers and with other vintage calipers....figure 8sp and earlier. I have installed that style holder on older Campy Record & Chorus, Zeus and Universal calipers. The exception is Delta brakes; they have a holder that is different from other Campy models and a pre-2016 Campy holder fits on Deltas.

It's my understanding the the 2016+ Campy holders take a Shimano compatible pad, though I have no experience with them.

Re: the blue vs. black, I liked the feel of the black better. Of course that was with my rim and brake combination so it could change for a different setup.

tNuvolari

So I just won a pretty nice Ebay auction for a Ciamillo brake for very cheap. The only problem is the caliper is a rear but I'm assuming all I need to do is change out the mounting post to a longer post for the front forks. Or possibly source a complete front pivot bolt/post. Please correct me if I'm dead wrong on this assumption.
Anyway, kind of excited as I liked these brakes but wasn't prepared to spend the usual $130-180 for a complete set. And all I really need is the front, I think so it was a worthwhile risk and purchase. Got it for $37.00 so couldn't resist.
Yeah I know, it doesn't match but I'm not too worried as I like both designs so who says brakes have to match!

Oh, and above I read that someone said that if you can lock your brakes, then why would you need anything stronger. This is also a common response in the sports car world (or used to be as now great brakes in cars is no big deal.) However, there is much more at work in braking. And while car brakes have a much greater need to dissipate massive amounts of heat which bike brakes don't, there is still an advantage to "overbrake" any moving vehicle for safety and feel (modulation.) I also like vintage audio and I've noticed a similar if unrelated aspect in amp power: it's always nice to have a ton of extra power in an amp, even when listening at lower volumes. Something about the amp barely straining seems to make the music sound better. Of course, there will be less distortion at a lower volume but now I'm really getting into unrelated theory in comparison to braking.
Feel free to ad your own random and unsubstantiated comparisons....



Ok, and some Ciamillo porn, my newly acquired caliper:

63rickert

I brake almost exclusively from the hoods and have done so since 1967. Back then I was 6’1” and 130 pounds and was not doing anything by main strength. As for emergency braking it takes time to get down to drops, brake from top and have brakes immediately. My hands are still not particularly strong. They are slightly large. Nothing remarkable, but above average. With smaller hands there is much less leverage available. With smaller hands it would take lots more strength to brake from above. With smaller hands most are going to want to brake from drops. The range of hand size is significant.

Racing parts are made for racers. The notion of making pseudo race parts for pseudo racers is more recent. What doesn’t change is parts manufacturers do not want to kill the customer base. Neither do they want lawsuits or bad publicity. With Campagnolo you can be sure the makers were riding those parts themselves, and sending their own children out to race with those parts.

Modern dual pivots give instant gratification. If that is the standard then yes, older brakes don’t measure up. If all you want to do is stop, any brake does that. If it doesn’t, review every element of brake setup. Usually somewhere in the cabling.

63rickert

Oops. Losing memory. 1967 would have been first Campy bike. Braking from hoods since 1965 on the Schwinn Continental. And then it would have been 6’1” and 123 pounds, so no particular strength at all.

sheddle

picturing a line of bruised kids at an Italian ER shortly after the delta brakes were released


(anyway the upshot is that I ride more in the drops on vintage bikes, which is more practical with the old style "fistful of post" fit (stem roughly even with the saddle rails) so it's kind of a wash)
​​​​

ofajen

Yeah, I’m still using the same Superbe caliper brakes I bought about forty years ago, and they still stop well enough to be dangerous.

When I’ve had issues where they felt hard to use or didn’t stop as well, it was pretty much always excess drag from the housing end right by the lever due to me not shaping and squaring the end after cutting to length. And/or damage to the cable at that point due to the housing defect.

The other issue that sometimes comes up is a rear rim that’s gotten beaten up a bit and is out of true.

Otto

tNuvolari

Can anyone tell from the pics of the Ciamillo caliper what pads it has? Those pads that come on it look pretty bad so I want to try some swissstops but I don't know if those holders are Shimano or Campy. I know Ciamillo has offered both options in the past so it could be either.

If you know, please let me know and how to tell the difference.

Thanks.

masi61

i can’t help you on the holder... do you have some Shimano spec pads you can try? If they don’t fit you know you’ve got Campy spec holders.

As for your question of running the rear on the front - You should be able to just get an extra long recessed brake bolt to extend all the way from the back of the recess in the fork crown to that little hub of a brake bolt. Shimano brakes often come with 3 different size brake bolts in the box. From the photo of the Ciamillo brake I see where there are generous flats for a thin brake centering wrench (I have the Park Tools one which comes in really handy when you need it - I want to say it is 13mm across those flats).

SJX426 

I have mostly single pivot or CP brakes on my bikes. For the build of the De Rosa (1988ish), I decided to step a little further to the present day by going 10V. My intent was to use more period approach but a pair of 10 speed Record/Ambrosia wheels showed up for under $140 with a Campy cassette. This was a back pocket painful decision. Regardless, black or silver were the drivers for the brakes with the preference for black.

I found these without really know what they are, still really don't know the group set they go with 10, 11, 12? Poor picture.
P1030199, on Flickr

A contributor on the build thread suggested that the pads were for carbon rims. They don't brake like they were made for carbon. Incredible stopping performance. The pads are Zipp Speed Weaponry.
P1030200, on Flickr

I don't know much about them either as Zipp sells a pad that is different color and description. The holders don't look like Campagnolo originals either, based on service documentation.
Best braking on any of the livery.\
P1030592, on Flickr

BTW, 2nd gen Ergos are a huge improvement on the 1st gen.

noglider 

I'm 59 years old, and I'm still crazy enough to be working on my descending skills. I can do that now that I'm living full time upstate where we have lots of hills. On Friday, I hit a lifetime record for high speed, 47.5 mph (76 kph). I did this with my old Campagnolo Record single pivot calipers with the old fin-cooled Matthauser pads I've had since new in (I guess) the 70s. They work well enough for me but most people would not be happy with them. I would also like modern dual pivots but I'm keeping these for now. That descend immediately followed my ascent where I also hit a personal record on that particular hill, so it was a good day.

My ride on Friday

tNuvolari

Wow, good work! I've only hit just over 30mph within LA limits but even that was scary as a couple of cars were about to pull out from cross streets and I remember thinking if they do, I'm dead! I can't imagine 48! I'm sure the environment has a lot to do with the speed sensation but still, that's impressive. I did hit 29.7 the other day on a very slight downhill section of Santa Monica Blvd with no side streets and a bike lane. That didn't feel very fast although I was racing a semi truck and he couldn't catch me for a second until i topped out. Always fun to leave cars behind!


Yes, I've been following your thread as we were both doing a similar rebuild with the 10 speed upgrades.

I have the 2nd gen Ergos and while I love them and they are better than my old levers (90's Athena,) they aren't night and day difference.

No, the only pads I have are the Athena which fit nothing except old school brakes. Do all Shimano pads have the securing screw? Probably not as that would be too easy. So am I correct to assume that I could use either Campy or Shimano on the Ciamillo calipers if I get the entire assembly with the carrier?

Oh, and thanks for the recessed bolt info; that would be simpler, provided I can find one. I guess I'll have to wait until I have them in hand; they haven't shipped yet!

noglider 

@tNuvolari, the roads here are quiet, and there are long stretches with no intersections. There are also no shoulders, so I take the entire lane most of the time. I'm lucky to have these conditions, especially since most of the drivers are considerate. When we're not having a pandemic, I live on weekdays in New York City, and I know a lot about cycling where drivers are not considerate.

tNuvolari

I received my Ciamillo caliper. Pretty cool with a strange cam action which sort of makes it dual pivot although not in the traditional way. Also, the cam is a replaceable part, it's round and simply sits in a socket. Not sure if it's supposed to rotate in use or if you just rotate it once in awhile to lessen wear but mine is dirty and not lubricated so it's definitely not freely rotating. Lubrication seems rather important on the cam, moreso than on camless brakes, i.e. all other brakes.
The caliper is extremely light. It weighs only 85 grams with the worn pads.

The pads are toast so that's my first action. They are 11mm x 53mm and I've attached some pics so can anyone identify if these need Campy or Shimano replacement pads? I have no modern pads to try.

And then I'm wondering if the mounting bolt just threads into the caliper spring mounting section? Can I remove it and replace with a longer thread for front mounting? I know it's removable but wondering if it's crazy loctighted in there or if it's a simple double nut removal scheme. That seems too easy.
A longer recessed bolt would work except I can only find them in 20 and 30mm and 20 is too short; 30 too long so I figure the simplest method is a longer thread which should be easily available....

Also, it seems that a huge part of firmer braking is a result of the new pad designs. On my older Athena brakes, the pads flex so much. You can literally see it when squeezing the lever; the pad will squeeze and crush and mushroom out whereas the newer pads are firmer, longer and have less depth so the crushable distance is much less.

Many thanks in advance....



New caliper, extremely light and more powerful.




Zero Gravity?!? Kind of a questionable name as brakes don't work without gravity.




The mounting threads which I hope to replace with a longer part to allow mounting on the front forks.
Also, you can see the cam here. The circular part slides out and is slightly loose in the socket although not loose enough to move freely in mine.




11mm x 53mm......
The mystery pads and holders.




They are very light, aluminum carriers with extra metal removed.



11mm x 53mm

tNuvolari

Couple new developments:

Of course, the double nut method seems to have nowhere near the strength needed to loosen the threaded post. Also, I tried to take the caliper apart by removing the hex bolt in the center of the caliper and that has no intention of breaking free. Are these loc-tighted in there? Or am I experiencing corrosion between the titanium hex nut and the aluminum caliper? I noticed this on the cable tightener where the titanium bolt would barely turn until I removed it and coated it with WD40. Anyway, I'm in danger of stripping the hex bolt so not sure how to go about removing it. I'll try some heat next and penetrant.

Any ideas on what's going on with either issue? Unless it's all one piece, from the front hex through the calipers and out the back to the mounting threads? I really doubt this but who knows?

And I'm pretty sure the pads are Campy compatible. They are actually Kool Stops and judging from comparisons with pads on the Kool Stop site, they definitely seem like the Campy 2000 pads they offer.

And then finally, and just in time to confuse everything I'm doing here, I removed one of my Athena pads to see if the newer Ciamillo/Campy pads/holders would fit on my old Athenas and it seems that they do. But then I noticed that my salmon Kool Stops appeared to only be worn down on about 40% of the pad. So I filed it down to flatten the pad and provide a rough, fresh surface to hopefully contact the rim. Well, now my braking is much improved. The brakes actually grab the rims and there is definitely a lot more force to the braking. And the modulation and effort are much improved. I'm going to check the other pad and see how good I can get these old Athenas to brake!
I could also switch to the newer Campy pad design. With the longer and thinner pads, I think that would provide an added bonus.

So, we'll see what happens. I still want to try this Ciamillo caliper but I guess it's a bigger job to convert it to a front mount than I thought it would be so that'll need some time.

Kabuki12

These are the best brakes of all my bikes, including Campy SR/NR, Wienman Carrera, Mafac Racer, or Campy GS. I got the original Campy brakes with this bike but I just love these brakes. I really think it is the Modolo pads . I live up on a hill that is quite steep and there are two stop signs on the way down. I do not blow through stop signs and these stop without having to ride the brakes all the way down. I just coast and grab the aero levers and the bike stops!

tNuvolari

So I bought SwissStop BXP Blue pads for my Ciamillo caliper but I still can't get the bolt or the threaded post off of the Ciamillo! So I put the SwissStop and newer, larger pads on my Athena front caliper and, guess what? It's pretty good now! Granted, the Kool Stop pads were much better once I filed them down and had the whole pad engaging the rim but the new SwissStop have the much newer design of the longer and thinner pad to assist the braking now so it's not so much a pad compound thing. However, the SwissStop pads do have a very nice feel and are easy to modulate and they are much more direct although that may be completely due to the pad size and shape.
Anyway, I like the brakes now and they seem quite good now if not exactly the overly powerful status I was going for. I still want to try this Ciamillo but I really don't know how to get it apart. Not sure why the front Allen head bolt won't come loose.....

tNuvolari

Well, found out the the hidden secret of the Ciamillo calipers.....



The caliper mounting and assembly screw is a single titanium piece!


So the entire threaded mounting bolt is one piece with the front assembly piece! I wondered if it was when I couldn't get it apart but then thought, no, it can't be....but it is! Ok, finally apart but now what? I'll just jet to my local hardware store and source a longer titanium front caliper bolt. This is strictly a Ciamillo piece but not sure how easy it is to get parts from them....
To be continued.

ShannonM

Add one name to the weirdos-who-don't-care-for-dual-pivots list. I prefer a bit of lever effort in my brakes. Dual pivots have a hardness-of-squeeze-to-braking-force relationship that I never liked, even after many years of having them. This is a thing that I guess I'm just weirdly sensitive to, but it's been consistent across all my bicycles, plus motorcycles and cars. I just don't like really light-action brakes.

The weirdest for this were the Magura HS-33 hydraulic rim brakes I had on my mountain bike. With those, how hard you squeeze the lever doesn't matter at all, it's how far the lever moves that controls the modulation. Took me forever to get used to them... I had to retrain my hands in order to get the best out of them. (Which was phenomenal, but man were they weird.)

--Shannon

tNuvolari

Ok, the mystery of the squishy and stretching brake lever has been solved. Apparently, the casing outer coating was being pushed back inside the brake lever where it goes into the built in ferrule. Also, the levers built in ferrule is metal so there shouldn't be worries of it breaking or allowing the casing to break through.
Good to know I'm not crazy and I was feeling the lever travel lengthen when I pulled hard on the lever. Eventually it settled and now all is good.

Also, the brakes now feel pretty good. I had to stop quickly due to a car pulling out in front of me and the brakes hauled me down just as they should. I do have to squeeze rather hard but when I do, the bike stops quickly.
Still, I will try this Ciamillo if I can ever figure out how to mount it in front. I contacted the guy and no front mounting bolt is available from him and due to the 2 different size threads, it won't be something I'll likely come across anywhere. So the only choice is a long recessed bolt but I'm not sure if the fork allows a recessed bolt to go far enough to meet the threads. I seem to remember that is doesn't but I'll check when I can.
Anyone have any other ideas of how to mount it? I'll also see if I can use the mounting bolt from my Athena and attached the Ciamillo but due to the larger front thread of the Ciamillo, I don't think that will work.


Inside Ergo lever and you can see how the casing coating has been pushed back allowing the cable to slide into built-in ferrule in the lever which can be seen

ShannonM

It looks like the housing has eaten around the hole pretty badly... artifact of the photo, or real damage?

--Shannon

tNuvolari

No damage to the lever, it's just the built-in ferrule is too small for the outer plastic coating of the casing so at first it rests on the plastic coating until it is strained and then it pushes back the plastic until the metal casing gets to the end of the ferrule and then it stops. I guess the thing to do is cut away the plastic and make sure it fully seats.

ShannonM

Is there Campy-specific housing the way there are Campy-specific cables? The cut end of the housing should fit snugly into the ferule, liner and all, no? It's been a long time since I worked on an Ergobike... but weird brand-specific dimensions for common things are a curse of the bicycle industry. It just seems like there's something deeper that's wrong here.

--Shannon

tNuvolari

Well, it's all Campy parts so it should work. Well, I mean, it does now but seems like it should have fit better from the start. Or that's just another bit of undocumented Campy knowledge: You should remove outer plastic covering when fitting cables to brake levers. Now you know!

So, amazing bit of luck on the Ciamillo progress: I guess the dual threaded mounting bolt is common on Tektro & Shimano brakes. First I found a Tektro on Ebay but of course it was only lowly steel....the shame of it all, blaspemizing my Zero G's with plain steel? Well, if I must, I must....
Then, dah-dah, this appeared:



Titanium Mystery Bolt, Pseudo Wood Vinyl Background not included


https://www.ebay.com/itm/TITANIUM-Ti...g/292069461817


So with that on its way, I should be back to 100% Ciamillo glory (with no help from the Mr Ciamillo himself, thank you very much I mean you could have told me this was an often used bolt that I could then maybe possibly find but I guess I should wait until I see that it actually fits and works so hold this thought/rant!)

I could have also used a 30mm recessed brake nut but not sure if that is as strong of a solution. And none of my LBS's answered their phones so wasn't sure if they had them in stock. But this is the proper solution so there you go....

Well, as long as it fits both thread sizes and the length of all the different sections is correct etc....

tNuvolari

And so the Titanium Wonder Ebay Bolt was mailed and then lost at the drop off location and no more are on Ebay so I went with a 30mm recessed bolt which isn't the best solution. Fitted with the SwissStop blue pads, these really grab right from the start. They don't seem to have the same linear feel of the Athenas but that's to be expected with the cam action. I love how they grab immediately but I don't like how they go numb when I pull harder. The extra braking power is worth the deadness in feel though so I am happy. Of course, nothing is simple and apparently my bike needs longer reach calipers as even with the Athenas, the pads were at the longest reach and just barely on the rim with no misalignment. Well, with the Ciamillo, the pad is slightly over the edge of the rim. What's going on here? Why are these calipers barely fitting on my bike?


The Ciamillo caliper installed - Not a beauty!




But the the reach is too short, they just barely fit with slight overhang.




Tough to see but definitely should be a bit lower.

noglider 

As the pads wear, they will rub on the tire. The rubbing will heat up the tire and cause it to explode. You need longer brakes.