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Training with a power meter

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Training with a power meter

Old 04-10-20, 02:20 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
To expand on this in a more general way: ...
Maybe you should stop and understand the difference between force and power as well as how they relate to each other. Each pedal stroke could just as easily have constant force and slightly different speed as power jumps around.
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Old 04-10-20, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
I gather that the gray area is the proxy for altitude, but what are the dark and light green lines? Rising HR is a result of accumulated stress. Of course if you hold a power that's greater than what you could do for a long period, your HR climbs for a while. Unless you are riding at an unsustainable power, eventually HR will stabilize if you hold power steady, although over a long period HR will gradually edge up depending on conditioning and hydration. This is called decoupling, that is HR that doesn't reflect a steady power output. Conditioning decreases decoupling to quite a degree. Cadence always affects HR, higher cadence at the same power will show a higher HR and vice versa. Though even all that isn't totally true. Over longer periods, the length depending on conditioning, hydration, and fueling, HR may be lower at the same power levels compared with 3 or 8 or 15 hours ago, just from exhaustion. There's a lot of information in HR, more information density than power really, just not always the information one expects to see. I mean that power only tells you one thing. HR tells you many things.
the blue is cadence. the green is speed (which i should have suppressed since it was not relevant, or so i think).
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Old 04-10-20, 04:14 PM
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Steady power is really easy on the trainer. It's way harder out on the road. It's not that cadence is varying so much as it is that force is varying. We seem to have pretty good speed sensors in our legs. Micro variations in road grade and wind cause us to increase force in order to maintain speed and cadence. Possibly that is more evident in those of us who have practiced holding a steady pace. Riding a paceline, nothing is more frustrating than a lead rider who doesn't hold steady. I admit to being shocked at the power variations at a steady speed and cadence when I first went out with a PM, which was after weeks of roller work with that bike and PM.

I would also like to stress that everything that we see on our HRMs is relevant to training. The variations do take a lot more experience to interpret than does power, but that doesn't change their relevance. They only seem random if one doesn't understand what's going on.
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Old 04-10-20, 04:18 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
Maybe you should stop and understand the difference between force and power as well as how they relate to each other. Each pedal stroke could just as easily have constant force and slightly different speed as power jumps around.
We could describe this whole thing in terms of the movements of trillions of subatomic particles, but that wouldn't help anybody understand anything. Especially when a simple and accessible analogy gets the relevant points across.

But thanks for the very minor correction, it's a good point overall to remember force and cadence together make power and you can vary them both to get to the same place.
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Old 04-13-20, 03:32 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
To expand on this in a more general way:

Most people don't hold a steady power when they ride. That's why almost everyone prefers to see the avg over the last X seconds instead of just at that instant. It jumps around a lot. It's like you benched 100 lbs, then 120, then 97, then 20 for a second while you changed your position on the saddle sightly, then 140, etc. Except on a bike, it's like you're benching whatever is on the bar at that moment, but the plates don't have numbers do you don't know how much you're lifting. Each pedal stroke has a different amount of force. (Not usually huge differences.)
I've just started using a power meter in the last couple of weeks. Although it should have been obvious, I discovered this fact -- instantaneous power is constantly and quickly fluctuating. One of my Garmin Edge screens shows instant power and average power. How many of you find instant power a useful metric during the ride as opposed to, say, 3 second average? I want to learn how to better control and smooth out my power output. I think my choices for the data field are instantaneous, 3 second average, 10 second average, and 30 second average (which is obviously too long).

Separately, does anyone make use of Garmin's proprietary "Normalized Power" or "Intensity Factor" metrics?
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Old 04-13-20, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 70Degrees
I want to learn how to better control and smooth out my power output.
Why smooth out power? If you (like everyone) naturally fluctuates, what's to be gained by fighting it?
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Old 04-13-20, 05:39 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by 70Degrees
I've just started using a power meter in the last couple of weeks. Although it should have been obvious, I discovered this fact -- instantaneous power is constantly and quickly fluctuating. One of my Garmin Edge screens shows instant power and average power. How many of you find instant power a useful metric during the ride as opposed to, say, 3 second average? I want to learn how to better control and smooth out my power output. I think my choices for the data field are instantaneous, 3 second average, 10 second average, and 30 second average (which is obviously too long).Separately, does anyone make use of Garmin's proprietary "Normalized Power" or "Intensity Factor" metrics?
Most people choose 3 second power. Some like to have a page with multiple time frames. Useful for intervals. But if you have a newer Garmin, the power gauge is 3 second power.

NP and IF can be useful, NP is generally considered a better indicator of a ride for training purposes than avg power. IF is more like a backup singer. Probably NP and TSS are the more important ones. For what it's worth, these calcs are from Training Peaks, Garmin licenses them. Because they're generally considered to be a pretty good representation of different things. But all of those are for the entirety of a ride, a lot of people also find it useful to use the lap button to make data from a specific part of the ride easy to isolate. Example: when I do hill repeats, I ride to an appropriate hill, hit lap, ride up, hit lap, ride down, hit lap, rinse and repeat. Then when I'm looking at the ride data, I want to know things like whether I was able to keep hitting my power targets, or when I start seriously fading.

In Connect (web, not app) look at Reports > Cycling > Power Curve. Change it from 4 weeks to all. The graph is real useful, but scroll down below.
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Old 04-14-20, 01:03 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Steady power is really easy on the trainer. It's way harder out on the road. It's not that cadence is varying so much as it is that force is varying. We seem to have pretty good speed sensors in our legs. Micro variations in road grade and wind cause us to increase force in order to maintain speed and cadence. Possibly that is more evident in those of us who have practiced holding a steady pace. Riding a paceline, nothing is more frustrating than a lead rider who doesn't hold steady. I admit to being shocked at the power variations at a steady speed and cadence when I first went out with a PM, which was after weeks of roller work with that bike and PM.

I would also like to stress that everything that we see on our HRMs is relevant to training. The variations do take a lot more experience to interpret than does power, but that doesn't change their relevance. They only seem random if one doesn't understand what's going on.
That gives me quite some reassurance. I also just started with a power meter and still am shocked how much power varies. Especially also when it doesn't feel like it suddenly is 50W easier/harder, because you just keep going the same way.
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Old 04-14-20, 10:56 AM
  #34  
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No intention of hijacking the thread, but it seems silly to start a new one also related to power meters.

I just did my FTP test on my new Power Meter (the 20 min * 0.95 is scarily accurate, it would have come to 220, which is a bit too low, but that is not actually based on a 20 minute FTP test, but the 20 minute estimate from Strava's power curve, with Strava's own FTP estimate at 218. Which makes sense since all the riding I have done so far on the power meter was on the easier side, hence the slight underestimate).

But anyway, the question is, the average power came to 228 with NP (from Wahoo) at 234. Which one should I use as my FTP? Oh and I actually did exactly 1 hour (almost perfect, except they put a new traffic light up and I just hit the red on it, but otherwise nonstop for an hour).

And the next question is, what sort of expectations can I have, is it realistic to aim for 250-260 by the end of the summer?
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Old 04-14-20, 12:50 PM
  #35  
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ZHVelo

For most things, NP is a better indicator of overall effort than avg power. NP weights intense efforts more, to approximate how they're more taxing on the body. Generally does a pretty good job.

But for an FTP test, you use avg power, what you actually did.

The 95% of a 20 minute effort works well for some people and not for others, depending on your stamina, aka ability to resist fatigue.

Someone else can probably give you a better idea what you can expect for improvement with training.
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Old 04-14-20, 03:41 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by sdmc530
I will chime in...….

I am no elite athlete, not even close. I have a power meter and its been awesome. Been an awesome tool. I am still no athlete but I am a much stronger rider than I was before a PM. I can't see not having one now.

I can climb better now, and know when to go and when to whoa.
Knowing when to go and when to whoa actually is a very insightful accurate informative relevant summation of optimal performance ability.
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Old 05-01-20, 05:50 AM
  #37  
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I finally got my powermeter installed and connected to the Easton Cinch app on my phone. I can see the power for a few minutes until my phone screen shuts off, but that's it. What's the best way to collect the data and look at it? Is there software I need to buy or a subscription training site or something?
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Old 05-01-20, 06:10 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by kingston
I finally got my powermeter installed and connected to the Easton Cinch app on my phone. I can see the power for a few minutes until my phone screen shuts off, but that's it. What's the best way to collect the data and look at it? Is there software I need to buy or a subscription training site or something?
I use the Wahoo fitness app on Android. The screen does not shut off*. It has great post ride metrics itself, and uploads to most platforms (I personally upload to Strava). If you want very detailed analysis as well as tracking over time, yes, you probably do need to pay.

*If you turn down the brightness to a level where you can just make it out (obviously requires more brightness on sunny days) I find that my phone's battery lasts long enough easily, though in the long run I will get probably the Wahoo Bolt, maybe when it's on offer next.
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Old 05-01-20, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
I use the Wahoo fitness app on Android. The screen does not shut off*. It has great post ride metrics itself, and uploads to most platforms (I personally upload to Strava). If you want very detailed analysis as well as tracking over time, yes, you probably do need to pay.

*If you turn down the brightness to a level where you can just make it out (obviously requires more brightness on sunny days) I find that my phone's battery lasts long enough easily, though in the long run I will get probably the Wahoo Bolt, maybe when it's on offer next.
Thanks for the suggestions. I installed the app, and I already ordered a bolt, but it hasn't arrived yet. I'll probably give zwift a try. A lot of people seem to like that.
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Old 05-01-20, 11:11 AM
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Download Golden Cheetah. There's a hell of a learning curve, but it does everything, and it's free. You might still wind up paying for an online platform, but you'll have a better idea what you're willing to pay for after using GC a while.
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Old 05-01-20, 12:28 PM
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I installed Golden Cheetah on my computer and Wahoo Fitness on my phone. Still waiting for my bolt head-unit to arrive. In the meantime, I'm riding a 200k tomorrow with my trusty old etrex. If I synch the PM with wahoo fitness and record the ride, will I be able to import that into GC? I don't see any export option in the wahoo app.
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Old 05-01-20, 03:25 PM
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I don't know the Wahoo Fitness app. I believe it sounds to Strava from what people say here, and I think you can export the time from Strava into a format GC will understand. It might read from your app directly somehow.
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Old 05-02-20, 02:14 PM
  #43  
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Wahoo Fitness can export a .fit file which I imported into GC, but for there's no speed data for some reason. My average power was 144 which seems like it leaves a lot of room for improvement.

edit: Wahoo Fitness has a direct upload to Strava, so I did one of those, downloaded the .gpx from Strava, imported it to GC and the speed shows up. Seems weird. My bolt arrives on Monday, so hopefully that will be easier.

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Old 05-02-20, 10:01 PM
  #44  
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Check out the critical power chart.

You're going to find that avg power over most rides isn't as useful as your N minutes power. Or seconds of you're a sprinter.
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Old 05-05-20, 07:22 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Download Golden Cheetah. There's a hell of a learning curve, but it does everything, and it's free. You might still wind up paying for an online platform, but you'll have a better idea what you're willing to pay for after using GC a while.
Golden Cheetah is awesome. Thank you for the suggestion. It integrates with Strava so i can use that to synch workouts across devices. I can get free workouts from Trainerday (ERGdb) and either load those directly into GC for indoor workouts on my rollers or manually load them to the wahoo headunit via TrainingPeaks for outdoor workouts if I decide I ever want to do that. I'll fiddle around with this for a while and take an FTP test at some point. Just using 200 for now which probably isn't too far off. I don't see the need for a subscription service with this setup.

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Old 05-27-20, 08:40 AM
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Like Spelger, I recently got a smart trainer that measures power, but I don't have a power meter on any of my bikes (yet). I've been reading a lot trying to get up to speed, literally and figuratively.
  • This paper by Andrew Coggan is the precursor to his book and covers similar territory.
  • This page lists some of the formulas for normalized power, intensity factor, etc, which may help you get a better handle on what they mean (the blog it's from seems to be mothballed, but has more useful information on structured training).
I remember downloading Golden Cheetah about 4 years ago and being so confused by what I was seeing that I quit it and forgot about it for 4 years. I only understand about half of what is in there now. I think part of my confusion is that it's trying to represent different physiological models (Coggan, Skiba, etc) that sometimes use different names for similar concepts (like FTP and CP). Most of my studying has been focused on Coggan's model, so when I see TRIMP, I'm thinking "what the hell is TRIMP?". And in some cases, GC has renamed existing concepts because they're trademarked (!).

I'll echo the advice to be kind of conservative with the FTP test. One of the first things I did when I got my smart trainer was attempt a 20-minute test at an optimistic wattage. I burned out in 4 minutes. Recovered for a bit, lowered the wattage 20 W, and tried again. Made it 6 minutes. Oof. That was sobering. Waited a few more days and tried it again at a lower wattage still, and made it through. I've seen some webpages on how to get the highest results in your FTP test, but this seems wrong-headed. FTP is a training tool, not just something to brag about (especially if your FTP is like mine). The goal should be to get a realistic result, not the highest result.
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Old 05-27-20, 09:38 AM
  #47  
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I don't see the need to take an FTP test any time soon. TrainingPeaks sends me alerts when they think I should increase my FTP based on actual rides, which is good enough for my purposes. I bought a few used books from ebay including the Coggan and Allen book and there is plenty of supplemental info available with GC to explain what the numbers mean. So far, I like having a power meter much more than I thought I would.
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Old 05-27-20, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kingston
I don't see the need to take an FTP test any time soon. TrainingPeaks sends me alerts when they think I should increase my FTP based on actual rides, which is good enough for my purposes. I bought a few used books from ebay including the Coggan and Allen book and there is plenty of supplemental info available with GC to explain what the numbers mean. So far, I like having a power meter much more than I thought I would.
Yes, it does do that, Strava also has an estimated FTP, but it will not be accurate if you don't do it properly. E.g. if you never ride close to 100% over 20 minutes, it will just assume that your e.g. 75% is your 100%.
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Old 05-27-20, 10:24 PM
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I try to do an FTP about once a month. It's a great way to evaluate what I did for that past month. If it's up, and I have a good test, I'm on the right track. If it's down, I screwed something up, re-evaluate the plan.
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Old 06-09-20, 10:38 AM
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I've been using Golden Cheetah for about six weeks now and have started including maximal efforts into my training a few times a week so I can use the Morton 3 parameter model to continuously estimate CP, W' and Pmax to track performance longitudinally throughout the season. Thanks again Seattle Forrest for the recommendation. I'm hooked on Golden Cheetah and find myself not wanting to ride my non-power meter bikes.
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