lactate meter
12-21-16, 03:49 PM
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lactate meter
I want to be able to retest monthly and also a couple of guys I work with want to test as well... but the Lactate Pro is apparently out of production / no longer available.
What lactate meters are available in the US and from what source?
(and we want a prick blood meter... the no prick meters don't work yet at least not good enough for our purposes).
Thx.
What lactate meters are available in the US and from what source?
(and we want a prick blood meter... the no prick meters don't work yet at least not good enough for our purposes).
Thx.
12-21-16, 06:52 PM
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I have the BSX Insight XC2. I hooked it up and got it working but junior no longer wants to be tested. So never really used it.
12-22-16, 01:43 PM
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Yeah I'm hearing the no prick ones are pretty much just wild assed guesses not much better than a HR based ramp test.
Unless someone around NY can demonstrate that I'm hearing wrong things??
Unless someone around NY can demonstrate that I'm hearing wrong things??
12-22-16, 09:56 PM
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I want to be able to retest monthly and also a couple of guys I work with want to test as well... but the Lactate Pro is apparently out of production / no longer available.
What lactate meters are available in the US and from what source?
(and we want a prick blood meter... the no prick meters don't work yet at least not good enough for our purposes).
Thx.
What lactate meters are available in the US and from what source?
(and we want a prick blood meter... the no prick meters don't work yet at least not good enough for our purposes).
Thx.
of course, not everyone agrees on what lactate measurements should be used for.
if you're going to bother measuring lactate accumulation, i think @nycphotography is on the right track -- you need to do it via blood draw.
12-22-16, 10:05 PM
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The goal for any measurement should be accuracy and consistency 
, however I understand that often there is a huge cost associated with either or sometimes both.
, however I understand that often there is a huge cost associated with either or sometimes both.
12-22-16, 10:20 PM
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wearables i've seen have reported different values baed on what muscle they're attached to as well as how they are positioned. the bsx insight only has the calf sleeve, so some might think that eliminates one variable. however, it should prompt the discussion of what the goal should be w/r/t measuring lactate: consistency, accuracy, or both?
of course, not everyone agrees on what lactate measurements should be used for.
if you're going to bother measuring lactate accumulation, i think @nycphotography is on the right track -- you need to do it via blood draw.
of course, not everyone agrees on what lactate measurements should be used for.
if you're going to bother measuring lactate accumulation, i think @nycphotography is on the right track -- you need to do it via blood draw.
12-22-16, 11:13 PM
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yeah well the only place i'm taking a prick is my middle finger so no worries there lol
we found a lactate pro 2 from some place in europe. it should come in next week sometime.
for this purpose accuracy matters as the 4.0 threshold is a hard number that's used to establish zones.
we found a lactate pro 2 from some place in europe. it should come in next week sometime.
for this purpose accuracy matters as the 4.0 threshold is a hard number that's used to establish zones.
12-23-16, 06:19 AM
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yeah well the only place i'm taking a prick is my middle finger so no worries there lol
we found a lactate pro 2 from some place in europe. it should come in next week sometime.
for this purpose accuracy matters as the 4.0 threshold is a hard number that's used to establish zones.
we found a lactate pro 2 from some place in europe. it should come in next week sometime.
for this purpose accuracy matters as the 4.0 threshold is a hard number that's used to establish zones.
However, my immediate response is that if you're pricking a finger, you're getting a sample from capillary blood which will really be telling you about the local environment in the muscle tested. And I can't imagine you're really too interested in the physiology of what's going on in a finger muscle as a cyclist.
Although I've never thought about it, I'm sure the standard in lactate tests is to look at venous blood (which would logically make the most sense, as venous blood is what flows away from muscles and it's also logistically the easiest to draw as its technically far more difficult to access arterial blood).
The basic flow of blood is: heart to arteries (lots of oxygen) to capillaries (which sit as a network within various tissues of the body, including muscle) to veins (full of end products of muscle metaboliism like lactate, and partially de-oxygenated blood) to the lungs to pick up oxygen and thrn back to the heart.
The caplllary blood in your finger has not had a chance to pick up lactate from your quads (say). There is a chance that there's a reliable relationship between finger lactate & venous blood lactate once the venous blood reaches the stage of lactate accumulation- for example, once your venous blood is carrying a lot of lactate, your caplllary blood may start to accumulate lactate as well (because it will not be diffusing out efficiently) and finger blood would become a measure of something.
Different physiology from glucose for example which is being delivered *to* tissues via capillaries and could be expected to be present in representative amounts in a finger prick sample.
Sorry this is just a fly by comment, I dont really know. Whatever method you're using to measure lactate, be sure it's validated, ideally not just by the product manufacturer. If you wind up with any technical specs to read in assessing whatever unit you decide on, and are having trouble evaluating, feel free to shoot it to me in a PM and I'll try to see if I can make sense of it.
Last edited by Heathpack; 12-23-16 at 06:23 AM.
12-23-16, 07:10 AM
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Actually, thinking about it a little more, I'll bet you could use capillary blood after all.
Once you reach a steady state as far as lactate accumulation goes, your venous blood is going to be pushing lactate around. Some of it is going to be shuttled around locally & consumed by near by muscles. Then it will get pushed to the heart, which will use it as a fuel too.
But beyond that, once those tissues are using all the lactate they can, it's going next to the liver to get metabolized to glucose for distribution to the rest of the body. I'd have to look into exactly how this transportation works but presumably it goes muscle lactate moved around locally, when local use is maxed out you see lactate accumulate in venous blood, then to the heart and when heart use is maxed out, you'll start to see lactate in arterial and venous blood. If lactate is in arterial blood, it will get delivered everywhere, so you should see it in finger capillary blood as well, probably in a fixed proportion to venous blood.
Lol not that most of y'all probably care. If I won the lottery for sure I'd get a PhD in exercise physiology.
Once you reach a steady state as far as lactate accumulation goes, your venous blood is going to be pushing lactate around. Some of it is going to be shuttled around locally & consumed by near by muscles. Then it will get pushed to the heart, which will use it as a fuel too.
But beyond that, once those tissues are using all the lactate they can, it's going next to the liver to get metabolized to glucose for distribution to the rest of the body. I'd have to look into exactly how this transportation works but presumably it goes muscle lactate moved around locally, when local use is maxed out you see lactate accumulate in venous blood, then to the heart and when heart use is maxed out, you'll start to see lactate in arterial and venous blood. If lactate is in arterial blood, it will get delivered everywhere, so you should see it in finger capillary blood as well, probably in a fixed proportion to venous blood.
Lol not that most of y'all probably care. If I won the lottery for sure I'd get a PhD in exercise physiology.
12-23-16, 09:51 AM
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Lactate tests are generally used to establish much more than just your LT threshhold (which is the exertion level where your body is no longer able to buffer lactate and it accumulates in the blood which is more or less a nother version of FTP).
LT/FTP can be approximated using FTP test based on heart rate zones. But how do you figure out where your heart rate zones are?
The lactate test is important because it establishes BOTH HR zones AND Power zones, coupling them.
But more important, it also shows the shape of the curve, which shows how well trained you are in each zone. This is used for determining where workouts will be most effective. If the curve doesnt' break, then you lack base, it's too early to add intensity. More volume at endurance and tempo is needed to drive down the middle part of the curve by training fat adapting and lactate buffering. Once the curve breaks nicely, showing a solid base, then threshold and vo2max intervals will push the threshold to the right.
After one or more training cycles, a new test will show the results achieved from the previous cycle, not just in the LT/FTP increase, but also in th shape of the curve, showing that your z2/z3 wprk takes less out of the tank, leaving more available for the z4+ work when it's needed.
You can see big gains in endurance and tempo without actually raising the LT/FTP. In fact, that is the entire point of base training and perioditized training.
LT/FTP can be approximated using FTP test based on heart rate zones. But how do you figure out where your heart rate zones are?
The lactate test is important because it establishes BOTH HR zones AND Power zones, coupling them.
But more important, it also shows the shape of the curve, which shows how well trained you are in each zone. This is used for determining where workouts will be most effective. If the curve doesnt' break, then you lack base, it's too early to add intensity. More volume at endurance and tempo is needed to drive down the middle part of the curve by training fat adapting and lactate buffering. Once the curve breaks nicely, showing a solid base, then threshold and vo2max intervals will push the threshold to the right.
After one or more training cycles, a new test will show the results achieved from the previous cycle, not just in the LT/FTP increase, but also in th shape of the curve, showing that your z2/z3 wprk takes less out of the tank, leaving more available for the z4+ work when it's needed.
You can see big gains in endurance and tempo without actually raising the LT/FTP. In fact, that is the entire point of base training and perioditized training.
12-23-16, 10:56 AM
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I believe the finger to be accurate. I had my kid in rowing last time this year and learned about the lactate measuring from some rowing coaches and they get the rowers on the machine and test the finger. Rowing is more whole body than cycling, but they were happy with that number. I basically got from it those with higher Lactate at same power were less desirable than those with lower. But they also commented that some can take more pain and some rowers would be double the Lactate at max as others. So net was to me, all very interesting, but a lot like HR. It varies a lot per person - but lower was better. Coaches were also selecting on low lactate level numbers as cycling coaches select on power numbers. I'm not really a fan of all that, but that is why I purchased the sleeve. I was hoping to get junior's numbers both in the boat and on the bike. He was by this time an unwilling lab rat.
12-23-16, 03:24 PM
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Lactate tests are generally used to establish much more than just your LT threshhold (which is the exertion level where your body is no longer able to buffer lactate and it accumulates in the blood which is more or less a nother version of FTP).
LT/FTP can be approximated using FTP test based on heart rate zones. But how do you figure out where your heart rate zones are?
The lactate test is important because it establishes BOTH HR zones AND Power zones, coupling them.
But more important, it also shows the shape of the curve, which shows how well trained you are in each zone. This is used for determining where workouts will be most effective. If the curve doesnt' break, then you lack base, it's too early to add intensity. More volume at endurance and tempo is needed to drive down the middle part of the curve by training fat adapting and lactate buffering. Once the curve breaks nicely, showing a solid base, then threshold and vo2max intervals will push the threshold to the right.
After one or more training cycles, a new test will show the results achieved from the previous cycle, not just in the LT/FTP increase, but also in th shape of the curve, showing that your z2/z3 wprk takes less out of the tank, leaving more available for the z4+ work when it's needed.
You can see big gains in endurance and tempo without actually raising the LT/FTP. In fact, that is the entire point of base training and perioditized training.
LT/FTP can be approximated using FTP test based on heart rate zones. But how do you figure out where your heart rate zones are?
The lactate test is important because it establishes BOTH HR zones AND Power zones, coupling them.
But more important, it also shows the shape of the curve, which shows how well trained you are in each zone. This is used for determining where workouts will be most effective. If the curve doesnt' break, then you lack base, it's too early to add intensity. More volume at endurance and tempo is needed to drive down the middle part of the curve by training fat adapting and lactate buffering. Once the curve breaks nicely, showing a solid base, then threshold and vo2max intervals will push the threshold to the right.
After one or more training cycles, a new test will show the results achieved from the previous cycle, not just in the LT/FTP increase, but also in th shape of the curve, showing that your z2/z3 wprk takes less out of the tank, leaving more available for the z4+ work when it's needed.
You can see big gains in endurance and tempo without actually raising the LT/FTP. In fact, that is the entire point of base training and perioditized training.
I do pay attention to HR and I use it in races. But I rarely train with it. Maybe once or twice have I ever had a workout target that related to HR. (One of those workouts was a training eureka moment for me, I think HR can be instructive).
I honestly have no idea how he sets my HR training zones (we really focus on power for most intervals), mostly I'm looking at HR during training as an indicator of fitness and both in training & racing to gauge how maximal my effort really was.
I totally can feel lactic acid metabolically though. Or at least I think I can. There's a certain feel to your legs combined with a specific breathing pattern that tells me when I'm "there". Where? Right around threshold.
12-23-16, 04:19 PM
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Lactate is cumulative in a ride. So two riders that do the first hill - exactly the same, are not the same by the 2nd and 3rd.
It was suggested to me that riding to a Lactate threshold is better than both HR and power. I tend to believe the theory, just making it practical seems hard.
As mentioned - the fat adapting thing may also affect this.
I'd like to hear how it works out.
It was suggested to me that riding to a Lactate threshold is better than both HR and power. I tend to believe the theory, just making it practical seems hard.
As mentioned - the fat adapting thing may also affect this.
I'd like to hear how it works out.
12-23-16, 06:06 PM
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Lactate tests are generally used to establish much more than just your LT threshhold (which is the exertion level where your body is no longer able to buffer lactate and it accumulates in the blood which is more or less a nother version of FTP).
LT/FTP can be approximated using FTP test based on heart rate zones. But how do you figure out where your heart rate zones are?
The lactate test is important because it establishes BOTH HR zones AND Power zones, coupling them.
But more important, it also shows the shape of the curve, which shows how well trained you are in each zone. This is used for determining where workouts will be most effective. If the curve doesnt' break, then you lack base, it's too early to add intensity. More volume at endurance and tempo is needed to drive down the middle part of the curve by training fat adapting and lactate buffering. Once the curve breaks nicely, showing a solid base, then threshold and vo2max intervals will push the threshold to the right.
After one or more training cycles, a new test will show the results achieved from the previous cycle, not just in the LT/FTP increase, but also in th shape of the curve, showing that your z2/z3 wprk takes less out of the tank, leaving more available for the z4+ work when it's needed.
You can see big gains in endurance and tempo without actually raising the LT/FTP. In fact, that is the entire point of base training and perioditized training.
LT/FTP can be approximated using FTP test based on heart rate zones. But how do you figure out where your heart rate zones are?
The lactate test is important because it establishes BOTH HR zones AND Power zones, coupling them.
But more important, it also shows the shape of the curve, which shows how well trained you are in each zone. This is used for determining where workouts will be most effective. If the curve doesnt' break, then you lack base, it's too early to add intensity. More volume at endurance and tempo is needed to drive down the middle part of the curve by training fat adapting and lactate buffering. Once the curve breaks nicely, showing a solid base, then threshold and vo2max intervals will push the threshold to the right.
After one or more training cycles, a new test will show the results achieved from the previous cycle, not just in the LT/FTP increase, but also in th shape of the curve, showing that your z2/z3 wprk takes less out of the tank, leaving more available for the z4+ work when it's needed.
You can see big gains in endurance and tempo without actually raising the LT/FTP. In fact, that is the entire point of base training and perioditized training.
12-23-16, 06:26 PM
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@mattm - why are you my coach and have never mentioned this
12-23-16, 06:52 PM
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I mentioned it here https://www.bikeforums.net/18297856-post2773.html - but as I don't race, my opinion doesn't count.
12-23-16, 10:16 PM
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yeah well the only place i'm taking a prick is my middle finger so no worries there lol
we found a lactate pro 2 from some place in europe. it should come in next week sometime.
for this purpose accuracy matters as the 4.0 threshold is a hard number that's used to establish zones.
we found a lactate pro 2 from some place in europe. it should come in next week sometime.
for this purpose accuracy matters as the 4.0 threshold is a hard number that's used to establish zones.
it may be over or under what an individual can tolerate for long periods of time.
that's why **functional** threshold is a more relevant metric.
some people can push through; others can't.
12-23-16, 10:19 PM
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Lactate tests are generally used to establish much more than just your LT threshhold (which is the exertion level where your body is no longer able to buffer lactate and it accumulates in the blood which is more or less a nother version of FTP).
LT/FTP can be approximated using FTP test based on heart rate zones. But how do you figure out where your heart rate zones are?
The lactate test is important because it establishes BOTH HR zones AND Power zones, coupling them.
But more important, it also shows the shape of the curve, which shows how well trained you are in each zone. This is used for determining where workouts will be most effective. If the curve doesnt' break, then you lack base, it's too early to add intensity. More volume at endurance and tempo is needed to drive down the middle part of the curve by training fat adapting and lactate buffering. Once the curve breaks nicely, showing a solid base, then threshold and vo2max intervals will push the threshold to the right.
After one or more training cycles, a new test will show the results achieved from the previous cycle, not just in the LT/FTP increase, but also in th shape of the curve, showing that your z2/z3 wprk takes less out of the tank, leaving more available for the z4+ work when it's needed.
You can see big gains in endurance and tempo without actually raising the LT/FTP. In fact, that is the entire point of base training and perioditized training.
LT/FTP can be approximated using FTP test based on heart rate zones. But how do you figure out where your heart rate zones are?
The lactate test is important because it establishes BOTH HR zones AND Power zones, coupling them.
But more important, it also shows the shape of the curve, which shows how well trained you are in each zone. This is used for determining where workouts will be most effective. If the curve doesnt' break, then you lack base, it's too early to add intensity. More volume at endurance and tempo is needed to drive down the middle part of the curve by training fat adapting and lactate buffering. Once the curve breaks nicely, showing a solid base, then threshold and vo2max intervals will push the threshold to the right.
After one or more training cycles, a new test will show the results achieved from the previous cycle, not just in the LT/FTP increase, but also in th shape of the curve, showing that your z2/z3 wprk takes less out of the tank, leaving more available for the z4+ work when it's needed.
You can see big gains in endurance and tempo without actually raising the LT/FTP. In fact, that is the entire point of base training and perioditized training.
MLSS testing often does much longer durations. if you have your own meter you might find MLSS testing to provide some interesting data.
12-23-16, 10:25 PM
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Lactate is cumulative in a ride. So two riders that do the first hill - exactly the same, are not the same by the 2nd and 3rd.
It was suggested to me that riding to a Lactate threshold is better than both HR and power. I tend to believe the theory, just making it practical seems hard.
As mentioned - the fat adapting thing may also affect this.
I'd like to hear how it works out.
It was suggested to me that riding to a Lactate threshold is better than both HR and power. I tend to believe the theory, just making it practical seems hard.
As mentioned - the fat adapting thing may also affect this.
I'd like to hear how it works out.
12-24-16, 12:25 AM
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it would be more accurate to describe it as lactate is produced and cleared at different rates for riders. a rider who is more efficient at processing lactate (or one who doesn't accumulate as much in the first place) will be more prepared for a harder effort on hill 2 or 3.
Seems to be (guessing) related to fuel and miles in legs. While it seems that the more one burns, the higher their tolerance becomes - I have not really seen enough data. This is an area I think the rowing folks are more into.
Edit Add: Lactic Acid is also fuel. Hope this is not fake news: https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/he...ion/16run.html
Last edited by Doge; 12-24-16 at 12:29 AM.
12-24-16, 12:31 AM
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I do not know enough about how to change it.
Seems to be (guessing) related to fuel and miles in legs. While it seems that the more one burns, the higher their tolerance becomes - I have not really seen enough data. This is an area I think the rowing folks are more into.
Edit Add: Lactic Acid is also fuel. Hope this is not fake news: Lactic Acid Is Not Muscles' Foe, It's Fuel - The New York Times
Seems to be (guessing) related to fuel and miles in legs. While it seems that the more one burns, the higher their tolerance becomes - I have not really seen enough data. This is an area I think the rowing folks are more into.
Edit Add: Lactic Acid is also fuel. Hope this is not fake news: Lactic Acid Is Not Muscles' Foe, It's Fuel - The New York Times
also, lactate can be converted to energy, at varying levels of efficiency.
12-24-16, 11:49 AM
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Not the kind of data I want for cycling. Unlike HR and Power, and like VO2 max, most the information is from lab testing.
I want an on-race-ride/time graph data for Lactate levels similar to what you get on Strava for power and HR (speed and elevation) against time. I want to see that on KOM attempts especially for riders that are blowing up or doing much more poorly the 2nd half and see if it is too much lactic acid or what. I'd like to see that for others and for junior.
I want an on-race-ride/time graph data for Lactate levels similar to what you get on Strava for power and HR (speed and elevation) against time. I want to see that on KOM attempts especially for riders that are blowing up or doing much more poorly the 2nd half and see if it is too much lactic acid or what. I'd like to see that for others and for junior.
Last edited by Doge; 12-24-16 at 02:16 PM.