alins

Three quick questions:

1. How is this 250W motor on steep hills? I have a hill with average gradient of 6% over 1.6 miles. However it has some very steep parts (18-19% over 0.1 or 0.2 miles) and parts which are around 10-11%.

2. What are my options besides the Kalkhoff or Kettler bikes if I want to get this motor?

3. What is a fair way to compare the Panasonic motor with other geared motors? Example: I did a test ride on an iZip Zuma today (500 W, 36V, rear hub) and while it did go up a 16% road (only 0.05 miles), it did so with some really good pedal assist. On throttle only it was groaning and eventually made it. Will the Panasonic be any better?

Of course my last question is why are they so expensive ... but well, I will be very happy with advice on the three above!

Thanks very much

Paul

spasmous

https://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/flecc/kalkhoff1.html

This website seems to rave pretty highly about the Kalkhoff bikes. I do not own one though - I bought a $800 cheapie about 15 months ago, which I am happy with (finally). It was my "first" bike and I didn't want to spend a fortune. My "second" bike will either be an expensive electric (Kalkhoff a contender) or really good road bike.

morph999 

I think you'd be happier with a stronger motor. Sarahlou has said that she plans on giving us feedback on the Kalkhoff, if you want to wait for that. It's not really all that hard to put an ebike kit together especially if it's all ready designed for you. You just have to put it on the bike and then connect some wires together.

Here are some sites I can suggest

ampedbikes.com
itselectric.com
ebikes.ca
hightekbikes.com
e-bikekit.com (I think that's the name)
cycle9.com
electricrider.com

Also, I'm sure we can walk you through the setup if you want to get an e-bike kit. If I know you'll need help, I'll come back on here and help you if you want. I check on here about a couple times a week.

alins

Thanks. An issue here is that I don't have a regular bike, so first I have to get that (recommendations for a hybrid/comfort bike would be appreciated), and then put a kit on it. I am open to this too; but if a good bike costs $500 and a kit and battery cost $800, then why not get something like an iZip Zuma which has a 500W motor?

Paul

morph999 

Just get a used bike. I got a used one off of craigslist for $85. Are you wanting one with a suspension? If so, then that might be more expensive. If you get a kit, you can make it as powerful as you want if you get the right controller for it. I think iZip has propietary stuff on it and you might not be able to replace some of the parts. I haven't looked into it but I'm assume that's how it is just by reading the description of the bike. It has special mechanisms on it. More special parts also mean more likely to break. It has like 3 modes of operation on the Izip. Right? Just too much fancy stuff if you ask me. That's why I recommend a kit with a simple controller so if something happens, you don't have a useless e-bike just sitting there. A simple e-bike has only 3 parts, the motor, the controller, and the battery. If you want a good ready made bike, have you checked out itselectric.ca ? They have a US store also. They make good e-bikes. I'm not sure how much they are, though. I posted a picture of one of their e-bikes in the Sarahlou thread.

SarahLou

Hi Alins,

I replied to your other thread but if you have any specific questions about the Kalkhoff let me know. It's tricky because I have nothing to compare mine to, except for an E-Moto Ridge 2.0 which I tried, and the Kalkhoff wins hands down for going up the steep. The other bonus is that it's a very light bike, which was important to me.

If I were to buy a bike again and Kalkhoff wasn't an option, I think I'd really consider R Martin or EG (Bali has a big motor and is 23 speed). From what I've found, only the EG bikes have 23 speeds...all others are 7 or 8.

I'm no expert so can't weigh up the difference in gear quality, but the gears on the Kalkhoff change sooooo smoothly, whereas former non-electric bikes of mine do a sort of click or clank.

Is there a way I can measure the performance of the Kalkhoff for you that would help? I do have a bike computer. Just let me know if there's some stats I could post and I'll go for a ride and take note and get back to you...

rolando177

Hi,

I have a Raleigh Dover (made by Kalkhoff and available in Europe). I bought mine on ebay.uk for £1000 and it is extraordinarily good.

I climb two hills on my commute and I have no problem. The motor senses torque and cadence and adds power as you need it. Cadence is everything - max power at 40 rev per min. which is slower than we are used to and takes practice. Keep it in the "zone" and you will be overtaking other cyclists easily.

Not sure what is available where you are but several companies use this engine in Europe. Also in Japan.

The best advice is to just try one. I was not able to do this so I finally bought from ebay - if I didn't like it I would have sold it again.

Rather well made and a "complete" bike in the european style.

I found this link to be very helpful:

www.atob.org.uk/

Hub motors are OK only if they have torque sensors. Otherwise the motor determines your speed and you have to keep up!

chvid

This is simply not correct. Hub motors with a throttle can go at any speed you desire. No problem "keeping up" - at any speed, except perhaps full throttle, if your gearing is too low. Often need an 11 tooth freewheel, if you need to pedal at 25mph or higher.

miro13car

All it takes is to go to web sites and have close up looks at both Kalkhof and Izip.
Kalkhof just from close up pictures screams German/European quality,
Izip is department store China cheap ebike from Walmart type.
You compare Russian LADA to HONDA kind of comparison here.
Walmart would never sell quality bicycle
Kalkhof has a right to be twice if not 3 times more expensive, no doubt.
Why?
Because Kalkhof will last long , long time.

rolando177

It depends how you want to spend your time-fiddling with your throttle or cycling.

Pedelecs outclimb all hub motor bikes in Europe but we are restricted to 250Watts and 15.5mph max assist speed in UK. 300 Watts in Germany.

Probably the only worthwhile piece of advice is to try the different types.

morph999 

Hey, my 1996 KIA is still running well. My KIA was well built. Those koreans really know how to build cars.

chvid

...

chvid

I don't think I would call "using the throttle to get exactly the right amount of power you desire any moment" fiddling with it. I prefer the full intentionality it grants you. With pedelec you have to fiddle with your cadence to know how much power you get. I can cycle as much or as little as I like, pedalling is completely independent of the throttle. Most ebikers in North America don't like pedelec, given the choice. Even Bionx, which is very proprietary is rather lame that way, you get 4 cadence/power settings, vs, "infinite" adjustability of instantaneous power as needed. If you want to get through an intersection quickly, you want max instantaneous power, not required to "pedal fast now (when you are hardly moving?)" etc..How can any algorithm "know" how much power is right at any given moment, given that your cadence could vary a lot at that moment (suitably) to match what you are doing..I just don't get pedelecs at all. It seems like a solution in search of a problem.

SarahLou

From a personal standpoint, I chose Pedelec over non because I still very much want a biking experience, not a sort of moped experience, so that is a factor to consider...what is it you're looking for. I just need extra help up some of the Vermont hills, and that's exactly what I get, plus some extra speed along the flat is rather nice, esp. on a windy day. I do about 25 mph on assist level 1 on a fairly flat piece of road, and that's plenty fast enough for me!

Also, if I had a throttle, I'd probably cave in and use it more than I should, which would defeat the purpose of trying to get fit.

The Kalkhoff quality is incredible and it looks like a normal bike and I ride it often without any assist.

If you want an experience of just being able to motor without pedaling, don't get a pedelec.

BTW: there is no fiddling to find cadence as far as I can tell, you simply get into the gear that suits you as you would a normal bike (or increase/decrease level of assist).

My only beef so far with the Kalkhoff is number of gears - I would like more than 8.

Have you got any closer to finding a bike alins?

nimbuzz

I don't think an ebike needs as many gears = 7, 8 or 9 is eough for me. You need more gears on a regular bike but the motor takes up the slack on an ebike. But you must have the correct chainwheel/rear cluster combination to put you in the zone of what you use. 23 gears also has the added complexity of 3 chainwheels and two deraulers.
2--I agree with chivid that a properly set up hub motor bike ( I have 2) requires no "fiddling" with the throttle--no more than the foot peddal on a car = just apply as much throttle as you desire at any time at all and also peddle as hard as you want at any time = completely free synchronicity of the two--no problem at all. Peddlecs may be fine too--I've never ridden one.
3--I have a kit and two prebuilts--I think kits are a good adventure but can be a project. I've had top motors that would not fit in the dropouts of a top bike = a problem. Also components that had different connectors = electrical plugs and etc. I'm skilled and have tools but have been challenged. Some peeps that are skilled forget how challenging building something can be. Installing a kit can still be a very good way to go especially if you get a quality kit that has been worked out by a real experienced ebike shop like ebikes CA = https://www.ebikes.ca I'd shy away from the kits on ebay from China as there's no recourse or support. For a kit or prebuilt I'd do what Sarah Lou did and stretch your finances a bit to get the most you can possibly afford as that will work the best and last. If you are going to rely on this machine to get you places, not die on you if you get caught in the wet and still be serving you well several years down the road go for quality and ready support.

arevee

I have owned a kalkhoff and a 9 continents hub motor conversion mounted on a Yuba Mundo. Both setups have pros and cons. Kalkhoff was well integrated and had a decent range. The 9 continent conversion has a 48V 20AH battery and will easily out climb the top of the line Kalkhoff. I know because I raced one up a large hill. The battery and controller are the determining factor for speed and climber. No off the shelf bike will have the expensive battery required to propel a heavy bike at 25mph. I road another Yuba with the same motor and a 36v battery, and it didn't climb well at all. Kalkoff can perform well with 24v because the chain drive takes advantage of the bikes gearing. It's expensive and not the most powerful bike, but its still a good option. Low Placement of the heavy battery and ease of removal are 2 huge pluses.