mrmw

I bought machine built wheels twice this month. To begin with a lone rear wheel from Bikewagon via Amazon at https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00..._ya_os_product, and then again from Harris Cyclery https://sheldonbrown.com/harris/wheels/622.html .

The bikewagon wheel was described as having 2.0/1.8 spokes, 36 count, deore lx hub and Dyad rim. The wheel that arrived had 2.0 spokes. Up on the truing stand it was fairly true and the spokes were well tensioned. It had a few minor hops. A check with a dish stick confirmed that the dish was perfect. All in all, except for the spokes being single butted, a very respectable wheel. I still needed to respace the 135 O.L.D down to 130mm, but my parts bin yielded up the axle and I didn't foresee any problems in that area.

I was worried it wouldn't be strong enough, however, so I called Bikewagon and spoke to the owner, Kurt. We checked the description together. Then he gave me an RMA # on the spot and confirmed he would pay for return shipping. I notice that since then he has gotten the description corrected to single butted spokes.

The Harris Cyclery wheels likewise arrived quickly. Up on the stand, the rear wheel was out of dish several mm--and had no shortage of hops. Several spokes were well below tension. The front wheel was true, but grossly under tensioned to an average of about 65.

I didn't know if my expectations were reasonable--that right out of the box I could ride the wheels for a 100 miles or so before their final truing, but I knew this: the dish on the rear wheel was unacceptable, and the under tensioning on the front made it unrideable.

Concerned, I called Harris. I told my story to two people. Then I was passed to a 'mechanic'--Elton. First Elton told me to take them in to a shop and get them trued. Then he told me at my size/weight I should ride custom wheels. This despite what it says on the Harris site about their premium wheels. Somewhere in our conversation I realized I knew a lot more about wheels than Elton knew about shoes and socks. Then I told Elton 'I'm not gonna make a federal case out of this. Tell me what you'll do, and that's the end'. Elton grunted 'That's it'. 'Okay' I said. We hung up.

Lessons learned:
1. Machine wheels are all over the place.
2. It's just about mandatory to have a dish stick and a truing stand and know how to use them.
3. Bikewagon is a low to the ground operation that stands behind its stuff
4. Harris Cyclery is a shadow of what it once may have been.

It made me sad to think about all the basic bike knowledge I learned from Sheldon Brown courtesy of Harris hosting his work. But facts is facts.

I'm getting backed into the corner to just lace the next wheelset up myself.

mudboy

I believe that "Handspun" wheels are actually a QBP-produced item.

Building wheels isn't hard; personally, I find it both rewarding and relaxing to do.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

somehow I doubt reading Sheldon Brown is a requisite for working at Harris. Too bad it isnt.

I own a dish stick but never use it. If you're using a real wheel building stand with a built in caliper that is properly adjusted a dish stick is unnecessary IME. It is good for checking a wheel quickly without throwing it on the stand though.

Undertensioned wheels is a bummer but IMHO better to be undertension yet evenly tensioned than unevenly tensioned.

I guess its just another reason to build yer own. Its easy and you get good wheels out of it.

ColonelJLloyd 

ZB, does the Park TS-2 have this built in caliper you're referring to? I've been using an older TS-2 at my LBS but didn't notice one. I've been using a dish gauge.

What the hell should the spokes be tensioned to? My rear wheels have been running around ~15-16 and ~19-20; the front wheels ~19-20. I don't know what that number is, but that's what I've been doing!

+1

Bianchigirll 

I am not familiar with Dyad rims, but if you don't mind my asking? what is not strong enough about a 36h XT hub laced to most any rim?

I never bought wheels from either but I have had great customer service with both.

noglider 

It's quite tricky to calibrate the TS-2 to be completely centered. Mine is a good bit off, so I just remember how off it is and build the wheel to be off center inside the caliper. To verify, I flip the wheel and make sure it's in the same place.

I've been having a heck of a time building my latest wheel, but that's because I'm a cheapskate and insisted on using spokes I had on hand. I also should have checked the length of the spokes before starting. Some are too long, and some are too short.

I've got it right now, but I'll have to file down some spoke ends now.

I taught myself a new trick this time. You'll probably tell me it's common knowledge. Anyway, the trick:

The problem is that putting the last bit of tension in the wheel is difficult because the wheel is already tight. It's even harder if you realize you have to move the rim over to the right. The result can be an undertensioned wheel.

The solution is to move the rim too far to the right. Then increase tension with the left spokes. Final tension is high, and rim is in the right place.

When did the term dish stick emerge? I like it. We called it a dishing tool. Actually, they're both wrong. You use it for both front and rear wheels, and you use it to check that the rim is centered between the locknuts, so it should be called a centering tool.

lostarchitect 

Doh. I wish I had thought of that when I was building my first wheelset recently. Next time.

miamijim

Wheel strength is 90% rim. You can build a 48H wheel with motorcycle spokes but its going to go out of true and bend real quick if its a suck rim. Give me a nice stout rim and I'll build you a nice stout wheel.

WNG

TS-2 doesn't require a dishing tool. If properly calibrated, the rim will always be dished properly when done.

To align the TS-2, loosen the rod binders at each end of the preload spring. The spring takes out the the tolerances from the thread. Find the middle of the rod, now bring the arms together and center upon that spot. You can use a plumb bob or carpenter's square. Once squared away, tighten the binders. Now you can focus on the caliper arm to check if it's square. Draw a line from the midpoint to the closed caliper, should intersect if aligned. If not there's a shaft and nut(s) at the base to adjust it laterally.

Note, if you have one of the old TS stands w/o the spring, go buy a spring from home depot and add it in between those binders. Save a lot of cursing.

Oregon Southpaw

And the Dyad is indeed a nice stout rim.

jimmuller 

I admit to being frustrated by (one or two people at) Harris occasionally but I still patronize the place. (I live only a few miles away.) I'm not sure which one there is Elton, but I do trust their mechanics to know what they are doing. They don't have much more C&V knowledge than any other shop but they do seem to want to be helpful rather than dismissive, and their inventory is pretty good.

Re wheels, I recently had an unsatisfactory experience with wheels hand-built elsewhere. I finally took them to Harris, and their guy, who I believe was the shop foreman, did a nice job building what I wanted in the first place. I've taken other stuff there for work and come away happy. Since then though I've just built whatever I needed myself.

Disclaimer - I worked there one summer long ago assembling bikes. I had mixed feelings about a few things then but I'm still willing to forgive.

Bianchigirll 

yes I agree, that is why I don't ride GEL 280s. I don't see where the OP says why this particular wheel/rim is not strong enough. is it for a downhill tandem?

clasher

I've bought machine built wheels just for the parts, works out cheaper sometimes if going all new.

rootboy 

Had a somewhat strange encounter with Elton, which is irrelevant here, but I would suggest if you weren't satisfied with the results, talk to one of the Harris'. Elton is their resident vintage bike guru and one of the managers, but he's not a mechanic as far as I know. But only been there once. That said, maybe there were variables in the rims or maybe the wheel builder rushed it, but I'll agree with the sentiment that it is very rewarding to build your own wheels. It does require an investment of course, but if you're somewhat meticulous, take your time and don't skip any steps, you can build wheels as well or better than most shops can, IMO. I considered wheel building a dark, esoteric art, until I tried it. I still believe building very good wheels is an art, but it's not dark or esoteric anymore.
I followed this site and found it to be right on the screws. https://miketechinfo.com/new-tech-wheels-tires.htm
My vintage centering tool and TS-2 are two of the most useful tools I've ever bought.

MetinUz

I think the OP is referring to the spokes, 1.8/2.0 spokes build a longer lasting wheel than 2.0 spokes.

RobbieTunes

I've ridden several sets right out of the box, and then, like Steve says, about 100-150 miles later, I get them trued.
The only custom built wheels I have are head and shoulders above anything else I have.

good to see mrmw back and active.

realestvin7

One day I'm going to take Lotek up on his offer and kick it at his place. I'll bet some neat wheels will emerge.

mrmw

Answers, in no particular order:
1. I ride touring and sport touring framed bikes to support my size: 6'3" / south of 250 when I'm trim, north (sigh) of 300 when I'm not. Right now I'm in the middle.

2. So the wheels need to be stout.

3. I expected the wheels to show up somewhat true, and properly tensioned. At my size, undertensioned wheels can be a real problem.

4. The bikes:
--My 'A' everyday bike is a Schwinn /82 Super Sport S/P with custom built wheels--Mavic A719 rims, double butted spokes, Deore LX hubs spaced to 130.
--'B' bike is an '84 Centurion Pro Tour. This rides like a Bentley. I had hoped that with new wheels it would get ridden more often; maybe even make a few trips.
--'C' bike is an '83 Miyata Six Ten. It's current wheels are somewhat creaking 27x1-1/4's originally from my better half's '85 Panasonic 1000. This bike has fenders, and is the travel/rain bike.

5. Work and work travel have picked up, and it's a struggle to maintain the riding schedule. Bike maintenance time has become severely limited.

6. You would think the dish stick might be superfluous in tandem to a truing stand. Not so. It's an instant fool proof low-tech reality check.

7. So far, I've learned to use the TS-2 truing stand and tensionometer pretty well. But I haven't advanced to wheelbuilding. If I had, I never would have bought machine built wheels. I'll true and dish all these wheels maybe over xmas, when everything slows for a week or so and the weather sucks. I had wanted to ride them right now, but I guess that's not happening.

Both wheel purchases were targeted at getting the 'B' and 'C' bikes back on to the road.

rootboy 

This, to my mind, IS the dark and esoteric aspect of wheel building. Of all the stuff I've read, from Brandt's book to most web sites, none of them seem to address this issue to my satisfaction. I considered the purchase of a tool which I considered of questionable accuracy and limited utility, an inexpensive tension gage, to be a non-option ...and as much as I love good tools, couldn't justify the one I thought I could trust, the expensive DT gage ...so I decided to teach myself to tension by feel and sound. A tall order. However, I've found that the method recommended on some sites to be working Ok for me. Compare to a known good wheel and feel for proper tension and pluck for proper tone. Subjective at best but my first set of wheels is still tight and true and seemingly stout and durable. I really liked the instructions shown in the web site I referred to above and found that if you follow his instructions to a T, you end up with a very well made wheel. As for proper tension? I figure it's a learned art, and I'm still learning.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

Santa gave me a new TS-2 for christmas last year, its got the caliper thing I'm talking about and it was perfectly centered out of the box. I have a gauge shaped like a big "T" that came with my Minoura True Pro that lets you check if the caliper is centered on the stand.

Spoke tension depends on the rim, and to a degree the hub. Look at the rim specs and see what its max recommended tension is, and you can get those same specs for the hub but in most cases the hub's upper limit is much higher than the rim so you generally don't need to be concerned with it. From what I understand optimal tension is somwhere between 100 and 120 Kgf....at least that's what I use on all my wheels. Just check the Rim spec and make sure that isn't too much for your rim, and honestly if it is you should probably be using better rims.

When you say 15-16 and 19-20 I assume you mean the number on a Park Tension gauge. You use the little chart that comes with the tension gauge to determine what number you want to see on your Park Gauge. Look up your spoke size on the chart and it will tell you what Park Gauge numbers correspond to what Kgf value for that size spoke. For 14ga Double butted spokes 19-20 is about right I think. You're doing it right Colonel....you want the Tensions even on both sides of the Front wheel and the NDS tension on the rear wheel to be about the same as the front, the DS tension will always be a bit lower because of the dish....unless you're building a symmetrical rear wheel (like an IGH or Single Speed) or working with a rim with an offset spoke bed.

ColonelJLloyd 

Great. That's what I thought, ZB. And, yes, I'm using the blue Park Tension gauge. I've only been using Sapim 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes; so far with great results.

Rootboy, I've been trying my hand at plucking the spokes and I'm better at adjusting tension this way than I thought I'd be when confirming with the Park gauge. That's one of the attractions of building my own wheels. My hands and eyes have been all over that wheel and when I'm done I'm confident in it.

mrmw, my LBS owner and I were talking recently about wheels for heavier riders and a few other customers he has who continually break spokes. He has great customer service and has been replacing spokes for a couple clients at a clip of 3-4 per year on machine built wheels. He has decided not to sell machine built wheels to heavier riders or those whose wheels will see more abuse (skinny tires and pot holes, etc). Actually, he tries not to sell machine built wheels much at all anymore, even though his margins are better. He'd just rather become a better wheel builder and provide a better, longer lasting product.

I agree that at your size you should be riding strong, high quality wheels. Dyads with 36h, laced 3x with 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes should be sufficient. I think a lot of machine built wheels lack attention to the elbow at the hub flange. As I understand it, it is pretty important to get these seated and situated properly in this area. This is where most spokes break.

lotek 

Just let me know, hell I'll bring the materials up to you! (my workshop is catch as catch can, i.e. wherever I can set up).

mrmw, if you're already truing wheels, have the equipment why not just jump in feet first and try your hand
at building a set of wheels. It's not all that difficult, I highly recommend The Art of Wheelbuilding by Shraner
as a good read and an easy method to start with. Sheldon's instructions are also excellent.
When I started I built wheels, tensioned to what I thought was right and then took them to my LBS for verification and
final tensioning.

Marty

jan nikolajsen 

To the OP: Harris need to take that wheel back at their cost. It's unused but flawed. Cut and dry case.

Off topic opinionated comments:

Use a 'dish stick', always. Even freshly tuned TS-2's have inherent minute inaccuracies that, together with subtle user errors, can result in non-centered wheels. Why rely on assumptions when a cheap, easy to use tool can confirm your work?

Noglider and Rootboy have some good posts in this thread.

Build a quality wheel with butted spokes. Stronger, longer lasting, lighter.

Never use aluminium nipples.

triathloner

I attended Barnett's 2 week course in colorado spring, and we covered wheel building for about a day and a half of the course. They have taken all the guess work out of it. they have a formula that they have figured out for wheelbuilding. Provided you start out with a rim that is straight, and good spokes that are the right length, it is really easy to get a good straight, perfectly tensioned wheel. Once you bring the wheel up to tensioin, you take some readings with your tension tool and plug it into an equation with a multiplier they have figured out and it actually tells you how many turns on the spoke wrench to get it right. No if I could tell you easily how to do this I would, but there is a guide to follow, and they may even have it copyrighted I'm not sure. But if you are close to them I would recommend taking their wheelbuilding course, it is great. Oh and the riding there is awesome, makes a nice trip destination.

khatfull

I dunno...

I don't own a tension meter but the wheels I build seem to come out fine, I've never broken a spoke, and only require the teeniest but of truing (if at all) after a few miles.

One thing I do after every truing pass, whether lateral or vertical, is stress relieve the spokes by grabbing opposite pairs and squeezing. That let's me gauge tension, helps seats the heads, forms the spoke elbows into the hub, and (I believe) also helps seats the nipples to the rim nicely.

If I'm doing it wrong I'd never know it.