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Are Drop bars just an illusion for most?

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Are Drop bars just an illusion for most?

Old 09-18-19, 01:18 PM
  #401  
DrIsotope
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I know exactly what trail braking is, and I think to some extent we're all doing it unconsciously when entering any corner, because none of us are apexing every corner. This goes back to bicycles basically not going fast enough to overcome available grip.

But I will say with some certainty that any corner you're trail braking into could be taken faster on a bicycle by taking the straightest line without braking. Racing vehicles are basically never coasting. They're either accelerating or braking.

There seems to be a lot of conflating bicycles with motorcycles happening in this thread, and the similarities largely end at both having two wheels. When I'm exiting a corner, I don't have +150hp between my knees, just a couple of water bottles.

On a bicycle that isn't on a velodrome, exit speed is almost completely determined by the speed carried through the corner. You're either coasting and leaning, or pedaling through. There are limitations as to how much of each any of us can do.
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Old 09-18-19, 02:03 PM
  #402  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope
There are limitations as to how much of each any of us can do.
yes there are, Many of those limitations comes from the inability to use a drop bar how it was intended to be used.
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Old 09-18-19, 02:59 PM
  #403  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope
...I will say with some certainty that any corner you're trail braking into could be taken faster on a bicycle by taking the straightest line without braking.
I submit that if you are able to coast through a curve without braking, you scrubbed off more speed than you needed to before the turn, and your exit speed is lower than it could be. That’s true for a bicycle, motorcycle, or race car.
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Old 09-18-19, 03:07 PM
  #404  
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For most riding situations you don't need more than two hand positions and there are plenty of other types of handle bars besides drop bars that offer multiple hand positions and comfort.
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Old 09-18-19, 03:26 PM
  #405  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
Dragging feet never flipped a guy over his bars either. Which is what hood braking does, it just drags the pads.
Now you are just making stuff up. You went from telling us that braking from the hoods was going to cause us to crash because we can't hang on to the hoods to tell us that braking from the hoods isn't more effective than Flintstoning our bikes. Where do you get this stuff from? There are numerous videos of people riding on the hoods and braking from the hoods in competitions both on road and cyclocrossing above. Tell them that they can brake effectively from the hoods.

Since you say that it's as effective as dragging our feet, have you never use the brakes from the hoods? You always drop down to the drops in every braking situation? Sorry but I don't need swamp land in Florida.
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Old 09-18-19, 03:48 PM
  #406  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
yes there are, Many of those limitations comes from the inability to use a drop bar how it was intended to be used.
you should tell mathieu van der poel or any of the other cyclocross pros they don't know how to ride their bikes
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Old 09-18-19, 04:11 PM
  #407  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
you should tell mathieu van der poel or any of the other cyclocross pros they don't know how to ride their bikes
they are not the ones telling me it's stupid to ride in the drops. or the ones claiming that drop bars are an illusion.
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Old 09-18-19, 04:12 PM
  #408  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
You went from telling us that braking from the hoods was going to cause us to crash.
please quote that.
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Old 09-18-19, 04:13 PM
  #409  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
they are not the ones telling me it's stupid to ride in the drops. or the ones claiming that drop bars are an illusion.
Its like...two people can be both be wrong while arguing with each other
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Old 09-18-19, 04:15 PM
  #410  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
Its like...two people can be both be wrong while arguing with each other
and you can't hold your own argument so you default your position to someone else. Why do you even post on BF, why don't you have a pro racer do it for you?
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Old 09-18-19, 04:18 PM
  #411  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
and you can't hold your own argument so you default your position to someone else. Why do you even post on BF, why don't you have a pro racer do it for you?
Because I'm just a schmuck who races bikes on the weekends, why should anyone take my advice? Whereas pros who hone their craft and get paid probably have a good idea of what works and wouldn't use a position like the hoods if it really was as bad as you claim it to be.
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Old 09-18-19, 04:24 PM
  #412  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
Because I'm just a schmuck who races bikes on the weekends, why should anyone take my advice? Whereas pros who hone their craft and get paid probably have a good idea of what works and wouldn't use a position like the hoods if it really was as bad as you claim it to be.
without your dramatics , how bad did i claim it to be. Please quote it.
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Old 09-18-19, 04:27 PM
  #413  
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Originally Posted by DynoD500_SR20-d
All this💪
Same here.
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Old 09-18-19, 04:32 PM
  #414  
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For most riding situations you don't need more than two hand positions and there are plenty of other types of handle bars besides drop bars that offer multiple hand positions and comfort.
I get that you apparently don't need more than 2 hand positions for most riding. That doesn't give you the knowledge you need to tell anybody else how many positions they need.

As a kid, I used one hand position on single- and 3-speed bikes. Now I like to use a bunch of positions from time to time. I normally use 3 hand positions. You don't think I need them? Not my problem.
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Old 09-18-19, 04:40 PM
  #415  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
without your dramatics , how bad did i claim it to be. Please quote it.


Originally Posted by Metieval
the rest of us are not surprised. You've spent years Manhandling the brake lever from the hoods, because that was the only way to stop from the hoods.

Now that the market offers better brakes, you still have no modulation because your habit is full on brake.

My problem, since you asked. Is that you think your previous lack of ability to apply power from the hoods is seen as modulation by you, and that you promote this hood braking on descents as sound bicycling on a forum. Which does not promote safe riding for riders that are learning.
Originally Posted by Metieval
the term is "trail braking", and it is faster to trail brake.

Lightened braking, which fits in with why being in the drops is better. More control over your braking. Unlike the guys on the hoods with the on/off braking.
Originally Posted by Metieval
Dragging feet never flipped a guy over his bars either. Which is what hood braking does, it just drags the pads.
Yet cyclocross racers from Cat 5 to pro learn how to modulate and stop their bikes using only on off dragging i guess. Also want to point out that I never said that braking from the hoods was better, in fact on the road and gravel I'm probably in my drops more than any other position descending but am on my hoods 99% of the time during a cross race. They all have their place and purpose and all positions when set up correctly are viable.
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Old 09-18-19, 04:44 PM
  #416  
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so I never once said it was bad. BAD was your stigma and label.

yet you dishonestly apply it as I said it?
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Old 09-18-19, 05:02 PM
  #417  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
so I never once said it was bad. BAD was your stigma and label.

yet you dishonestly apply it as I said it?
Actually I never used the word bad. You did
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Old 09-18-19, 05:13 PM
  #418  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
Actually I never used the word bad. You did
oh what's this ? All you man!

https://www.bikeforums.net/21128390-post431.html
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Old 09-18-19, 05:26 PM
  #419  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
youre right, you got me because i was thinking about it in terms of the nuance difference, as bad =/= bad, just like you're claiming that what you stated is not "bad", but the point is the same, its not a black and white on or off issue that you make it seem. Your statements about the lack of modulation and brake dragging are still wrong.
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Old 09-18-19, 05:37 PM
  #420  
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I just stated what is about hood braking. It's a lever if you want better modulation then Move farther away from the fulcrum. better modulation

Super simple science. Is it bad, is it good... you decide. That won't change it from what it is though.
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Old 09-18-19, 05:52 PM
  #421  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
I just stated what is about hood braking. It's a lever if you want better modulation then Move farther away from the fulcrum. better modulation

Super simple science. Is it bad, is it good... you decide. That won't change it from what it is though.
That doesn't mean its on/off, or that you have no modulation. And that you can only drag the brakes from that position. Those were your words
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Old 09-18-19, 06:15 PM
  #422  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
For most riding situations you don't need more than two hand positions and there are plenty of other types of handle bars besides drop bars that offer multiple hand positions and comfort.
Yep. But this thread ... page 18 ... you can't make this stuff up, you really can't.
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Old 09-18-19, 07:03 PM
  #423  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
That doesn't mean its on/off, or that you have no modulation. And that you can only drag the brakes from that position. Those were your words
of course that is my opinion, based on the majority of the bikes at large cycling events, bikes sold on craigslist, bikes that come into the shops, half of them can't even lube a chain. glazed pads, dirty rims, dirty pads, pads not toed in right, huge gaps between pads and brake surface.

but hey.... the pro with a sponsor paid mechanic and hydraulic rim brakes that does a completer bike rebuild between races can do it, that makes it an absolute for everyone else that is riding a bike that hasn't seen a mechanic in a year or more? cool argument bro!
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Old 09-18-19, 08:26 PM
  #424  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
of course that is my opinion, based on the majority of the bikes at large cycling events, bikes sold on craigslist, bikes that come into the shops, half of them can't even lube a chain. glazed pads, dirty rims, dirty pads, pads not toed in right, huge gaps between pads and brake surface.

but hey.... the pro with a sponsor paid mechanic and hydraulic rim brakes that does a completer bike rebuild between races can do it, that makes it an absolute for everyone else that is riding a bike that hasn't seen a mechanic in a year or more? cool argument bro!
If you extend your argument to the only logical conclusion if you aren't riding hydraulic disc in the drops with perfect full single finger modulation then all you're doing is slamming your bike around corners dragging brakes because you could have possibly had 1% more control since it seems to be a black or white issue for you.
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Old 09-19-19, 02:16 AM
  #425  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
And here you come out saying "braking while cornering is a bad idea and should be avoided if at all possible".

You are incorrect.

Every skilled descender brakes into curves. It is not only fast, it is safe. Simple physics shows this. I literally brake into every fast turn.

Stop fear mongering.
Going through corners so fast you need to brake while cornering is safe? I'll have to disagree with that. Safe is when you have enough margin to maneuver corrections if something goes wrong or something unexpected happens. This is very easy to achieve if you plan the corner in advance and brake well in advance. If you attack a corner at at the limit of traction so fast you actually need to brake to get into it (which I still posit is slower than braking before and then using all traction for cornering), you don't have much margin of error to maneuver. Not the epitome of safety in my mind.

I'll assume that next you'll argue that you don't need to go through corners at limit of available traction, but why then would you brake while cornering if you don't have to? If the aim is to go through corners safely, why risk it with dividing traction between braking and cornering?

As to using the skilled rider argument, prove it.

Also, a quote straight from wikipedia: "There is risk with trail braking because excessive use of the front brake can result in a loss of grip as the tire's adhesion is split between braking and cornering forces.[6] Effective trail braking requires finesse from the rider, which can be difficult to learn.[6]"


Originally Posted by Spoonrobot
Let me help you with an article aimed towards cyclists, not race car drivers: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/zeps-h...ners-2015.html
So here you've found an article which deals with mountain biking, downhill to be specific. However the funny thing about downhill and descending with a mountain bike in general is that sometimes you actually want to lose traction with the rear tire and so you brake with the rear brake only to achieve a tighter turn. However in general said techinque is considered bad trail etiquette as it damages trails. Sometimes it also happens by accident.
There's also something to be said about the differences of loose surface and tarmac riding, which are in fact pretty significant. Said differences affect almost all aspects of riding and so mountain descents and road descents are two very, VERY different things.

Good effort but it's not really relevant for the discussion at hand.

It goes without saying that losing traction on either tire whilst doing a road descent is the last thing one wants. Hence braking with the rear tire whilst cornering is a bad idea.
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