RiddleOfSteel

Alternative titles include:

"P15 Meets EPS"
"Heresy!"
"Life in Exile"
"How to Lose C&V Club Rights in Ten Easy Steps"
"I'm in the Doghouse and I'm Not Even Married!"

...ok, kidding. Mostly. A number of you know of my rescued-from-the-grave and @gugie -repaired 1974 Schwinn Paramount P15 touring frameset I picked up several years ago. Originally built up with Suntour Superbe of approximate vintage, Jackie (her name) has received new component compositions to bring out her true character (faster, lighter, more capable, but still true to origin). Always a rebel-themed build from the start of my ownership/stewardship, she enters her most daring build era with the adornment of Campagnolo's Athena 11-speed EPS (electronic shifting) groupset. I obtained this mostly complete groupset for, let's say, a very good deal. No crankset, no Athena brakes (Centaur ones, though, yes). The battery/brain unit was dead, with a wire cut. The shifter junction box had it's wire severed as well. Both of these would need to be purchased, as would an 11-speed chain and cassette (used or new). I am still galaxies ahead on what everything would cost new, which helps. I'll also be using the current standard reach Shimano brake calipers as well as the new-era FSA Energy compact crankset. The brakes match the brightwork, and the crankset matches the all-black painted portion of the frame.

The big challenge of this, once past the "this is so devious" feeling of running electronic shifting on a vintage bike that was certainly never designed for it (heck, even the majority of modern performance bikes aren't designed for it either!), was/is how to make this look good in addition to functioning properly. Proper function is of course a given, but having limp-looking wires hung everywhere? That has to be well thought through and executed. Fortunately, the big reason the Paramount was chosen was because of its matte/satin black paint. Other factors included doing something to get the mojo back as her latest composition, while black and sinister, was somehow missing the magic when it came time to ride. Maybe it's the 35mm tires (love the tan walls and the cushier ride!) messing with the trail. I know 28mm and 32mm tires work well. 35mm tires have a little more to prove. Still, I press on with them and we'll figure it out.

Once done with the build and with it presumably working correctly, I'd like to begin a C&V + Electronic Shifting thread. Maybe I'll be the only crazy guy in it, but after not finding any examples of any steel frame of any age hung with electronic shifting components, someone's gotta do something about it. Maybe we'll get some Mavic Zap and Mektronic owners in there! Those groupsets predate Di2, EPS, and E-Tap (ok, and FSA's "WE") and are certainly vintage. My journey will either be an abomination and adulteration of the last bit of sanctity that a C&V bike has, or an evolution of hotrodding a la the "STI and Ergo" thread. It's a bit mad scientist (to quote 'Caveman), a bit mischief, and a bit opportunist, and a good bit fun and curiosity.

Let's get this thing going!

"Previously on Not Leaving Well Enough Alone......"


I've always wanted to try these new-era Campagnolo shifters--I think they look really cool. I've liked 8-speed, 9- and 10-speed, so why not 11-speed? This groupset debuted in 2012 and is firmly part of the "V1" era of EPS and associated connections and compatibilities. Athena 11 EPS V1 is thankfully interchangeable with Chorus 11 EPS V1. Record and Super Record V1 naturally had different connectors for all the wiring and are thus not compatible, even though the shape of all components were the same. There are reports that V1 Athena and Chorus will work with V2 Chorus battery/brain units, which went from huge boxes to in-seat-tube/in-seat-post entities. That would have been nice! Still, there is comfort that Athena shared the same big, ungainly, battery/brain box as Super Record. I will note that the clicks for the shifting sound neat, but more importantly, feel very nice.


On the bars. Found some 26.0mm clamp compact-profile bars for cheap and am pumped to use them on this bike. I personally don't need super-textured grips as I find it more irritating to my hands than helpful. It's whatever at the end of the day, and the lever body shape is ergonomic.


Look at those non-cycling computer wires! what are they doing on a bike from 1974?!?


Ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. This is going to be great!

RiddleOfSteel

As you can see, I run a tight ship here at home...

There's enough extra wire for really wide bars and tall head tubes, thankfully. I route the wires behind the shifters/bars to the junction box. Since this three-wire deal had to be replaced, I did a lot of hand wrestling with the shifter hoods to get at a cover to the hollow box in the shifter body that the wire connections live in. Gotta be real patient with that process, but it's doable and you can hide some extra wire length in there. Campy also accommodated extra wire routing on the shifter body (under the hoods) so as to avoid wire strain in the event that something gets caught on the exterior of the bike, or in a crash (I suppose).


This is why the all-black motif of the bars and stem (let alone much of the overall bike) works so well: concealment. Here I am routing the front brake cable as well as the shift wires. My logic on all of this:

1) Shfiters: electrical tape to hold the extra wiring in during install (outboard surface of the shifter body, shown exposed, nearest to viewer). Bar tape as palm padding and surface-transition-aid on the top of the shifter body. Below that bar tape is the recess for the shifter-to-bar mount bolt. Apparently they are T-25 Torx. Since no one in this universe has an allen key L-shaped T-25 key, I changed these bolts out for normal 5mm hex/allen key interface ones. Back to the bar tape: the shifter body transitions very smoothly to the bars, which is cool. Unfortunately in the case of compact bars, any wrapped bar tape will create a bump at the end of the shifter body. This bump is where the base of your palm is. This will disallow full and evenly-distributed pressure of your palm on the shifter body as well as the bars (palms usually 'overhang' a shifter body by a little, resting on the bars slightly). The bar tape on top of the shifter body, in addition to providing palm padding, works with the wrapped bar tape to create a fully smooth surface (and surface transition), seen on the right shifter. I am a stickler for this as I like to be comfortable on the bike and don't wear gloves. It also just looks better when done right. I've seen a number of pictures of this era of shifter having that bump right at the end of the hood as it wraps over the bar tape. Sad!

2) Junction box is "hidden" or "eclipsed" by the stem. Zip ties are the order of the day, and they work well.

3) The extra mass of electrical tape to the left of the junction box has coiled up wire as there was extra length. This coiled wire resides under the bar tape for maximum stealth as well as protection.


Another shot of the coiled wire and hidden junction box .

AdventureManCO 

Looks cool! I like it.

Regarding the heresy aspect, who cares. Do what you want to do. I drilled out the brake holes (in fork and seatstay bridge) in my beater PX-10 to accept modern dual pivots. This world is already filled with plenty of conformists who feel the need to line up with everyone else's aesthetic. It's nice to see breaks from the norm. Hope you get the wires sorted out. Is the rear already cold-set for 11 speed?

TenGrainBread 

I'm not as familiar with EPS as I am with e-Tap and Di2. Is there any wireless component or is it fully wired?

What are you going to do with the downtube shifter bosses?

I would personally run a Sugino compact crank and a more traditional-looking seatpost/saddle but the modern black components actually look pretty good with the flat black of the frame.

RiddleOfSteel

I've gone from Ultegra hubs, silver spokes, and black rims (with machined brake tracks) to black hubs (Origin8), black spokes, and black rims (with machined brake tracks). A bit darker! These wheelsets I've had for at least three years, and I bought them as the rear freehub was Campagnolo splined. The rims, I believe, are Velocity A23. 23mm wide (externally) rims with no stickers on them (looks a lot better). Feels better when running teh 35mm Paselas. The wheelset weighs about 1800g IIRC, not that it really matters though. Keeping costs in check by reusing things I already have.


This is an idea for running the wire from the junction box to the battery/brain unit, which is traditionally mounted aft of the down tube water bottle cage. Please note that I will not be tensioning this wire--it is merely to corral the ends and facilitate a start/end point for a wire sheath of some sort. Anyway, I picked up this cable guide but measured the inner diameter wrong. Got a 31.8mm ID unit instead of a 28.6mm ID unit. Derp. I can mount it to my Cannondale ST400 and use it as a spoke holder!


Ok, most of everything is mounted onto the bike! The battery/brain unit is next, as is wiring up everything, which is the real challenge. Gotta make it pretty! It's looking good so far, though!

RiddleOfSteel

Thank you! The frame was originally 126mm, so it's still that wide. I pretty much forget about it as it's not a hassle to pop a 130mm axle in there. Long chainstays help, too.

RiddleOfSteel

EPS is fully wired like Di2. E-Tap would be perfect for a C&V bike as it's wireless, but alas, it's not as pretty (to me) and not very cheap first- or second-hand (the real reason!). I love the look and feel of the Di2 hood/lever shapes when in-hand. Of course this extends to being a fan of the 7900/9000/9100 Dura-Ace and 6700/6800/8000 Ultegra groupsets in general. Ok, how about most everything road-wise with Shimano...lol.

This era of Paramount Touring did not have down tube shifter bosses, which is nice. No bottle cage bosses either, which is both good and bad. Obviously there are markings from clamped bands for down tube shifters, so I will be putting a banded cable stop to distract from the imperfect hand-sprayed (by me) paint job, as well as to serve as a wire connector start/stop point.

The point of the newer cranks, seat post and saddle are thematic, so they will be staying for sure. The saddle is a Prologo Scratch Pro and I have them on most of my bikes. Found my "go to" saddle!

RiddleOfSteel

So, I need to mount this battery/brain box thing, and I don't have bottle cage bosses with which to mount a bayonet-style battery/brain mounting "stick." What do I do? Drill out some water bottle band clamps and mount them to the underside of the box!

You can see on the right that there is a mounting bracket that comes attached to the battery/brain box (labled DTI here, so I'll just use that). M5 bolts run through the band clamps and through some 5-6mm spacers and into the threaded holes in the DTI box. The black cube at the front/slanted end of the box (left most end) is a denser foam. I will use that foam as well as some discretely taped bar tape (a very small piece) to pad the DTI box's mounting to my frame's delicate paint.


Initial mounting, not tightened down. The aft band clamp got bent a bit when the drill bit caught and twisted it. Tension when tightening straightens it out, right? Right...


Mounted! Looking surprisingly normal/professional (?) (delusional???) The juxtapositioning of eras here is something I find humorous. Good times!


Rear perspective of the mounted unit. This is a very generous amount of wiring that Campagnolo gives the user/rider/owner/mechanic. Not a problem if it's all internally placed. A bit of a conundrum when it's external and I have to find a good way of tidying it up, hiding it, while making sure the wire is protected as much as reasonably possible.


This is the solution for now. A "V1" solution, if I may.

gugie 

Heresy! (Says the Italian guy who takes perfectly good English frames and turns them French against their will).

Just shows that an old steel frame can be most anything you want it to be, since it survived this long.

RiddleOfSteel

This is a totally stable arrangement:

Also, notice the coil-wrap on the front brake cable housing. That is bundling the cable/cable housing and the junction-box-to-DTI-box wire. I'll get another picture of it soon, but it's all one can do to keep things clean. And really, as an aside, I think the only reason a mess of flowing cables and housing are visually "ok" on current bikes is because those "lines" are all under tension and therefore look purposeful. That and because we've always had cables going places. When it's electronic wires, those wires aren't under any tension--they're basically limp and look so. We've all seen a million wrapped wires for vintage and modern cycling computers. It's never the cleanest look, it's just 'making it work.'


This is where I am with how the DTI box looks from the drive side. There's a lot going on, but there can't be any less going on, you know? Time to string those wires, which will be on the underside of the down tube. I am working to source some sort of small diameter, rigid, black sheathing to run wires along various tubes. Think of those scrunchy wiring loom protectors under the hood of your car. Now imagine that protector without the scrunches, and rigid-straight, but still with the slit in them to allow wires to be slotted in. You get the idea.

RiddleOfSteel

Indeed it can! And you made it able to keep going!

Reco Very

Would spiral wire wrap work?

Whit51 

hairnet

I've never been a fan of electronic shifting but this bike is still very sexy

RiddleOfSteel

I have spiral wrap currently on/around the front brake cable housing and shifter junction box and nowhere else. The spiral wrap is inherently flexible, and I need something absolutely rigid--straight as an arrow. A spoke is very small in diameter, yet rigid. Put a wire along it and do a clean electrical tape wrap job and there you have it. Spanning the down tube's length will be the trickiest bit.

Thank you! In this case of keeping things, it's Recycled Cycles. They are a constant help and source. Spoiled to be close enough to do business with them!

Thank you! I still like mechanical shifting, and will continue to use it just because it's cheap and works well and is easy to set up and maintain. I think if Shimano made a completely wireless system that looked as good as their current wired stuff, I'd be immensely interested. Thankfully, current-era Campy shifters look pretty sweet and many of their components still look good. The new 12-speed is sadly not as pretty. Seems like they're in a bit of a transition zone right now. As for me with this bike, I've watched videos on how to set up and tune the system, I just hope it works. Electricity is still a bit magic because you can't see what's going on, just the result. Well, unless you had an Oscilloscope or something.

PilotFishBob 

He'a a madman! A madman, I tells ya!! Pretty cool, I'm interested in the final result and a ride report. The black frame and components go together nicely., this would be more aesthetically problematic with other frame colors, I think.

Bianchigirll 

FWIW Zap was much simpler to set up, but it only ran the RD.

Nice looking bike. Is there enough cable to put the battery behind the seat or on a handlebar bottle mount like a Minoura?

John E

In my opinion, everyone is missing the greatest single benefit of electronic shifting, which is the ability to provide shift controls at multiple points on the handlebars by wiring switches in parallel. Brifters had to accommodate cables and mechanical linkage, but there is no need to retain that particular form factor and functionality when going electronic.

Maybe it's because I worked in semiconductors and digital signal processing for 35 years and now teach computer science and electrical engineering at university, but electronic shift has caught my interest (but not yet my wallet) the way indexed shifting, brifters, and especially trigger shifters never could. However, because I work in high speed wireless communications, including the Internet of Things, wireless control scares me, for security/hacking reasons.

TenGrainBread 

Shift button location is one interesting and totally different advancement. The other is what Shimano and SRAM are doing with the software that comes with the systems. You can tell the system which button does what. You can tell it how fast or slow you want the shifts to be. You can have it automatically shift the front derailleur based on where you are in the cassette. You can have the shift buttons just be "up" and "down" and have the system automatically shift to the chainring/cog combo that is next sequentially in the gear chart. You can have the front derailleur automatically trim regardless of indexing. Lots of cool features.

gugie 

Them Russians will program your shifters so the bike will only turn right...

RiddleOfSteel

I think your point is extremely valid. Shimano (at the very least) have "sprint shifters" that are run in parallel to the normal shifters, and are for as they obviously state, shifting while sprinting [in the drops]. A number of riders use those satellite or sprint shifters at the top of the bars for handling shifting duty on long grueling climbs when having hands on the hoods is not necessary.

I think we know why electronic shifting has retained the "brifter" form factor, and it will likely continue. What would be great is the ability to run a classic stem/bar/brake lever combination and have those "sprint shifters" actually be the only ones. Mount them right by or under the brake lever hood and have them control the derailleurs there. That would be extremely clean looking, especially if paired with a fully wireless setup.

As to wireless, SRAM has been running their E-Tap system as such without issue, either via hack or via signal confusion, for a number of years. It was a valid concern initially, but SRAM seems to have done a good job with the system. At this point I would trust that system.

Di2, as they are the most prolific of the electronic shifting groupsets, are coming down in price. Dura-Ace 7970 (10-speed Di2), the first generation (and also only compatible with itself), is nearly a decade old, but has the optimized shifter/lever body that the later Di2 iterations enjoy. Ultegra 6770 (10-speed Di2) is not much younger, but has the E-Tubes interface and can be paired with newer systems. And since both of those are still 10-speed, one does not have to give up a nice set of wheels with the 8-10 speed freehub.

RiddleOfSteel

Thanks!

The battery/brain/DTI box was meant to be mounted right around the BB area in V1 form. Some have mount systems for on top of the down tube, others stick it below, being completely eclipsed by the crank and chainrings. I could still do this, the only issue is showing all that mount hardware, which I think would not look good. Plus, the words would be upside down--the horror! Frames were either made for EPS with DTI box mounting bosses (how very era-specific!) or were adapted via a bayonet-type bottle cage mount extension.

The DTI box has specified wire lengths to the FD, RD, and up the down tube to the junction box. Only a red-to-red extension wire is made for extra length, at least as far as I have researched, so the pieces are meant to be where they are. Running it up the seat post would be another long stretch of exposure where I'd have to be very clever. I only want to be very clever on the down tube and part of the drive side chain stay, if I can help it. Like I said a few posts above, with V2, Campagnolo allowed the battery/DTI box to be placed inside the frameset via slimming and elongating its form. From there, there is enough cable to run it to everything needed. I didn't want to pay more for a Chorus V2, and have potential compatibility issues--I just wanted to get it all to work with its original group. Chorus V2 connectors are the same as V1, so I'll have to do more research into everything on that. I honestly would have no problem drilling a hole in the bottom of the BB shell to run a wire in/out. The fact that there are tons of frames with BB shell holes and cutouts is a wonderful precedent. I even have a grommet for it!

Bayonet style off the bottle cage:


Frame-specific mounting on top of the down tube. Internal cable/wire routing.


Frame-specific bottom-of-the-down-tube mounting style, also for internal cable/wire use.

RiddleOfSteel

Thanks! I am anxious to find out as well. I know how the bike rides generally, and with a number of wheel and tire setups, but not yet with this groupset. The brake levers feel awesome to pull, that much I know for sure. The matte/satin black is indeed the absolute key to making this work aesthetically. Heck, any wired electronic shifting setup. I was very much considering snagging a Di2 setup for my Prologue, which is black/dark grey, but then I didn't want to spend more money on it and hey, the bike is together and working very well. Not to mention the fact that the cables are running cleanly. I was going to have the hardest time figuring out what to do with the unused shifter bosses.

repechage

I initially thought this was an early April 1 post.
interesting.
makes one think the SRAM wireless units would be much easier. Not Campagnolo of course.

RiddleOfSteel

Hahahaha.

Yeah, the SRAM system would be so easy to set up, but then I'd have SRAM on my bike....

Campagnolo at least keeps it classy looking--as classy as possible given the lack of silver pieces.