clones2

Want to get your opinions on proper "etiquette" for moving up positions in a road race. I use the quotes...because the more I race...the more questionable stuff I see.

I'm really tired of people fighting for spots in the middle of the pack with like 30 miles to go in a road race. I've seen guys move up in a single file race...point a finger like they're putting on a turn signal, and basically physically force guys out of their 10th place spot. This is during the middle race with nothing special going on. If you're going to move up like that, shouldn't you just be forced to sit out in the wind until something moves your way, find a teammate, or move to the front and do a little work?

Is this "just how it is"? Does this crap fly in the higher categories, 3's etc...? Not sure I'm going to react very favorably when I've done the proper work to get in a good position and some guy tries to shoulder me off a wheel when we're just cruising along.

echappist

what's proper? hell i donno. Other than initiating contact (incidental contact notwithstanding), i do all sorts of things including: catch the wheel of a side blaster, straddle just the inside of the double yellow line and wait for an opening, bid my time in the middle of the pack for an opening and move up a row at a time, recognize a brief lull in a race when people bunch up and put in a few hard pedal strokes to move from the middle to the front, etc.

your question is more regarding contact and not regarding moving up. if you are drafting properly and protecting your front wheel, no one's gonna move you off of it. the only time i get to slot forward is when another racer loses concentration, lets 1/2 a wheel worth of a gap open, and that's where i slide in.

the only time i got moved off a wheel was when a girl did it to me. Her field is usually 20-people deep and as a stronger rider, she basically ride with 5-6 other riders all the time after the weaker riders get ridden off. We were double-file at the time, and she was just a bit in front. I'm sitting closer to the middle of the road and she was on the right hand side, and for some reason, she decided to try to nudge me out of the way and attack. I got pushed aside a bit and let out "what the hell." So yeah, if you want to ride like an idiot, you can also move people off.

there's a thread started a while back about moving people off. I suggest you give it a read

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ne-off-a-wheel

grolby

Plenty of relevant info can be found here: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ne-off-a-wheel

In general, trying to use physical contact to grab spots and move up is verboten. You will hear people start describing exceptions and examples, but I'm going to tell you: don't touch other riders. The exceptions aren't important when it comes to gaining position during normal race situations (i.e. not the last lap).

What you are describing with riders pointing at a spot and forcing guys out sounds like plain ol' stealing a wheel. Please correct me if you're seeing lots of shoulder contact, but I don't think so. As long as a rider does not use physical contact to try and force a rider out of a spot and does not change lines dangerously fast, this is totally legit, if a bit aggressive. As far as I'm concerned, the "etiquette" is "don't ride in a way that endangers fellow competitors." Tempered with the understanding that more aggressive moves should really be saved for appropriate points in the race.

But overall, moving up in a race isn't so much about etiquette as it is about technique. Getting better at it is about improving bike handling skills, comfort in a group and ability to move quickly through gaps when they open up. Moving up through the middle of the peloton is an incredibly valuable skill, and it's one that takes time to develop.

Edit: You don't have to just let someone take a wheel away from you, by the way. This works because it can be fairly easy to get someone to move off by drifting toward them. This doesn't work on experienced riders. On the other hand, it's generally not possible to hold a wheel forever; if someone gets their bars in front of you, they can pretty much do what they want.

mattm

I agree it's silly to fight for a wheel if it's not the last few laps of a crit, or last few kms of an RR.

But, people will always do it. Usually not worth fighting to keep the wheel if it's not close to the end of the race, so just shrug and move on.

Racer Ex 

You've got the typical Cat 4/5 mind set. 3/3 of the riders want to be at the front 1/3 of the race and get a bit miffed because the other 2/3 want the same thing. Fighting for a wheel with 30 miles to go is no less silly than whining when someone takes YOUR wheel with 30 miles to go. In either case neither has anything to do with the actual race which is...up there.

BTW 30 miles to go in a road race is a nice TT for me. I've won from 60 miles out. Maybe the guys are being Cat 4's or maybe they are not just obtuse automatons waiting to get 12th in the field sprint and are looking for an opportunity to go.

Stop fighting for wheels mid pack and start figuring out how to actually race. If you think you're a sprinter you're not, unless you've won every field sprint you've been in since you started racing, and they can hear you before they see you.

DerHoggz

I'd say you if you think you are "any specialist" as a Cat. 4/5 you are not, you might just suck less at it. I know, I'm a Cat. 4.

Jandro 

Who cares? As you said yourself, you've got 30 miles to go. Find another wheel and do the same thing. Or, hey, go off the front, try an attack to shake up the field. If you've got legs, make your way up to the pointy end and start driving the pace a bit. See if others want to work as well.

Sitting in the bunch and crying about people surfing better than you are is silly. Grab your own board and get to surfing yourself!

rankin116

"It's a bike race, not a tea party."

-Girlanachronism

clones2

All good points - I got a good laugh out of the other thread about "moving someone off a wheel", which is the reason for this post. I've been doing the 4/5 races for over a year now, and getting pretty decent with top 10's in 3 out my 4 last races...getting close to the first win. I try to race smart and keep myself out of potentially tight spots until its "time to go" near the end of races. I'm just a little surprised with the amount of pack jostling Ive seen lately just through the normal mid points of a race. The last "4" race saw a couple sent to the hospital from a mid race crash...

It's been a couple races where Ive given up with this stuff and moved to the rear...both times with under 5 to go Ive been able to find a spot to move up towards the front for the sprint finish with minimal work...

Just wanted to get some insight as I make my way towards the 3/4 races.

Jandro 

You mention you've had multiple top 10 finishes. If all you're doing is sitting and waiting in the pack for the 'under 5 to go' and moving up for the sprint. You should have fresh legs. If you're any kind of sprinter, you should be getting better results.

Maybe instead of giving up and moving to the back, move to the front. That way, instead of having to start moving to the front with 5 (five what, btw? laps, kms?) to go, you're already in position to attack and try to make something happen. Finishing top 10 in a lot of sprint finishes isn't really teaching you anything (other than you're not a sprinter). Going OTF or being able to respond to attacks, or even better being involved in one, is going to teach you a lot more.

$0.02 from a lowly cat 4 with a handful of top 10/top 5 finishes. Most of which did not come down to a sprint.

echappist

what does this have to do with moving up in a pack? Good pack awareness is important for everyone from sprinters to the breakaway rouleurs. Only people who don't need it and can succeed are the mountain goats who get geography thin the pack for them.

that said, since you did get it started,

RX was a cat-4 breakaway specialist. I'm sure a few others here (including myself) figured out as a cat-4 that they are good at creating breaks and making it stick. All but 2 of my upgrade to cat-3 came from breaks. I then promptly earned another 4 upgrade points in my first cat-3 race, in a break. A lot of perceptive in cat-4 figure out what sort of tactics suit them, and i'm not gonna go bark up the wrong tree going for field sprints when a) i don't have the raw power to compete and b) i do have a pretty decent aerobic capacity (thanks mom!).

Knowing your power profile and using it as a guide is knowing thyself. Sometimes all the work you do in the world won't turn you from a slow-twitcher into a fasttwitcher.

This doesn't mean i don't work on my sprints, as when you end up with two others heading toward the line, you still need to sprint. This just means that when your pocket jacks turn into a triple on the flop, you bet big on the flop (attack early) so that you don't let river cards to get shown so that someone else hit a full house on the river (i.e. sprint). Others who are really good at this (e.g. RX) bet big pre-flop b/c they almost always hold they cycling equivalent of pocket aces. OTOH, if you hit 4 of the same suit on the flop and no one else is betting big (i.e. no attacks), it's worthwhile for you to wait it out and pounce when you catch that 5th card on the river (i.e. sprint).

Grumpy McTrumpy

the first ten miles of battenkill is a massive dogfight for position.

the reason for this becomes very clear in the next ten.

in any road race, unless you are already within a tacit understanding that nobody is going to "do" anything for a long period of time, then the fight for positions never actually ends. It may subside a bit, but if you think things are static in the peloton, then you might discover yourself getting shuffled back while thinking that you "earned" your spot in the front. The fact is that you have to keep doing it from beginning to end.

globecanvas

Yeah, my 2c, maintaining position is more about situational awareness and focus than anything else. Awareness to know when you need to be in the front and mental focus on getting and staying there.

Actually, the more I race, the more important I think mental focus is. If you have the physical ability to finish with the pack, but not the physical ability to ride eveyrbody off your wheel at will -- in other words, if you have comparable physical abilities to almost everyone else -- then the only comparative advantage anyone has is mental.

merlinextraligh

I think there are a couple of things at work here. One, there's a risk/reward issue, as well as a question of energy efficiency.

There are times, with 30 miles to go, it matters where you are in the pack. to be far enough up front to go with a move, to avoid the accordian at the back, or in lower categories to get ahead of people who are sketchy, or about to be dropped, for examples. So there are times where you need to make the effort to move up.

Second, there's the issue of being comfortable safely moving through a pack. As you get better moving around a pack, it's easier to move up positions, without blantantly contesting for wheels. In the OP's example, you can just wait for someone to be a bit inatentive, and take advantage of the gap it creates. Or move up when there's a lull, or fill in a gap when there's a surge.

So, to the OP, I'd say, avoid silly fights for postion, protect your wheel when it matters that you maintain position, and work on your own ability to move through a pack so you can maintain and improve position without having to "fight" for wheels.

shovelhd

*** etiquette. It's not about that. Learn how to defend your wheel, then you won't have this "problem". Stop worrying about what others are doing and focus on what you should be doing.

FWIW I tapped a guy's hip in Sunday's race because we were three abreast, I was on the inside, he was in the middle, we were in the gutter and if he moved over any more he was going to put me into the jersey barrier. He shifts right 6", nothing said, no issue. This is how racers handle it.

Ygduf

the biggest change for me going from 4s last year to 3s this year was the churn in the pack.

I started the year out giving up my position easily, slowly moving backwards until I hit the back, they rode up to the front and started over. I was getting creamed in flat RRs (that I should be good at.)

Once I figured out that it was just going to continue as long as I let it, I stopped letting it happen. If you want in line ahead of my you better be on my team, or get your bars ahead of mine AND be willing to make contact with me. I'm not going to let myself get crashed out, but I'm going to hold my place long enough that you'll think I'm willing to let myself get bumped before I move.

That'll deter most guys, and people who get ahead and legit take my wheel, well, that's racing.

What Shovel says is right. **** etiquette. Be safe, but moving up or fighting to stay up is the way of life in a race.

tetonrider

x2. pretty easy to tell who is a racer and who is not based on how they respond to normal contact. some riders are very freaked out by it.

that said, no need to be a d!ck unnecessarily. if one feels they really have to force their way in somewhere, they may be so focused on one spot and failing to notice other paths of less resistance.

agree with merlin's post--give up a wheel when there is minimal cost. defend it when it means something. make casual friends in the pack through these little gestures; i find they are often repaid later on.

shovelhd

Crunch time is tough for little guys like me. If someone the size of ygduf wants my wheel, he'll get a fight which he'll probably win. So when I see the situation developing, I check for my second and third options. Patience is critical.

Ygduf

In the 5s and 4s I never needed it, and was too nice a guy to use it, but being 30+ lbs heavier than most of the 3s I race against has come in handy in the hundreds of little contests of will in a race.

Coincidentally, when I learned to get "meaner" I started doing much better. Racing isn't for the feint of heart.

And some races it still takes half the race for me to get into the right mindset.

Fat Boy

It depends on the course. There are some races where you can move around no problem. There are other races where you better be on your game all day or you'll be at the caboose and find no way to move up even if you have the legs to do so. Narrow roads and a yellow line make it tough sometimes. I'm not big enough to move anyone around...not sure I would if I were as it's not really my style. I've spent some races almost constantly moving forward, though and it usually pays off. You have to be at the front at turn-arounds and often when starting climbs. It doesn't really matter if you're 30 miles out or 3. You only get a free ride when you have teammates OTF, and even then you need to put yourself in a position to help them or respond to the catch.

rkwaki

What's a road race?

As for fighting for position? Starts in the parking lot...

mattm

You would say that..

grolby

Yes, as a smaller guy it's easier to get pushed around a little bit. A 180lb dude looming over me through a corner is hard to ignore. I do try and resist, but as I race in higher categories, riders just get better at using superior size to their advantage. In the 4s, it was pretty easy to not let a big guy move me off a wheel. Against 3s, 2s, 1s, they tend to be a bit savvier. Oh well, the game gets harder.

The plus side is that I can fit through gaps that most other riders can't. And of course I get to hear a lot of bellyaching about how poor the draft is behind me (especially when I'm riding in the drops, as I tend to do in crits). Though that does start to get seriously old after a while.

rkwaki

It's like following a blade of grass you little fugger...

rkwaki

Well played...




Alas it is true...