Not Often That I Get Angry - However...
#26
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I know Randy had a pile of bikes that he sold off as one huge lot, but it appears as if he had six which he sold separately from the main lot. Is this correct, Randy?
Disagree. The shop took his bike. The shop then lost his bike.
Between that time period of Randy being told the Roo was not at the shop and the shop happening to find it again, the bike was - practically and legally speaking - lost property.
If this had been any other customer other than Randy and his gazillion bicycles, this visit would have ended in harsh words and a police report.
When anyone sends a bicycle in for servicing, one has a reasonable belief to expect to get it back after paying service fees after a reasonable amount of time for said servicing. I don't care what the shop's explanation was, the fact is that they were in possession of that Quintana Roo but denied being in possession of it at that time period made it their problem at the time.
Randy's subsequent predicament may be a grey area for recovery from a legal standpoint, but from an ethical standpoint, that shop owes it to him to make it right - especially as any other customer could have turned the shop's mistake into a huge mess and a series of highly damaging online reviews.
-Kurt
Between that time period of Randy being told the Roo was not at the shop and the shop happening to find it again, the bike was - practically and legally speaking - lost property.
If this had been any other customer other than Randy and his gazillion bicycles, this visit would have ended in harsh words and a police report.
When anyone sends a bicycle in for servicing, one has a reasonable belief to expect to get it back after paying service fees after a reasonable amount of time for said servicing. I don't care what the shop's explanation was, the fact is that they were in possession of that Quintana Roo but denied being in possession of it at that time period made it their problem at the time.
Randy's subsequent predicament may be a grey area for recovery from a legal standpoint, but from an ethical standpoint, that shop owes it to him to make it right - especially as any other customer could have turned the shop's mistake into a huge mess and a series of highly damaging online reviews.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 07-17-19 at 05:29 PM.
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Unfortunately, Not sure if it can legally be considered "negligence" on the part if the bike shop, unless there's some sort of contractual agreement with both parties that then might obligate the shop to practice "reasonable care" in the way they store and handle the bikes in their possesion.
All that can be brought up is an expression of disappointment from the bike owner for them momentarily losing track of the bike, and it's wholey up to the shop to decide (for goodwill), if they will compensate or not.....
All that can be brought up is an expression of disappointment from the bike owner for them momentarily losing track of the bike, and it's wholey up to the shop to decide (for goodwill), if they will compensate or not.....
#29
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If every bike shop were like that, it'd be easier to hand the bikes over to a thief directly and cut out the middleman.
Unfortunately, Not sure if it can legally be considered "negligence" on the part if the bike shop, unless there's some sort of contractual agreement with both parties that then might obligate the shop to practice "reasonable care" in the way they store and handle the bikes in their possesion.
All that can be brought up is an expression of disappointment from the bike owner for them momentarily losing track of the bike, and it's wholey up to the shop to decide (for goodwill), if they will compensate or not.....
All that can be brought up is an expression of disappointment from the bike owner for them momentarily losing track of the bike, and it's wholey up to the shop to decide (for goodwill), if they will compensate or not.....
However, you bring up a very good point about the obligation of a bike shop to keep their customer's bikes well kept, as a general rule.
Other than the claim check, there are no legal documents to protect the bike owner if their LBS damages their bike with impunity - if anything, the bike owner may be at the complete whims of whatever the shop cares to hang up on their wall that day as their "rules."
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 07-17-19 at 06:54 PM.
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Then they found the bike. Returned it. Transaction complete. What are they liable for other than returning the bike? Certainly not liable or responsible for third party transactions where they had zero knowledge.
If Randy was reasonable, he would have compensated the buyer of the bike the value of the bike he didn't have. That way, when the shop returned the bike, Randy could sell it again, at the value of the bike. Any loss of money is entirely on Randy.
If Randy was reasonable, he would have compensated the buyer of the bike the value of the bike he didn't have. That way, when the shop returned the bike, Randy could sell it again, at the value of the bike. Any loss of money is entirely on Randy.
#31
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Randy's story illustrates, rather painfully, the prudence of paperwork whenever a capital asset is left in care of a shop.
When I bring a bike to a shop to sell it on consignment, there is a written contract with the shop. If I retrieve the bike before it sells, they provide a release form for me to sign. If the shop sells the bicycle then they pay me for it, mark it off the inventory, and my signature on the payment cheque plus a release form are the proofs that I received compensation.
If I bring a bicycle to a shop for repair they issue a repair ticket. The ticket will often designate a maximum storage period after which the bicycle is considered "abandoned property" if not reclaimed and the repair fees paid. I either pay for the repair and retrieve the bicycle or, after the legal or contract period has expired, the shop has legal right to sell the bike to gain recompense for the parts & repair costs. Same deal if a bicycle is left "in storage" with the shop. The storage ticket will have terms and fees explicitly stated, so both the owner and the custodian have a written record.
Always a paper trail.
The one time I got really cheated on this was when a guitar I had placed on consignment was not returned to me and the shop went out of business. I contacted the former owner of the store but received neither recompense nor an apology. In my opinion the shop should have kept sufficient control of its consignment inventory to contact me before they went out of business so that I could retrieve my guitar.
Alas.
Best wishes to Randy in whatever resolution he seeks.
When I bring a bike to a shop to sell it on consignment, there is a written contract with the shop. If I retrieve the bike before it sells, they provide a release form for me to sign. If the shop sells the bicycle then they pay me for it, mark it off the inventory, and my signature on the payment cheque plus a release form are the proofs that I received compensation.
If I bring a bicycle to a shop for repair they issue a repair ticket. The ticket will often designate a maximum storage period after which the bicycle is considered "abandoned property" if not reclaimed and the repair fees paid. I either pay for the repair and retrieve the bicycle or, after the legal or contract period has expired, the shop has legal right to sell the bike to gain recompense for the parts & repair costs. Same deal if a bicycle is left "in storage" with the shop. The storage ticket will have terms and fees explicitly stated, so both the owner and the custodian have a written record.
Always a paper trail.
The one time I got really cheated on this was when a guitar I had placed on consignment was not returned to me and the shop went out of business. I contacted the former owner of the store but received neither recompense nor an apology. In my opinion the shop should have kept sufficient control of its consignment inventory to contact me before they went out of business so that I could retrieve my guitar.
Alas.
Best wishes to Randy in whatever resolution he seeks.
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#32
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Then they found the bike. Returned it. Transaction complete. What are they liable for other than returning the bike? Certainly not liable or responsible for third party transactions where they had zero knowledge.
If Randy was reasonable, he would have compensated the buyer of the bike the value of the bike he didn't have. That way, when the shop returned the bike, Randy could sell it again, at the value of the bike. Any loss of money is entirely on Randy.
If Randy was reasonable, he would have compensated the buyer of the bike the value of the bike he didn't have. That way, when the shop returned the bike, Randy could sell it again, at the value of the bike. Any loss of money is entirely on Randy.
Compensation would have been a smart move - but, since neither of us were there, perhaps there was something that made compensation a bit awkward. I can't flatly come out and put it all on Randy's shoulders without having seen it firsthand.
-Kurt
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Legally, yes, on point #1 . But there was a point in between it being lost and found that Randy would have had a very fair reason to be extremely upset at the shop.
Compensation would have been a smart move - but, since neither of us were there, perhaps there was something that made compensation a bit awkward. I can't flatly come out and put it all on Randy's shoulders without having seen it firsthand.
-Kurt
Compensation would have been a smart move - but, since neither of us were there, perhaps there was something that made compensation a bit awkward. I can't flatly come out and put it all on Randy's shoulders without having seen it firsthand.
-Kurt
Mistakes happen. Extremely upset would be if the shop refused to compensate for a lost bike. But they didn't. They returned the bike. Any financial damage done is the entirely on Randy when he overcompensated his buyer. Asking the shop to pay more than actual value is what galls me.
#34
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Not in favor of that. Must have missed it somewhere up in the thread.
-Kurt
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I disagree with those who say the shop has no legal liability to you. Sounds to me like the shop was a bailee for hire when they accepted the bike, and as such they had a duty of care. They failed in that duty when they did not return the bike on a timely basis and you were forced to incur loss in order to fulfill your own obligations. That the shop returned the bike AFTER you had suffered damage does not relieve them of liability. If the shop was not a bailee for hire, there are other possible theories under which the shop might be liable. In short, and while from longtime lurking I respect both hazetguy and iab, I am quite doubtful that what they have said in their posts is a fair representation of either the legal or the moral issues.
The trouble is that while the shop is likely liable, almost certainly it is not worth pursuing as a legal matter. Therefore, as many have suggested, you should ask your buyer if he or she will exchange, and if the buyer is agreeable, ask the shop to cover the costs of the exchange. If the buyer will not agree, you should ask the shop to cover the difference in the value of the two bikes. The shop may or may not agree, or the shop may offer some compromise. Given the value at stake, you should probably accept any such offer, and if there is no such offer or if the offer is stingy in your view, walk away and deal no longer with the shop. Most litigation over small amounts ends up being a question of how much aggravation you are willing to suffer, and usually the answer is not as much as litigation inflicts. Being right is often the only reward there is for being right.
The trouble is that while the shop is likely liable, almost certainly it is not worth pursuing as a legal matter. Therefore, as many have suggested, you should ask your buyer if he or she will exchange, and if the buyer is agreeable, ask the shop to cover the costs of the exchange. If the buyer will not agree, you should ask the shop to cover the difference in the value of the two bikes. The shop may or may not agree, or the shop may offer some compromise. Given the value at stake, you should probably accept any such offer, and if there is no such offer or if the offer is stingy in your view, walk away and deal no longer with the shop. Most litigation over small amounts ends up being a question of how much aggravation you are willing to suffer, and usually the answer is not as much as litigation inflicts. Being right is often the only reward there is for being right.
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i guess my point is that obviously op had multiple bikes at this shop that they were collecting all at once. one of the bikes op had there got overlooked by this owner he was talking with that day. maybe one of the employees had moved it out of it's normal spot, or it just wasn't in the same area as all of op's other bikes.
who knows, if op really pressed the fact to the shop owner that he didn't remember taking the bike home and insisted that this owner look harder for the missing bike, it may have turned up. hard to say without hearing the owner's side of things. from op's post, it sounds like the owners insisted he had taken the bike home already, apparently convincingly enough that op agreed that he must have and assumed someone stole it from his shed.
if it were me, and it weren't, but if it were, i would have been pretty confused after being told i took the bike home already, having no memory of doing so. i would have went home and checked, saw it wasn't there, and called the shop back up and been like "look guys, i don't remember taking the bike home, and the bike isn't home. can you have another look around the shop?"
but then again, i can't imagine having so many valuable vintage bicycles in various places that i could easily lose track of one, so it's hard for me to really try to imagine how i would handle the situation.
in the end i just hope everything works out positively for everyone involved, it's obvious no one was out to harm anyone else.
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That's your solution right there.
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#38
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i guess my point is that obviously op had multiple bikes at this shop that they were collecting all at once. one of the bikes op had there got overlooked by this owner he was talking with that day. maybe one of the employees had moved it out of it's normal spot, or it just wasn't in the same area as all of op's other bikes.
who knows, if op really pressed the fact to the shop owner that he didn't remember taking the bike home and insisted that this owner look harder for the missing bike, it may have turned up. hard to say without hearing the owner's side of things. from op's post, it sounds like the owners insisted he had taken the bike home already, apparently convincingly enough that op agreed that he must have and assumed someone stole it from his shed.
-Kurt
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I still appreciate that Randy didn't just satisfy a legal requirement to the buyer.
He made it right.
Wouldn't it be awesome if the shop could do the same?
What we're legally required to do doesn't always match with what's the right thing to do.
He made it right.
Wouldn't it be awesome if the shop could do the same?
What we're legally required to do doesn't always match with what's the right thing to do.
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Last edited by Hudson308; 07-17-19 at 08:02 PM.
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Wouldn't that be something if somebody at the shop "Beullered" the bike the week Randy went to pick it up.......
Sorry Randy, just funnin around..... things are just getting too serious in this thread.....
Sorry Randy, just funnin around..... things are just getting too serious in this thread.....
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#42
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A bit of clearing up...
At shop one, in Thunder Bay, many of my bikes have been on display for years. I loaned the bikes to them for their display purposes and to store my bikes safely. This is the shop that said I had already picked up the Quintanna Roo, which was not true. I, honestly, could not 100% remember if I had or had not picked the bike up. They were 100% sure that I had. Therein lies the mistake and who made the mistake.
I sold my bikes to shop two, another shop, over 1000 miles away. My bikes went with 100 others (three sellers involved) to shop two. I had accepted money from shop two and felt obligated to do something to make up for the (apparently) lost Quintanna Roo. I offered, on the phone (remember that I was picking up my bikes to be loaded and shipped with an hour or so - not much time to seek options), the buyer a choice - partial refund or a bike of equal or greater value. Needless to say, I was hoping that he would opt for a partial refund. Nope, he wanted another bike. I could have subbed the Cyclops, or my Legnano Gran Premio or my Rabeneick 120d. The Cyclops was chosen, even though I hated loosing it. But my conscience remains clear. My customer got looked after.
I will not ask the fellow at shop two to help me make amends for a mistake made at shop one, in Thunder Bay. The problem, really, is mine and mine alone. I will state my case to the owners of shop one and see what happens. I will report the outcome, if anyone is interested.
All in all, things worked out not too bad. Yes, I lost the Cyclops but I did or will get the Quintanna Roo back, which is a plus since I thought that both were gone. I am not at all upset with the guys at shop one. They have always been kind, friendly, generous and helpful when I go there. I only want them to know that they goofed and then see how they react.
At shop one, in Thunder Bay, many of my bikes have been on display for years. I loaned the bikes to them for their display purposes and to store my bikes safely. This is the shop that said I had already picked up the Quintanna Roo, which was not true. I, honestly, could not 100% remember if I had or had not picked the bike up. They were 100% sure that I had. Therein lies the mistake and who made the mistake.
I sold my bikes to shop two, another shop, over 1000 miles away. My bikes went with 100 others (three sellers involved) to shop two. I had accepted money from shop two and felt obligated to do something to make up for the (apparently) lost Quintanna Roo. I offered, on the phone (remember that I was picking up my bikes to be loaded and shipped with an hour or so - not much time to seek options), the buyer a choice - partial refund or a bike of equal or greater value. Needless to say, I was hoping that he would opt for a partial refund. Nope, he wanted another bike. I could have subbed the Cyclops, or my Legnano Gran Premio or my Rabeneick 120d. The Cyclops was chosen, even though I hated loosing it. But my conscience remains clear. My customer got looked after.
I will not ask the fellow at shop two to help me make amends for a mistake made at shop one, in Thunder Bay. The problem, really, is mine and mine alone. I will state my case to the owners of shop one and see what happens. I will report the outcome, if anyone is interested.
All in all, things worked out not too bad. Yes, I lost the Cyclops but I did or will get the Quintanna Roo back, which is a plus since I thought that both were gone. I am not at all upset with the guys at shop one. They have always been kind, friendly, generous and helpful when I go there. I only want them to know that they goofed and then see how they react.
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#43
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Randy, my personal opinion is that any buyer with any integrity at all would gladly swap the Cyclops back for the QR.
I know I would.
I know I would.
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#44
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Easy to want heads to roll from the safety of a keyboard. After a cool down period the OP has taken into account personal relationships and accountability on his part as well (no matter how small). No one is perfect and the moral of the story is that no one will take care of or keep track of your possessions better than you.
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In case you haven't seen, Cyclops thread in Appraisals. Probably a coincidence.
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...s-bicycle.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...s-bicycle.html
#47
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Easy to want heads to roll from the safety of a keyboard. After a cool down period the OP has taken into account personal relationships and accountability on his part as well (no matter how small). No one is perfect and the moral of the story is that no one will take care of or keep track of your possessions better than you.
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#48
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Uh no
I would have been a whole lot more adament intially in letting the lbs know that I was certain my bike was there, to prevent this disaster.
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I would have been a whole lot more adament intially in letting the lbs know that I was certain my bike was there, to prevent this disaster.
When I picked up the Quintanna Roo, one of the two owners expressed little concern, other than to suggest that things happen. I will be seeing the other owner, the collector, on the weekend, I hope. I hope also that he will offer some kind of amend. If not, no big deal. Its just stuff and stuff is not all that important to me anymore. And...
For what it is worth, though not a Cyclops, I do now have a decent bike to use for regular riding. My first ever drop bar mountain bike which has set me back about $46.00 CND...
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#50
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"If not, no big deal. Its just stuff and stuff is not all that important to me anymore."
The best attitude to have towards this predicament. Sell the Roo and move on.
Sure the Cyclops is a nice bike, but outside of having an emotional attachment to it, it is just another bike and not worth losing more hair over it.
The best attitude to have towards this predicament. Sell the Roo and move on.
Sure the Cyclops is a nice bike, but outside of having an emotional attachment to it, it is just another bike and not worth losing more hair over it.
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