antimonysarah

I've never, ever been able to figure out how to do the Sheldon/standard roadie mount where you stand over the top tube in front of the saddle and somehow fly up and backwards and land on the saddle. I know how it's supposed to work, I can't physically figure out how to do it.

Am I right that I have to somehow figure it out if I want to captain a tandem?

Anyone who struggled with this have any tips? (Please, don't point me to the exact same video on Sheldon Brown's site. I know what the move looks like, I know most teenagers can figure it out in thirty seconds, but I can't. If it was perfectly intuitive to you you probably don't have any helpful tips -- I'm hoping to find someone else who couldn't do it and figured it out to tell me HOW.) The main issue I have is that I can't figure out any way to get myself up off the ground with my foot that far behind me (on the pedal turned to the forward horizontal position) -- my weight is well forward of that foot, and I'm not strong enough to actually lift myself off the ground via only my hands on the bars, nor can I jump high enough to get up above the saddle.

I can do the corresponding dismount, since that doesn't take strength. And on my single bike, since I have plenty of hip flexibility, I can stay in the saddle with a toe down on the ground with my saddle at the correct height, at least on a road bike with a road-bike height bottom bracket.

Alcanbrad

I am not sure how to answer given what you have said, but I'll try. It really is comprised of 2 moves. The first move is pushing down on the forward pedal while standing up on that pedal. THen second, after the bike is rolling forward and your foot is down at the 6 o'clock position, you slide onto the saddle, bring your other foot to the other pedal and then start pedaling. It doesn't have to be all one motion, make it two steps. Practice the first part which should get you rolling while standing on just one pedal.

The way we start on the tandem is I (captain) straddle the top tube and hold the bike vertical. The stoker climbs aboard and rotates the crank until the left pedal is at about 9:30 (slightly above horizontal). When ready I put my left foot on the pedal and say OK and I stand on the pedal while the stoker pedals forward, HOWEVER, and this is important (to me anyway), that first power stroke is only a quarter turn to the 6 o'clock position. If the stoker keeps pedaling while you are standing on one pedal you will not have much fun. Just give it a quarter turn of power. Practice on flat or a slight downhill.

While we are rolling after the first quarter turn power stroke, I slide onto the saddle, bring my other foot to pedal, then I say "OK" and we start pedaling. After we are up and going, I will say "pause"" and I will clip in.

If you can sit on your saddle and hold the bike up with your other foot, you can start that way but if the bike is leaning, the stoker will likely have to start the same way with their foot down. If the stoker has both feet on the pedals and the bike is leaning you may not have balance enough to stay vertical, or if the bike is vertical, you risk you both and the bike falling over the other side.

ncbikers

I understand your problem. Two things. Have your front peddle up at about 45 deg. not flat. Stand with your butt against the horn of the seat then just slide back onto the seat. This position will help steady the bike when the stoker mounts.

antimonysarah

Yeah, it's the first half I can't do. I can get up and down from the saddle to a relaxed stand in the pedals (or in one pedal with the other foot in the air) just fine. I just can only go down from there, not back up, since on the way down you can just let gravity take you there and hop down.

I'll try putting the pedal up higher, but that brings it back even further, and the problem I'm having is not having enough leverage on the pedal to get off the ground.

Possibly it really just is an upper body strength thing -- I have fairly good upper body strength for a woman who only lifts occasionally, and I think I could do the rest of captaining a tandem, but I can't do a muscleup, which is effectively the motion that lifting myself several inches off the ground via the handlebars would be.

Tandem2

Never had any instruction, just kind of figured it out with the Mrs, I straddle the top tube while the Mrs. gets clipped in, she then rotates my right crank to the 90 degree postion, I clip that foot in, press down start us rolling then clip in the left.
If your saddle height is correct, there is no lifting, simply slide back on the saddle.

Alcanbrad

Sounds like you need to work on your leg strength. The act of standing up on the forward pedal should take less muscle strength than it takes to go up one stair in your house.

Machka 

How do you mount a single bicycle?

For me, mounting a tandem was no different than mounting a single bicycle.


With my single road bicycle ...

-- I step over the top tube and stand over the top tube with both feet on the ground and hands on the handlebars.

-- With my left foot, I nudge the pedal around to about a 9:00 - 10:00 position, and clip in.

-- If I feel it is necessary, I might bring that pedal up to a 10:00 position ... sometimes even a bit higher if I'm going to be starting on a hill.

-- I push off with that foot, putting my weight mainly on that foot, and a little bit on my handlebars.

-- I ease into the saddle.

-- By now my right pedal is up, and so I catch it with my right foot, and I'm off!


If I'm on flat ground or a gentle downhill slope, I can actually push off with my left foot, putting my weight mainly on that foot, and a little bit on my handlebars ... and just coast like that, more or less standing with part of my thigh resting against the nose of the saddle for balance. And then I can sit whenever I feel like it.


When it comes to the tandem, I'm the stoker, but Rowan and I both do exactly what I've described above.

-- We step over the top tube and stand over the top tube with both feet on the ground and hands on the handlebars.

-- With Rowan's left foot, he nudges the pedal around to about a 9:00 - 10:00 position, and clips in. Then I clip in.

-- If he feels it is necessary, he might bring that pedal up to a 10:00 position ... sometimes even a bit higher if we're going to be starting on a hill.

-- He pushes off with that foot, putting our weight mainly on our left pedals, and a little bit on my handlebars.

-- We ease into the saddle.

-- By now our right pedals are up, and so we catch them with our right feet, and we're off!

Machka 

You say something puzzling ...

I'm trying to picture what you're doing.



Maybe what you need to do is to step back with your other foot, the one on the ground, so that your butt is resting against the saddle. Since I've lost weight, my shorts are loose now, and one of the issues I'm having is that I stand with my butt against the saddle just before I start going, and when I raise myself up into the saddle, my shorts catch on the nose of the saddle.

Looigi

Mounting a tandem with my wife as stoker, we both do exactly the same thing in synchrony: Stand astride the bike with one foot down (left or right depending on the cant) and the other clipped in and forward of TDC by about 30 degrees. Push down on the crank with that foot sliding onto the saddle, then clip in with the other foot. Dismounting is essentially the reverse. We tried and practiced the method with the stoker seated and clipped in, but never liked it.

Machka 

Yep ... we tried that once or twice and it just did not work for us at all.

antimonysarah

I am! My butt (well, really, my lower back; standing on the ground the saddle hits higher than what I'd call my butt) is pressed up against the point of the saddle. My foot on the pedal is still well behind my center of mass, though, in that position. Are you saying that's not true for you and other people?

antimonysarah

This is exactly the motion I said I can't do and am asking for help on.... I can't do that right now, even on a single bike.

rm -rf

Here's the video you mentioned, on the Starting and Stopping page.

A couple of questions:
Are you doing the "stand on one pedal and push off along the ground a few times" method?

Once the bike is moving, are you standing on the downward pedal, then straightening your leg, moving up and back into the saddle?

Lifting off the saddle
While coasting along, with one foot down, you should be able to stand on that pedal. Can you lift off the saddle and move forward? I assume so, since you can stop okay. This is the reverse motion of starting up and getting into the saddle.

Center of balance
You say:
"I can't figure out any way to get myself up off the ground with my foot that far behind me (on the pedal turned to the forward horizontal position) -- my weight is well forward of that foot, and I'm not strong enough to actually lift myself off the ground via only my hands on the bars"


That's interesting. I had to try it on my bike to see where my center of balance is. For me, it's just about directly above the forward pedal. Then, standing on one leg, with the pedal down, I have some pressure on my hands, which means my center of balance is a little ahead of the pedal. But I don't need to push off hard on the bars to stay upright.

Is your saddle all the way forward on the rails?

While coasting, if you stand up on one pedal, off the saddle, are you having to push back hard on the bars to keep from falling forward?

~~~

Momentum
I originally wondered if your starting problem is related to not having enough forward speed from the first pedal stroke. I've stalled out when I've been in too easy a gear, or on a steeper grade, and had to start again with the push-off method.


Try this experiment
Find a slight downhill quiet road.
Shift a couple of clicks to a harder gear before stopping. That will give you more speed for the first pedal stroke.

Set the pedal a little above horizontal.
Go, pressing down to the bottom of the pedal stroke. You should have enough speed to not need to push off with the ground foot.
You should be coasting and standing up on the one leg. It sounds like you have trouble getting to this point.

Now, see if you can straighten your leg and move up and back into the saddle.

If that works, more practice to get the muscle memory working will help.

After a while, as this becomes an automatic, smooth motion, you need less start up speed from the first pedal stroke, since you can get into the saddle quickly and start pedaling with both legs.

Machka 

First of all ... how do you start a bicycle now?



Secondly somehow I've never thought of my foot as behind me because my leg (where the power is coming from) is in front of me.

I don't know ... maybe this will help?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URr-CPOKfOA

antimonysarah

Normally? No. I get on my bike by swinging a foot over the back directly into the saddle. Then I clip that foot in (if on my road bike; commuter has flat pedals). I have the other toe on the ground. The entire time I have the brakes held so that the bike stays put. Then I push straight up with the toe to send the bike upright, let go of the brakes and start pedaling, and (if needed) clip in a little later as I start moving.

If I stand while riding and lean forward enough that I'm in front of the saddle, yes, I'm pushing back hard. At that point my elbows are locked, which gives me much more strength putting my weight on the bars. If I tried to dismount from there in slow-motion, as I bend my arms they buckle and I fall the rest of the way. If I do it at speed it's not obvious that I'm freefalling for a split second. Normally while standing the saddle is between my thighs -- if I'm doing a standing climb it thwacks into my legs with every stroke. It's not all the way forward on the rails at all, and I have a setback post -- I think it's a fairly normal road-bike amount of setback. My bars are about level with my saddle.

I'm generally holding the brakes until the last second doing this so that the back foot has something to push against as I try to lift myself up; I'm not pushing forward on the ground at all, I'm pushing straight upwards jumping up trying to get enough height to get to a point where I can either lock my elbows and/or clear the saddle. Speed might be an issue if I were wobbling/falling over as I tried to get going, but I'm not getting off the ground to begin with.

waynesulak

This is the method find the best for us. Not us on the video I just used google.

https://youtu.be/pm4Hf4izxtw

In the end each team needs to work out what is best for them.

mtseymour

This is a good way to start a tandem. However, Charlie Heggem at Cirrus taught us a variation that we prefer.

-we straddle the tandem.
-I rest my left thigh on the top tube, and clip into my left pedal. My left thigh is almost horizontal. This position is more comfortable than squeezing the top tube with my inner thighs, and also provides a wider platform to keep the tandem upright.
-my stoker sits on the saddle and clips into both pedals. Our left pedals are now in the 10 o'clock position.
-when we're ready, I say "go" and we push down on the left pedal. Since she's fully clipped in, my stoker can easily power up. While pushing down the left pedal, I step up and back onto my saddle.
-we continue to pedal while I ease into my right pedal.

My wife was skeptical about clipping in both pedals. But after a few practice runs, we find that this method is smoother and more consistent.

To dismount, I unclip my right pedal and get ready to support the top tube with the left thigh. My wife remains clipped in.

Charlie also showed us an easy way to make tight turns. While pedaling slowly, lightly squeeze the front brake to make a tighter turn.

Machka 

Don't jump ... just stand.

Do like rm -rf says ...

Move the pedal into the 10:00 position, and just gently push down to get rolling and stand on that pedal when it reaches the 6:00 position. Your other foot will be dangling. Then apply the brakes and move the dangling foot to the ground. Repeat that several times in a nice flat parking lot or something until you get comfortable with it.

Then, when you feel comfortable standing on the pedal, just ease back into the saddle.

You should not have to jump into the saddle because the saddle height should be right so that if you are standing on the pedal in the 6:00 position, the saddle should be right there, ready to sit on.


The only time I've had to sort of jump into the saddle is if I'm trying to start certain bicycles (my Bike Friday, for example) on a hill where I've got no coasting to work with at all. If I can coast, there's no jumping.

Rowan

This is a tandem, right? Are your cranks 90 degrees out of phase with the other rider's?

Carbonfiberboy 

The main thing is not to get your shorts caught on the saddle horn, especially when trying to get going in a difficult spot with people watching. I'm not just being funny. It's an issue.

The way the captain does it on a tandem doesn't have a heckuva lot to do with how one does it on a road bike. As you are already aware, and as the posted single bike videos show, on a single, one pushes down on the pedal, then the bike rolls forward with the pedal stopped at BTC, then the rider moves back onto the saddle and resumes pedaling. It's not one motion. I don't see any single road bike riders do it as one motion. Usually they push the pedal down, then sit, then fiddle with the other foot clipping in at TDC, then they pedal.

That doesn't work on a tandem if the team starts in the usual way, with the stoker clipped in, because the stoker is hammering on those pedals, getting the bike moving while the captain gets clipped into the revolving pedals. Hopefully the captain clips in as soon as their second foot hits the pedal, but not always. Every once in a while, we've had to pedal a bit with the captain only clipped on one foot and then coast while the worthless captain fiddles with his clipping. What's really irritating on the tandem is having a single bike right in front of us, coasting slowly across the intersection while fiddling with that second foot, while we're both clipped in and accelerating.

I noticed in your description of how you get going on a single that you apparently have a toe on the ground while you're sitting on the saddle. I can't get anywhere near putting a toe on the ground while sitting on the saddle on any of my bikes. That won't work on a tandem anyway, because you're supporting way too much weight. You have to be off the saddle and have your foot flat on the ground. If we're going to be stopped for very long at all, I unclip both feet and put them both on the ground. It's a bit scary teetering with just one foot on the ground because one gust of wind could blow us over toward the side with no foot on the ground. If I've unclipped both feet and see that we're about to go, I say "Pedal!" then Stoker provides my dominant side pedal at 10:00 and I tilt the bike toward my other foot and clip in.

There is a trick to getting going, which trick is being in just the right size gear so that the dominant leg pedal goes down slowly enough that the captain can get their butt up and onto the saddle before the pedal is all the way down and they can't easily reach the saddle anymore. Disaster, i.e. we stop. Therefore it's the captain's responsibility to choose that correct gear before coming to a stop. Too large a gear is OK for the captain, but it'll PO the stoker because the stoker is charged with moving the bike forward while the captain clips in. Too small a gear to get started is mostly a problem on steep hills, when the bike is stopped while still in the climbing gear. It will almost certainly be too small to get started, therefore the captain should shift up a gear or two before stopping on a steep hill, then be ready to shift back down as soon as clipping is finished. Alternatively, the captain can apply a little bit of brake while levering up into the saddle, to give time for their butt to get up there. This is tricky though, thus usually choosing the larger gear is the better option.

If we are stopped on a downhill, we do everything differently. I say, "We won't pedal." Then I'll push down on the pedal, let it stop at BDC, move onto the saddle, and then clip in the other foot at TDC while we coast. Which is exactly what I just complained about single riders doing at intersections. On a downhill, that first pedal comes down too fast for me to lever into the saddle unless I've shifted up a couple gears. I'm too lazy to do that, so we use this method which also prevents us from accelerating too quickly into some possible disaster.

To recap, start by experimenting on your single bike. Before coming to a stop, make sure you're a couple cogs smaller than you would usually be in to ride from a standing stop. That'll imitate the weight of the stoker. Stand, both feet on the ground. Use your toe to position your dominant pedal at 10:00. Hold the brakes and clip in that dominant foot. The other foot is still flat on the ground and you're standing over the top tube. Now just push down on that pedal while using your leg to lift your butt up into the saddle. I don't push off at all with the foot that's on the ground. Putting my full weight on the other pedal brings the bike instantly upright. You'll be in the saddle before your dominant leg reaches BDC. The other pedal is now coming around so get your foot on it and try to clip in while continuing to pedal. Don't let the pedals stop! This is a little harder than having your stoker move them around for you, but it's good practice. I can do it easily on my singles, but I've had a lot of practice on the tandem.

As you can see, captaining a tandem is a whole 'nother thing. Not too much in common with riding a single. All this of course not to mention issues with handling, turning, braking. If a single is a sports car, this thing is a big rig.

twocicle

It really can be uncomfortable snagging one's rear on a bicycle horn. Believe it!

Machka 

Can you post some photos of what you're doing?

I'm still puzzle by the comment "I'll try putting the pedal up higher, but that brings it back even further, and the problem I'm having is not having enough leverage on the pedal to get off the ground." ... where is your pedal?

Carbonfiberboy 

Her gear isn't big enough.

Machka 

This is me, about to start my bicycle. Yes, it is a single, but I think mastering this technique on a single first is a good idea.

Note that my crank arm is in about a 10:00 position ... and my foot is in front of my body.

To start, I simply push down on the pedal and the bicycle starts rolling. I lift my right foot off the ground as the bicycle starts rolling. My left leg straightens quite naturally as the pedal drops to the 6:00 position, and when it gets there, I ease myself back onto the saddle. Meanwhile, my right leg has been hanging, but when the left pedal drops to the 6:00 position, the right pedal is in the 12:00 position which is the perfect position for me to get the side of the pedal I like. And I'm off!




Actually, in thinking about it, it's similar to climbing stairs. You step up with your left foot so that it is in a start position similar to what you'd be in straddling the top tube of a bicycle. Then you push down to raise your body up, and straighten your leg ... and repeat.

Machka 

Here's Rowan starting off ...


Standing over the bicycle ...



Clipping in ...



Raising the pedal to the 10:00 position ...



Pushing down to get the bicycle rolling, and starting to lift the right foot off the ground ...



Straightening the leg and moving back onto the saddle ...



Catching the right pedal and settling in ...