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Why don't manufacturers want to sell framesets? only?

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Why don't manufacturers want to sell framesets? only?

Old 07-26-19, 02:46 AM
  #26  
Fox Farm
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You can easily buy a frame and fork from Ritchey
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Old 07-26-19, 10:42 AM
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Not in the business, but my guess would be manufacturers get a discount on components and have found that is better to sell a complete bike than a frame. Customers can ride the bike and it looks better on a showroom floor than just a frame. Also requires very little labor from the retailer to put together and the manufacturer takes most of the risk.
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Old 07-27-19, 02:11 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by mvnsnd View Post
Not in the business, but my guess would be manufacturers get a discount on components and have found that is better to sell a complete bike than a frame. Customers can ride the bike and it looks better on a showroom floor than just a frame. Also requires very little labor from the retailer to put together and the manufacturer takes most of the risk.
Think about how many people here talk about test riding bikes before buying. The average person just wants a bike they can ride. They are not too picky about components.
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Old 07-27-19, 04:04 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
Think about how many people here talk about test riding bikes before buying. The average person just wants a bike they can ride. They are not too picky about components.
I guess I am not what you would call Average Person, then. I am very picky about components.
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Old 07-27-19, 05:41 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
Think about how many people here talk about test riding bikes before buying. The average person just wants a bike they can ride. They are not too picky about components.
Framesets would be be perfect for the manufacturers to implement online ordering and ship to customer's door. At the very least, ship to nearest authorized LBS.
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Old 07-27-19, 08:27 AM
  #31  
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I usually find that complete bikes are cheaper
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Old 07-27-19, 09:25 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by ussprinceton View Post
I usually find that complete bikes are cheaper
depends on what you want.. See the other Trek 2020 Domane thread. eg. Lowest priced Di2 bike is $6K (and that's with Trek's 2nd tier SL frame). The frameset, if available should sell for about $2K. I should be able to finish building a Di2 bike with this frame for a lot less than $4K difference if I wanted to.
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Old 07-27-19, 12:18 PM
  #33  
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I saw receipts from a major bike manufacturer who gets their frames made in taiwan (like most other companies). Won't name names.
It was something like $600 for a top end model they sell for $4000+

I honestly think Cervelo is just selling those components at prices they are able to buy from Shimano, Fizik, DT Swiss, etc and not making a dime on them. Full bikes are just there as an option cause some people would never buy a frame to build up a full bike.
$3700 makes sense to me considering above.
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Old 07-27-19, 12:19 PM
  #34  
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Also another note on Cervelo, it used to be opposite where you could buy a frame and build a whole exotic level bike cheaper than their top end one. That might still be the case with R5, S5 etc.
This way makes way more sense to me from consumer's point of view.
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Old 07-29-19, 08:03 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
I just scratch my head as to why these pricing structures make sense to the bike manufacturers.
They make more money this way.

Is there really a way that (for this example), Cervelo is really making more money (on absolute basis vs. percentage) on the complete than they are on the frameset?
The product of net profit and number of complete bikes customers are willing to buy at typical discounts from $3700 exceeds that at other price points.

Similarly, the product of net profit and number of frames customers are willing to buy at typical discounts from $3000 exceeds that at other price points.

The two markets are different, Lots of people want a complete bike they can ride out of the show room.

A few people desire exactly what they want and are willing to pay a significant premium.

If you don't like that you can buy a stock bike and ride it as is or go through the trouble of disassembling it, selling the components, and rebuilding it.

Aside from the component and wheelset/tire add-ons.. you have the shipping of the components to wherever the complete is assembled, plus the labor to assemble, and then the additional bulk for shipping of the complete thru the distribution network and on to the dealers, etc.
Aside from those costs, the dealer must pay interest on their inventory which is likely to be around longer. If the product is left over after this model year, they must sell it at a 40% discount that may be a loss which will be a more significant fraction of their bottom line for niche products with few units sold. As of July 29th 2019, Excel Sports Boulder sells complete 2018 Di2 Ultegra R8050 rim brake R3s for $2302 less than 2019 and $2860 substituting R8070 discs.

While Cost Of Goods Sold, marketing budget, sales overhead, and other expenses set a lower bound on price, smart companies charge what the market will bear.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 07-29-19 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 07-29-19, 08:35 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by gurk700 View Post
I saw receipts from a major bike manufacturer who gets their frames made in taiwan (like most other companies). Won't name names.
It was something like $600 for a top end model they sell for $4000+.
Materials aren't the only cost of doing business.

Transportation and warehousing, legal and government compliance, marketing, R&D, computers/IT, rent, payroll, keeping the lights on and the toilets flushing in the office, coffee service for the break room....

All these need to be layered on top of the alleged $600 frame cost.


-Tim-
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Old 07-29-19, 10:44 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
I just scratch my head as to why these pricing structures make sense to the bike manufacturers. Is there really a way that (for this example), Cervelo is really making more money (on absolute basis vs. percentage) on the complete than they are on the frameset? Aside from the component and wheelset/tire add-ons.. you have the shipping of the components to wherever the complete is assembled, plus the labor to assemble, and then the additional bulk for shipping of the complete thru the distribution network and on to the dealers, etc.

Easy: framesets are usually grossly overpriced.
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Old 07-29-19, 10:50 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Materials aren't the only cost of doing business.

Transportation and warehousing, legal and government compliance, marketing, R&D, computers/IT, rent, payroll, keeping the lights on and the toilets flushing in the office, coffee service for the break room....

All these need to be layered on top of the alleged $600 frame cost.


-Tim-
Hey now, facts have no place on BF!
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Old 07-29-19, 11:13 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post

What is the bulk cost of an Ultegra build kit to a major manufacturer?

My guess is that $700 is about right.

So, in this case, 100% of profit on frame, and building complete bike at near cost.
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Old 07-29-19, 12:21 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by kansukee View Post
Easy: framesets are usually grossly overpriced.
Or commodity mechanical Ultegra groupsets, alloy wheels and house brand stems are dirt cheap.

Build the it with Di2, carbon wheels and hydraulic disks and the price nearly doubles.


-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 07-29-19 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 07-29-19, 12:28 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
What is the bulk cost of an Ultegra build kit to a major manufacturer?

My guess is that $700 is about right.

So, in this case, 100% of profit on frame, and building complete bike at near cost.
Ultegra mechanical with rim brakes is $628 retail at Merlin right now. I doubt Cervelo or any other manufacturer is paying $700.


-Tim-
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Old 07-29-19, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Sorry, my post was specific to DIY, not having an LBS build it.

R&A is in Brooklyn, NY and I might be on Long Island in the fall. I'm seriously thinking about stopping by their shop with cash in hand. The R3 frameset is under $2300.

https://www.racycles.com/bikes/road/...frameset-13786

Stylish high-vis.


-Tim-
They have the R5 in Ultegra for $3k, I'd get that instead of you can live without the high vis frame color. Sell the group and use your own.
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Old 07-29-19, 01:48 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Ultegra mechanical with rim brakes is $628 retail at Merlin right now. I doubt Cervelo or any other manufacturer is paying $700.


-Tim-
Your build kit includes more than the groupset

Groupset:
Derailleur
Shifters/Brifters
Brake calipers
Cranks
Bottom bracket
Cables and housing?

Additional build kit:
Wheels
Tires
Tubes
Bars
Stem
Tape
Seatpost
Seat
Headset
Pedals?
Assembly
As mentioned above, additional shipping?

Keeping it all below $700 would be a tight squeeze.
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Old 07-29-19, 02:31 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
They have the R5 in Ultegra for $3k, I'd get that instead of you can live without the high vis frame color. Sell the group and use your own.
The R5 and R3 have different geometry.

The R3 is a little more relaxed with higher stack and less reach, more suitable for aging mortals such as myself.


-Tim-
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Old 07-31-19, 05:55 PM
  #45  
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I'd rather have a market where you could piece together your bike components. I know that does not make good sense for a company or an LBS or their agreements and volumes but I don't care, I am the end user. I am picky about my gears, my geometry, my crank length, handlebar shape and size, tires, bar tape. None even close to any bike on the market which forces me to spend more or compromise. I'd love tons of frame choices at good prices but they just aren't there. Frames and maybe forks are the single part that is missing from that Utopia.
Unrelated but even though the frame and fork are one piece of the puzzle, that name on the frame IS the bike regardless if every other single part on it is made by someone else. How many people would be willing to have a bike without the name on the bottom tube not purely visible for all to see. Not many.
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Old 07-31-19, 06:21 PM
  #46  
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My Madone SLR, Bianchi Oltre XR4, De Rosa SK Pininfarina, and Giant TCR SL were all built from the frame up. And all were built with better pricing than buying off the shelf complete bike.
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Old 07-31-19, 07:53 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Noctilux.95 View Post
My Madone SLR, Bianchi Oltre XR4, De Rosa SK Pininfarina, and Giant TCR SL were all built from the frame up. And all were built with better pricing than buying off the shelf complete bike.
Same thing I always do since I only ride Campagnolo and I'm pretty particular about my bikes. You always come out ahead as long as you shop judiciously.
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Old 08-01-19, 04:39 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by u235 View Post
How many people would be willing to have a bike without the name on the bottom tube not purely visible for all to see. Not many.
I would. Just give me some kind of ID mark in a hidden place. I actually have 2 bikes currently with all decals removed. It let's the paint jobs shine.

Last edited by seypat; 08-01-19 at 04:42 AM.
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