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Tubulars - A Different Slant

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Tubulars - A Different Slant

Old 10-21-19, 03:06 PM
  #26  
Wildwood
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I tried tubulars with an open mind (everybody kept telling me they were the bee's knees) and it was a mistake.

People are talking about cost in this thread because that's important to @DaveLeeNC.

Agreed, not everyone cares for tubulars (and that's a BIG OK) and non-racer folks, in reality, probably don't ride faster with tubulars. Any efficiency gains by riding light wheels is likely to be negligible unless measured over mts/big hills and longer distance rides. [truth is: engine+gearing (and not crashing) is almost all of it]

Better to have a mediocre frame and light wheels than a light frame with mediocre wheels. But guys in the 41 are soooo new frame oriented.
'my new frame only weighs 816gms, ..... it feels faster and 5% stiffer than my old one which weighed 920gms' = hahahahahahahahaha!
But what do I know?

Last edited by Wildwood; 10-21-19 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 10-21-19, 03:25 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Why such good deals on tubular wheelsets?
Because nobody wants them.
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Old 10-21-19, 03:38 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
Because nobody wants them.
I do, from the guys and girls who get free stuff every year.

Ultimately, the gullible early adopters/trend followers with lots of disposable income pay the bills. Evidence: 12-speed, tubeless, disk brake snob-brand road bikes for the weekend-warrior lawyers and dentists.
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Old 10-21-19, 04:22 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
I do, from the guys and girls who get free stuff every year.

Ultimately, the gullible early adopters/trend followers with lots of disposable income pay the bills. Evidence: 12-speed, tubeless, disk brake snob-brand road bikes for the weekend-warrior lawyers and dentists.
In your mind, what constitutes a "snob-brand" bike ?
DB, Tubeless, 12-speed 1x, for MTB or CX has to be nice, especially if electric
Most cyclist have a disposable income, just the amount that varies
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Old 10-21-19, 05:14 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
In your mind, what constitutes a "snob-brand" bike ?
DB, Tubeless, 12-speed 1x, for MTB or CX has to be nice, especially if electric
Most cyclist have a disposable income, just the amount that varies
A snob-brand bike is one that you pay 25% more over an identically specced bike from the somewhat lesser-known brands such as Fuji, Kestrel, Garneau, Orbea, Opus, etc.

Most of the extra margin goes for big advertising budgets and pharmaceuticals for sponsored athletes.

As far as disc brakes, tubeless, 1 x whatever speeds, we were talking about road bikes here. Sure, these are worthwhile features on mountain and cross bikes, but are inappropriate impediments on real road bikes. A lot of recent road riders come from MTB backgrounds, and the bike industry is there to sell these inexperienced converts what they are comfortable with, and what they think they need. However misguided these perceived needs...
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Old 10-21-19, 10:59 PM
  #31  
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Re aero,

my test is a riding buddy who outweighs me substantially, and always would coast past me on the descents.

When I got the Easton 60mm wheels, it reversed. Later he got a new bike w/ deeper wheels and it became more even.

Just recently one of those wheels fell apart and last weekend he was on the old bike (Spec Roubaix) w/ the alloy wheels, and I once again coasted past him on the descents.
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Old 10-21-19, 11:32 PM
  #32  
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I rode tubulars for decades exclusively, to train, to commute, to race. Went to clinchers in the late '90s. I am going back. The driving reason? I rolled an old clincher off the rear rim when it blew. At 25 mph. I never, ever want to see that happen going 40+, ever. I broke a collarbone, hit my head, broke rib(s?) and suffered an acre of road rash. (I kept my mouth shut re: the rib(s) to save 4 chest X-rays with of radiation and several hundred dollars.)

Now, I've blown tubulars, both new and old, front and rear going 40+ downhill. Not a big deal. Stop and change the tire and ride on. (Yes,this does assume a good glue job. But doing a good road-worthy glue job in areas without extreme heat is not difficult. I used to use Tubasti. Never removed the old glue. Older rims were totally dependable and road changed worked well with older tires; no pre-gluing needed. I just made it a point to be gentle on curves. By the time I got home, they were pretty well stuck but I would pull the spare and put on an either new tire or repaired tire I trusted and put the spare under the seat to use again.

If I lived in a really hot place, I research the best glues to be using. The pros race those conditions so the answers are out there. I raced and lived in New England and lived in the Bay Area and Tubasti worked just fine in both places year 'round. (I raced Clement on my race wheels, Tubasti on my training/spare/club race wheels. Never removed the Clement either. The glue I trusted the least was the first on a new rim.)

So, when it is time to go new tires and wheels, it's going to be tubulars so I can descend in confidence. (I love the Vittoria G+. Those in tubular on light, strong rims? I'll be in a heaven I haven't seen in many years.)

Ben
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Old 10-22-19, 12:16 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post

As far as disc brakes, tubeless, 1 x whatever speeds, we were talking about road bikes here. Sure, these are worthwhile features on mountain and cross bikes, but are inappropriate impediments on real road bikes.
How do these things impede a real road bike (with the exception of 1x, which I never see on any road bikes)? What is a real road bike anyway?
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Old 10-22-19, 07:22 AM
  #34  
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After buying my Synapse Ultegra Di2 I knew the Askium rims & clinchers were the first thing I would upgrade. Left me with the choice of staying with tubulars after 20+ years or clinchers. Campy Bora tubular carbon rims it was. I picked up a pair of Veloflex Vlanderen 28 tires and love the setup. Orange seal has given me many trouble free miles. Donít care about rolling resistance, I just love the way they ride. As for statements about tubulars being so hard to change on the road they must come from those who donít ride tubulars. All I can say is people donít know what they are missing.
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Old 10-22-19, 12:35 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by wildwood View Post
tubulars with a small amount of stan's or orangeseal are extremely flat proof.
Tubular wheels are lighter.
Tubular tires from uk/eu suppliers ~ $65 if you wait for deals (veloflex arenberg/roubaix/vlanderen).
Tubular tape is easy, if you don't wish to glue.

If you are serious about lightweight wheels, the problem with tubulars is in your head.

High-end clinchers with latex tubes are super nice as well - and about the same price.

Edit: Vittoria g+ tubulars for $49, veloflex from $65.
https://www.merlincycles.com/road-bi...e_type=tubular

i think it's funny, guys riding $5000+ bikes, disc brakes, carbon wheels complaining a small price difference for tubulars as a reason not to convert.
++++ exactly
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Old 10-22-19, 01:16 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I rode tubulars for decades exclusively, to train, to commute, to race. Went to clinchers in the late '90s. I am going back. The driving reason? I rolled an old clincher off the rear rim when it blew.
Ben
Amen on the safety benefits of tubulars. The last tubular blowout I experienced was inside a tunnel doing 40mph. I hit something large in the dark and the rear tire was flat in like one wheel revolution. As soon as I exited the tunnel I was faced with hard braking and a 90 degree reverse-camber corner. A bit exciting, but I was in control the whole time.

In contrast, my last clincher blowout occurred at little more than a walking pace. It took 20 years of mountain bike handling skills to keep my bod off of the pavement. If this blowout would have have happened at speed, or on a corner.....

As I posted earlier, the reason why elite-level riding (in all disciplines, including mountain biking) is done on tubulars is due to lower rotating mass. But safety is a close second.
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Old 10-22-19, 01:20 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Having LBS do the glueing will save you a lot of headache. But flats can be very expensive. That Light Bicycle thread makes Chinese carbon hoops sound pretty attractive. Food for thought.
I would glue my own. You have a lot (skin) riding on the quality of the install. Many of the young mechanics donít have much experience gluing tires. The more you do, the better you will get at it.
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Old 10-22-19, 01:47 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
As I posted earlier, the reason why elite-level riding (in all disciplines, including mountain biking) is done on tubulars is due to lower rotating mass. But safety is a close second.
I'm not sure why you keep spouting this garbage. As an elite level rider, I can tell you the main reason riders use tubulars is because they can be ridden while flat while waiting for the team/wheel car. You won't find many pro mtb'ers running tubular tires anymore.
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Old 10-22-19, 01:50 PM
  #39  
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Right now the fastest tire is a Corsa Speed TLR. Put that onto a "modern width" tubeless 60mm wheelset and call it a day.

Don't bother as the tubular versions right now are a touch slower. I run tubs on my trispoke and disc wheel because it's marginally faster at the speed I TT at versus the CRR gain of modern size clinchers....for the money. But the drawback is a 19mm front 23mm rear race only setup. Not a daily rider friendly kinda thing.
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Old 10-22-19, 02:08 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I would glue my own. You have a lot (skin) riding on the quality of the install. Many of the young mechanics donít have much experience gluing tires. The more you do, the better you will get at it.


This draws on the canard that road tubulars coming off is even a thing- it just isn't (CX is a different story).

Pro race mechanics use minimal glue and you may have heard of glue softening on 140˚ roads in Dubai but even so thousands of tires have stayed on over hundreds of thousands of racer-miles.

Having a shop glue the tires is probably more likely to give you sprained thumbs trying to eventually get the tire off.

If you have any direct experience otherwise, post it here:

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...d-tubular.html
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Old 10-22-19, 02:14 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
I'm not sure why you keep spouting this garbage. As an elite level rider, I can tell you the main reason riders use tubulars is because they can be ridden while flat while waiting for the team/wheel car. You won't find many pro mtb'ers running tubular tires anymore.
4 years pro XC, and I never used a tubular.
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Old 10-22-19, 02:52 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I rode tubulars for decades exclusively, to train, to commute, to race. Went to clinchers in the late '90s. I am going back. The driving reason? I rolled an old clincher off the rear rim when it blew. At 25 mph.

Ben
Just curious, were you using a tubeless-ready rim? One with strong bead shelves that make it hard to remove the tire? Itís a feature thatís becoming quite popular on modern road rims and I donít know how well-developed or common it was until very recently.

I sliced my front (clincher) tire going over 30mph downhill and was able to save it - though it did feel sketchy, and I donít know what would have happened if I had to turn or brake suddenly.
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Old 10-22-19, 03:03 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
This draws on the canard that road tubulars coming off is even a thing- it just isn't (CX is a different story).

Pro race mechanics use minimal glue and you may have heard of glue softening on 140˚ roads in Dubai but even so thousands of tires have stayed on over hundreds of thousands of racer-miles.

Having a shop glue the tires is probably more likely to give you sprained thumbs trying to eventually get the tire off.

If you have any direct experience otherwise, post it here:

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...d-tubular.html
I have seen and had it happen more than once. It is not rocket science, but it can be screwed up.
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Old 10-22-19, 03:47 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
Just curious, were you using a tubeless-ready rim? One with strong bead shelves that make it hard to remove the tire? Itís a feature thatís becoming quite popular on modern road rims and I donít know how well-developed or common it was until very recently.

I sliced my front (clincher) tire going over 30mph downhill and was able to save it - though it did feel sketchy, and I donít know what would have happened if I had to turn or brake suddenly.
No, it was either a Mavic Open Pro/Open Sport or Velocity Aero and an old Forte tire. I've had a new Challenge clincher blow off the rim and destroy a tube also (but that stayed on the rim - barely, no crash; I was going slow).

Yes, in theory, those new rims should stop what I saw from happening. But as one who has ridden long enough to see a few of those rare events that "theory" rules out, I am getting less willing to take chances. And I know glue does work to keep fabric and rubber on aluminum rims, even if the tire is blown ot shreds. Also that aluminum rims are not much better than rubber on ice for traction. And jamming a tire in a seatstay or fork does not end well.

Ben
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Old 10-22-19, 04:23 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I have seen and had it happen more than once. It is not rocket science, but it can be screwed up.

Can you describe the details?
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Old 10-22-19, 06:51 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
Can you describe the details?
No. I donít want to argue with you about it.
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Old 10-22-19, 07:23 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
No. I donít want to argue with you about it.

Not an argument. I've noticed over the years that many folks think of tubulars as unsafe because they could roll off,

but I have hardly heard of a single first-hand, or even very reliable second-hand account of it happening. Maybe a report of a rolled tire at a crit race.

So just interested in adding data points.
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Old 10-22-19, 08:30 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
Not an argument. I've noticed over the years that many folks think of tubulars as unsafe because they could roll off,

but I have hardly heard of a single first-hand, or even very reliable second-hand account of it happening. Maybe a report of a rolled tire at a crit race.

So just interested in adding data points.
I have seen tires at criterium and track events. Mine was a front wheel in a 35 mile downhill into a corner. The problem I have found with someone else gluing youíre tires is many times they donít know you or how you are going to use the wheel. A 130 lb roadie riding his wheels on a fixie is much different than a 210 lb sprinter on a 250 meter indoor track in terms of demand on the tire and its glue job. I remember seeing a rider doing sprint training have both his tires come off as he accelerated through the corner.
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Old 10-22-19, 09:11 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I have seen tires at criterium and track events. Mine was a front wheel in a 35 mile downhill into a corner. The problem I have found with someone else gluing youíre tires is many times they donít know you or how you are going to use the wheel. A 130 lb roadie riding his wheels on a fixie is much different than a 210 lb sprinter on a 250 meter indoor track in terms of demand on the tire and its glue job. I remember seeing a rider doing sprint training have both his tires come off as he accelerated through the corner.


Thanks.
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Old 10-23-19, 10:42 AM
  #50  
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Only pair of tubs I have came with the CX bike bought 2nd hand, and those grifos are great for racing
I could see having a road set in the future, with the newer road tubs being tubless-ish now days
Corsa tubs would be very nice though too
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