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How Much Damage Does Canyon Do To LBS's?

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How Much Damage Does Canyon Do To LBS's?

Old 04-10-20, 08:40 AM
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Sy Reene
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Related question somewhat.. but a visit to Trek, Giant or Spesh reveals that you can pretty much buy any of their in-stock bikes online. Trek even evidently offers ship directly to home; Giant and Spesh are still requiring you to specify the LBS you want to pick up from. So, what's the difference between these folks and Canyon, aside from there being an LBS likely nearby for service, whereas Canyon contracts with Velofix for the same?

Also curious.. does checking out with the big3 via online shopping cart, even if product is picked up at your designated LBS, cut out any of the LBS profit from having purchased the same bike in the store (assuming it would still need to ship from a distributor to get to the store in the color/size/model you want)? ie. does the LBS lose 'credit' for having closed the sale? Do the shop floor employees typically get a spiff from a sale?
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Old 04-10-20, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Related question somewhat.. but a visit to Trek, Giant or Spesh reveals that you can pretty much buy any of their in-stock bikes online. Trek even evidently offers ship directly to home; Giant and Spesh are still requiring you to specify the LBS you want to pick up from. So, what's the difference between these folks and Canyon, aside from there being an LBS likely nearby for service, whereas Canyon contracts with Velofix for the same?

Also curious.. does checking out with the big3 via online shopping cart, even if product is picked up at your designated LBS, cut out any of the LBS profit from having purchased the same bike in the store (assuming it would still need to ship from a distributor to get to the store in the color/size/model you want)? ie. does the LBS lose 'credit' for having closed the sale?
There's a clause in bike manufacturer owners manuals that states the warranty is void if the bike isn't put together by a certified dealer. If you ever ran into a warranty issue and they saw that you ordered the bike direct, they could ask you to produce a receipt showing that a shop built the bike up. If you can't come up with that receipt you'd be SOL on a warranty (potentially).

Every bike I've seen ordered to a shop, but not through the shop, was subject to an assembly fee ranging between $80-$200. Even warranty work was subject to labor fees, and not covered by the shop or manufacturer. Having worked for several shops, I can tell you that shop/manufacturer relationships have been soured over matters as little as $90. What happens is the manufacturer will balk on covering fees and tell the shop to pass it off on the customer (easy for them, as they don't deal with the customer). The customer will get blindsided by a huge bill for something they think should be covered, then the shop will be forced to cave into the customer and either eat the fees or lose future business. The manufacturer will throw the middle man under the bus and not give a hoot because they know they have a captive audience.
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Originally Posted by botto
incorrect.
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Old 04-10-20, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Related question somewhat.. but a visit to Trek, Giant or Spesh reveals that you can pretty much buy any of their in-stock bikes online. Trek even evidently offers ship directly to home; Giant and Spesh are still requiring you to specify the LBS you want to pick up from. So, what's the difference between these folks and Canyon, aside from there being an LBS likely nearby for service, whereas Canyon contracts with Velofix for the same?

Also curious.. does checking out with the big3 via online shopping cart, even if product is picked up at your designated LBS, cut out any of the LBS profit from having purchased the same bike in the store (assuming it would still need to ship from a distributor to get to the store in the color/size/model you want)? ie. does the LBS lose 'credit' for having closed the sale? Do the shop floor employees typically get a spiff from a sale?
Home delivery from TREK is related to the COVID-19 outbreak. The bike still passes through a local shop. From the TREK website:

"To help you spin through your unscheduled time at home, we’re now offering FREE HOME DELIVERY for online bike orders in select service areas.

When in the checkout process, select a retailer that ‘Offers Home Delivery’ from the list of Trek retailers in your area. This retailer will build your new bike and contact you to arrange FREE home delivery in a manner that you're comfortable with—at your curb, front porch, back porch, or garage."
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Old 04-10-20, 09:15 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
Even warranty work was subject to labor fees, and not covered by the shop or manufacturer. Having worked for several shops, I can tell you that shop/manufacturer relationships have been soured over matters as little as $90. What happens is the manufacturer will balk on covering fees and tell the shop to pass it off on the customer (easy for them, as they don't deal with the customer). The customer will get blindsided by a huge bill for something they think should be covered, then the shop will be forced to cave into the customer and either eat the fees or lose future business. The manufacturer will throw the middle man under the bus and not give a hoot because they know they have a captive audience.
I've seen this more times than I can remember. Luckily most repairs aren't covered by the manufacturers warranty.
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Old 04-10-20, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
There's a clause in bike manufacturer owners manuals that states the warranty is void if the bike isn't put together by a certified dealer. If you ever ran into a warranty issue and they saw that you ordered the bike direct, they could ask you to produce a receipt showing that a shop built the bike up. If you can't come up with that receipt you'd be SOL on a warranty (potentially).

Every bike I've seen ordered to a shop, but not through the shop, was subject to an assembly fee ranging between $80-$200.
I was referring ordering directly from Trek/Giant/Specialized.com; ie. not some ebay shop or whatnot. As Tomato clarified, it seems the direct to home is a Covid-related new service and the bike actually routes thru the LBS who then delivers the bike after they assembled.

Regarding the assembly fee.. the big 3 are pretty clear that assembly is free if ordered thru their US website and delivered to store for pickup (or your home if you go that route).

Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Home delivery from TREK is related to the COVID-19 outbreak. The bike still passes through a local shop. From the TREK website:

"To help you spin through your unscheduled time at home, we’re now offering FREE HOME DELIVERY for online bike orders in select service areas.

When in the checkout process, select a retailer that ‘Offers Home Delivery’ from the list of Trek retailers in your area. This retailer will build your new bike and contact you to arrange FREE home delivery in a manner that you're comfortable with—at your curb, front porch, back porch, or garage."
Thanks for the clarification. Giant has this also now too, as long as there's a participating retailer in your area.

Any thoughts though if doing any of this (either delivered to store or to home which is only available currently) though does cut out any of the LBS profit on a bike sale?
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Old 04-10-20, 10:45 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Any thoughts though if doing any of this (either delivered to store or to home which is only available currently) though does cut out any of the LBS profit on a bike sale?
I dont have the specific details and my info is old and so may not be relevant, but way back when, Specialized used to be very good at trying to help their dealers. It wasnt all one-way - they would pressure dealers to drop other brands, carry more inventory, etc., but along with the stick, they also had the carrot of supporting the dealer as much as they could, by trying to encourage shopping at the dealer (this is in terms of overall policy and approach - not at the individual transactional level).

So it wouldnt surprise me that they would throw a cut the dealer's way for fulfilling the order.
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Old 04-10-20, 11:03 AM
  #57  
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I bought my Emonda off the floor from a Trek dealer that I have a huge amount of respect for. I go to them for almost everything.

I bought my Giant Revolt off of Giant's website and had it delivered to an LBS. When I picked it up, the front derailleur cable had like 7 inches excess that they wound around the frame so it wouldn't stick out and the rear mech wasnt even close to being indexed. I didn't even bother having them fix it properly because I didn't trust them to do it right seeing how they delivered the bike to me.

My next bike was from an online only brand (Fezzari) and it was assembled perfectly and even had the mechanics info handwritten on a note in case I needed to get a hold of him.

I'm handy with tools and do pretty much all my maintenance and repairs myself but if I wasn't, I would be super leery about buying any bike from the internet, big brand or not, without seeing it on the showroom floor and giving it a test ride.
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Old 04-10-20, 11:13 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by BluFalconActual View Post
I'm handy with tools and do pretty much all my maintenance and repairs myself but if I wasn't, I would be super leery about buying any bike from the internet, big brand or not, without seeing it on the showroom floor and giving it a test ride.
That would be preferred, but take a single bike model such as a Domane.. there are 19 models on Trek's site. which come in with an average of 3 color options, and 6-7 sizes. Just for the Domane, the LBS would have to have over 300 bikes on their floor for a customer to be able to walk out with the one they want, after having verified its assembly. So my basic question, is it neither here nor there to a shop, whether you ordered the bike from a salesperson on the floor, or online in your home and delivered to the same shop?
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Old 04-10-20, 11:19 AM
  #59  
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With the Giant, I bought it directly from the website and had them deliver it to a local shop for assembly. I know most shops are reputable and don't want to throw them all under the bus but if I were to re-do it, I would have ordered it through an actual person at a shop so they had something invested with the sale. I think where I went wrong was buying it through the website and the shop was just kind of like the middle man. The sale was already made and they probably didn't care too much about me after that.
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Old 04-10-20, 11:28 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
I saw one in my neighborhood yesterday.(RVA area) It looked grand from my view.
A guy on my team has a red aeroad, it's my size and I definitely envy it. Lovely bike.
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Old 04-10-20, 11:44 AM
  #61  
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The shop owners I know have no problems with online orders. It allows them to stock the products they want to keep stocked, and not have all their capital tied up on high end bikes(with low profit margins).
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Old 04-10-20, 11:48 AM
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Don't Canyon bikes have one piece stem/handlebars? Eliminating easy adjustments. That right there would be a deal breaker for me.
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Old 04-10-20, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan333SP View Post
A guy on my team has a red aeroad, it's my size and I definitely envy it. Lovely bike.
The one in my neighborhood was a medium 2 tone blue. Darker on the back. Hopefully, you/your team is not riding anywhere close to Westminster Canterberry. I'd be cutting a wide swath around that place. I saw a young father in Sam's about an hour ago with a baby under a year old. No mask on him and nothing over the child carrier. Maybe it couldn't be helped, but at least zip up the carrier cover or put something over as a filter.

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Old 04-10-20, 02:55 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
So what will you do when robots start to replace more and more low-skilled jobs? Which will happen, inevitably. And inevitably the US government will not prepare for it properly, because they don't care enough about normal people (heck even here in Europe there are people urging governments to do more and we are much more social). There's gonna be a lot of people without employment unless new jobs are created. There's always going to be changes.

Anyway, more to your thread - who do you think profits more from the sale of an overpriced Trek - Trek or the LBS? My money is on Trek. So Canyon is a bigger threat to Trek than LBS. As someone said, Amazon and online retail in general is a much bigger threat to the LBS, because why even buy a tire from them if you can get it cheaper online? I have actually looked at other brands but do you know what? Canyon bikes are ridiculously more inexpensive - for the same price you get essentially the next model up, or even lower price is next model up. If Big companies would lower their prices that would have a much bigger impact. And Canyon directly sponsors one ladies team and has what, two pro teams using their bike? If big name companies need to sell at such high prices, it's because they have to many execs raking in cash. Or if they do actually spend so much on marketing and sponsorships, I would severely question that strategy, especially in this day and age where I can go online read reviews, compare bikes in detail and see for myself that I can either spend the same for next model up, or save 1-2k and get same weight bike, same components and see from reviews and hear from others that the quality is there. Big name, big price does not equal higher quality.
Yes. Absolutely. I have no idea where the split of profits is between LBS and mfr. on a $10K bike, as I say. No idea whatsoever. But if you are correct about all this, then this model that Canyon is employing is a real potential threat to those big mfrs. As you say, why would someone pay $6K for a perhaps quite similar bike they can get for $4K? Again, I cannot comment on all this current enthusiasm for claimed Canyon quality, as I do not own one. Not sure if that is valid and accurate or not. I personally tend to trust companies that have longer track records. But that's just me and I am not suggesting anyone needs to share that view. Perhaps, the enthusiasm is mostly about pricing. Whatever. but this is the basic reason for the post.
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Old 04-10-20, 02:59 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Projection is heavy in this post.

Your comment about buying the wrong bike is also just massively ridiculous. It's akin to saying some noob is not buying a new PC ready made but wants to do it in parts and gets an Intel CPU but AMD motherboard - that's your own fault. Not to mention I highly doubt you honestly, truly care about some individual buying the 'wrong' bike who would have bought the 'right' bike if only the LBS could have advised that person. In fact, you just showed us a reason for LBS to exist - help out noobs who don't know anything about cycling and don't want to do their own research.
Hmm. Well, I have read this four times now (but I am sure you doubt my honesty) and I am still confused by it. You seem to have written a perfect circle. But thank you for replying, all the same.
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Old 04-10-20, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Related question somewhat.. but a visit to Trek, Giant or Spesh reveals that you can pretty much buy any of their in-stock bikes online. Trek even evidently offers ship directly to home; Giant and Spesh are still requiring you to specify the LBS you want to pick up from. So, what's the difference between these folks and Canyon, aside from there being an LBS likely nearby for service, whereas Canyon contracts with Velofix for the same?

Also curious.. does checking out with the big3 via online shopping cart, even if product is picked up at your designated LBS, cut out any of the LBS profit from having purchased the same bike in the store (assuming it would still need to ship from a distributor to get to the store in the color/size/model you want)? ie. does the LBS lose 'credit' for having closed the sale? Do the shop floor employees typically get a spiff from a sale?
No idea about any of this, but I would not be especially happy if I were one of those LBS's, competing directly/indirectly with "my" own manufacturer(s).
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Old 04-10-20, 03:04 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by znomit View Post
You don't think bike shops push ill fitting bikes on customers because thats what they have on the floor?
Do you think that is commonplace? Is it?
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Old 04-10-20, 03:06 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by guadzilla View Post
There you go. You just answered your own question about "seemingly completely over-the-top and endless fandom for Canyon" that you had in your first post.

Also, there is no reason to be "personally alarmed" either. Other people enjoying and riding their bikes doesnt pose any threat to you.
**********??
But thanks for the reassurance, that, I do appreciate.
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Old 04-10-20, 03:06 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist View Post
Yes. Absolutely. I have no idea where the split of profits is between LBS and mfr. on a $10K bike, as I say. No idea whatsoever. But if you are correct about all this, then this model that Canyon is employing is a real potential threat to those big mfrs. As you say, why would someone pay $6K for a perhaps quite similar bike they can get for $4K?.
It's interesting to speculate. As an example, some of you may be familiar with Excel and their Cervelos.
Otherwise identical except for rim vs disc, but Excel has discounted the rim version by $2500 from msrp, and I'll hazard a guess, they're still making some money on each sale. Does this imply that a sale of the disc version at the full msrp, is therefore netting Excel at least $2.5-$3k per unit?


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Old 04-10-20, 03:06 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist View Post
Businesses on this planet generally succeed for one or both of two reasons in my experience: 1) They have an attractive value proposition; and 2) The take care of their customers. Canyon obviously has "1" going for it. It's the "2" part I worry about. Not for them. For their customers. But what do I know...
I think customer service is part of the value proposition, and the Canyons, BDs, Ali China Specials of the world help put a number on it. I see the benefit in it, which is why I shop locally unless I want a project, but I also see exactly how costly it is and if money is tight it might not be the best option.
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Old 04-10-20, 03:09 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
Don't Canyon bikes have one piece stem/handlebars? Eliminating easy adjustments. That right there would be a deal breaker for me.
Nope, not all of them, only some of the models. Neither of the two brand new Canyon bikes @ my house have one piece stem/bars. (Endurace and Inflite) I would love the one piece aero bar/stem on my Endurace... but no, they are swappable/flipable stems. (If you know where to find 1 1/4” stems.)
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Old 04-10-20, 03:12 PM
  #72  
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I think the conglomerate brand relationship with LBS's will kill the LBS. No longer can shops bring in a variety for people to try. You go to one LBS for Specialized, another for TREK, another for Giant etc. Components and accessories are going down the same path.
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Old 04-10-20, 03:29 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist View Post
Hmm. Well, I have read this four times now (but I am sure you doubt my honesty) and I am still confused by it. You seem to have written a perfect circle. But thank you for replying, all the same.
I don't understand this reply.

As to your honesty, I did not mean to say your are dishonest, apologies if it came across that way. I just cannot imagine someone caring so much that a random stranger doesn't buy the wrong bike, because as I said, if you buy online without enough research, that's your own fault. Why would you feel so bad/sorry for a stranger messing up due to their own fault? That's what I don't get.
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Old 04-10-20, 03:44 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
One of those two LBSes is fantastic -- when I get the owner is involved -- but it's a single brand shop and doesn't carry everything I want. The other LBS gave me zero reason to ever shop there again.
I think there's two predominant classes of LBS; the first is the full-service, customer-first type deal. The other has huge inventory at slightly lower prices, with a profusion of entry level bikes. They cater to rank beginners who have never bought a road bike before and have no idea what to buy. They can see what they're buying, make sure it's roughly the right size, and know there's some measure of warranty support although these shops aren't generally going to bend over backwards. This buyer can't order online since they have no idea what to buy. Their second bike might get ordered online. Maybe third. Then they go to the first type of LBS when they're older and more flush, know exactly what they want, that they're in it for the long term, and are willing to pay. At least this is what I see in the SF Bay Area, where cycling is relatively popular (there are lots of local retailers) and lots of young people who have arrived the last 5 years. We also have full-service entry level stores; they provide great service, but only sell low-end yet vetted gear that won't discredit them. While their prices are retail, because the gear is low end it tends to be inexpensive in absolute terms. I think this only works where cycling is popular to begin with since you need volume. I think they appeal to a certain psychological profile ("luxury-phobic" might be a good term). Anyway, just my observational $.02 fwiw.
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Old 04-10-20, 03:56 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist View Post
<snip>I cannot comment on all this current enthusiasm for claimed Canyon quality, as I do not own one. I personally tend to trust companies that have longer track records. But that's just me and I am not suggesting anyone needs to share that view.
There are two new Canyon bikes in our possession now, and I promise they are very high quality bicycles that ride well, have great geometries, and look outstanding as well. We have lots of bikes in our garage; the Canyons are every bit as nice as the Trek, Cannondales, Specialized and Look carbon.

Bestowing trust in a company that has been around a long time can kill you. Just ask a few Boeing customers how that “long track record” is working for them. Or Sears. Or Radio Shack. Why didn’t Kodak get on the digital train right at the start? Where’s Schwinn these days (to keep this line of questioning bike related.) Longevity in the marketplace does not always equal quality, competence, or success.

Last edited by AdkMtnMonster; 04-10-20 at 04:10 PM.
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