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Am I at elite level? Break down my data/ power data

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Am I at elite level? Break down my data/ power data

Old 05-25-20, 11:10 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
FTFY.
Those precise numbers fit me almost to a T, and I would be about 4 full tiers below elite.
Same.
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Old 05-25-20, 11:13 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
The inflated tss has been addressed, but another thing that caught my eye is the NP v AP. Usually in a ride that long you’d expect to see those numbers closer together, unless it was a punchy race with lots of attacking or rolling hills. Or both (see Turlock Lake RR).
It appears to be four laps of Central Park in NYC. I had always imagined it as flat(ish) but I guess it's actually really bumpy-- though no "climb" gains over 60ft. Coasting all of the "downhills," I guess?

Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Yeah, some stuff if off because he hasn't set his FTP properly, but the kJ:Cal ratio isn't out of line with what Strava gives me.
Strava, given power data, uses the straight kJ x 1.1 ratio, no problem. Wahoo units do not use power data at all for calorie numbers, and Strava just accepts whatever the Wahoo gives it, no questions. Not unusual for my "calories" to end up kJ + 50%.

Originally Posted by sirjag View Post
Hello Dr.,
Can you explain this chart to me?

JAG
Take your power output (kJ) for a given time interval, and divide it by your weight in kilograms to get your W/kg. For instance, 270W for 20 minutes for a 90kg rider = 3.0W/kg. Elite riders will be over 5W/kg for their FTP. Often way over.

Originally Posted by illjustride View Post
Thanks, yeah I'll have to look into doing an FTP test soon. Thanks for the help none the less.
I would just start by taking that ride as an unofficial FTP and enter 275W in Strava/Wahoo, as that's roughly what you actually put out for an hour. That should drive the stress scores way down.
I'm not really sure what to do with the HR zones, except maybe use a different calculator to define them, such as this one. Your current setting seems to indicate a max HR of maybe 200 and an LTHR of 190.

That effort does not appear to be a tempo effort.
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Old 05-25-20, 11:25 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Strava, given power data, uses the straight kJ x 1.1 ratio, no problem. Wahoo units do not use power data at all for calorie numbers, and Strava just accepts whatever the Wahoo gives it, no questions. Not unusual for my "calories" to end up kJ + 50%.
I'm still not exactly sure where you're going with this. I'm using a Wahoo with a PM, the OP is using a Wahoo with a PM. Are you saying that you would expect Wahoo to report something like 1300-1400 cal/hour with the above efforts?
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Old 05-25-20, 11:32 AM
  #54  
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Yeah. It's not unusual to hit 800kcal/hr with a modest effort and the Wahoo algorithm. Though presumably if the HR zones in the Wahoo are set to astronomical numbers, that might explain the proximity of the kcal and kJ.

My ride this morning was exactly one hour @ 77% intensity, 711kJ and 900kcal. That's actually pretty close for the algorithm. Yesterday was 51 miles @ 63% intensity, 1,674kJ but a whopping 2,515kcal. The longer the effort, the bigger the disparity, IME.
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Old 05-25-20, 11:47 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Strava, given power data, uses the straight kJ x 1.1 ratio, no problem.
Definitely not a hard rule. My last four rides:

1608 kJ; 1609 Cal
535 kJ; 533 Cal
1370 kJ; 1367 Cal
1172 kJ; 1170 Cal

(2 bikes, 2 power meters, no heart rate, Garmin computer)
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Old 05-25-20, 12:01 PM
  #56  
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He seems to have a similar build to Ian Stannard. Here is a Strava Clip of his numbers from TOB a while ago.
https://roadcyclinguk.com/sportive/s...tain-ride.html
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Old 05-25-20, 12:02 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Yeah. It's not unusual to hit 800kcal/hr with a modest effort and the Wahoo algorithm. Though presumably if the HR zones in the Wahoo are set to astronomical numbers, that might explain the proximity of the kcal and kJ.

My ride this morning was exactly one hour @ 77% intensity, 711kJ and 900kcal. That's actually pretty close for the algorithm. Yesterday was 51 miles @ 63% intensity, 1,674kJ but a whopping 2,515kcal. The longer the effort, the bigger the disparity, IME.
Ah, okay. Now that you mention it, my HR zones seem to have a problem with staying put on my Wahoo. Checking now, there was nothing, so maybe it defaults to 1.1 without any zones defined. I've reset it and will see if that changes things moving forward.
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Old 05-25-20, 12:22 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Definitely not a hard rule. My last four rides:

1608 kJ; 1609 Cal
535 kJ; 533 Cal
1370 kJ; 1367 Cal
1172 kJ; 1170 Cal

(2 bikes, 2 power meters, no heart rate, Garmin computer)
Garmin does not algorithm, they use 1:1.
If a Wahoo file is given to Strava with Power + HR, Strava takes the HR algorithm number from Wahoo for calories.
If a Wahoo file is given to Strava with Power, Strava uses their own 1.1 x kJ to give calories. Wahoo head units without an HRM give a calorie count of zero.

I learned this riding with my wife, when I will be way down in Z1, where Wahoo defaults to a BMR-based calorie calculation. I would have rides with 600kJ and 188kcal.
Via that algorithm, I've seen as low as 8kcal.mi. So now when I ride with her, I leave the HRM at home.
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Old 05-25-20, 01:35 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Garmin does not algorithm, they use 1:1.
If a Wahoo file is given to Strava ...
Okay, got it - misread your post.
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Old 05-25-20, 01:53 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Yesterday was 51 miles @ 63% intensity, 1,674kJ but a whopping 2,515kcal. The longer the effort, the bigger the disparity, IME.
​​​​​​That's part of the get fat diet. I used to think HR was some unique insight into energy use.
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Old 05-25-20, 01:57 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by illjustride View Post
Sup everyone. I completed a century ride the other day. I've been going over my data and I wanted some data junkies to breakdown my numbers and tell me what they think. Tear it apart if you will, I'm looking for honest feedback if I should be pacing better, taking it easier on my climbs etc. A little bit about the route... It was mainly climbing and rolling hills. Looking forward to building a conversation around this. Let me know if you need more info.

thats a big anope!
😀
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Old 05-25-20, 06:11 PM
  #62  
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[Very insightful post above mine, complaining about typical boorish BF culture on display in this thread, was deleted by the author]

Welcome to Bike Forums. The kind of stuff you mention above bothered me for a long time when I first started posting here. You can complain all you want, but I doubt it will ever change. "It is what it is", in the parlance of the day. It's a mysterious force unto itself.

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Old 05-25-20, 08:08 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
FTFY.
Those precise numbers fit me almost to a T, and I would be about 4 full tiers below elite.
For a lighter guy like me, 3.5 to 4W/kg would barely be enough to top 10 a cat 5 race 😭. Im almost there though, and I have a very pointy power curve.
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Old 05-26-20, 03:41 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
For a lighter guy like me, 3.5 to 4W/kg would barely be enough to top 10 a cat 5 race 😭. Im almost there though, and I have a very pointy power curve.
Why is that? According to that chart, that is way beyond cat 5 level. Bigger guys just make up for it with raw power on flat courses? Or stick with and at the end out-sprint others? And how much is lighter in your eyes?

Sorry for the barrage, just curious.
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Old 05-26-20, 05:09 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Why is that? According to that chart, that is way beyond cat 5 level. Bigger guys just make up for it with raw power on flat courses? Or stick with and at the end out-sprint others? And how much is lighter in your eyes?

Sorry for the barrage, just curious.
Because the chart really doesn't mean anything. The original didn't have race categories attributed to it, that was just added on later as marketing gibberish.

It has nothing to do with actual racing. You could have someone with 20 min power in the "Cat 4" bracket that wins p/1/2 races simply because they know how to race and have an awesome sprint. Conversely, you can have cat 1s with 5s power in the "Cat 4" bracket because they aren't sprinters. Just doesn't matter, and no one is great at everything.

The only way to compare yourself to other bike racers is in a race. Charts are not races, power outputs are not races, training rides are not races. Even zwift is not comparable to a real race.
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Old 05-26-20, 05:36 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by illjustride View Post
Thanks, yeah I'll have to look into doing an FTP test soon. Thanks for the help none the less.
looks like your from the city 9 w has a lot of fast riding groups see if you can hang with one of the fastest groups out there for a couple hours if so your still not elite but very much on your way there. As on any given weekend. You will find a lot of cat 1 and 2 riders training
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Old 05-26-20, 07:24 AM
  #67  
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I did the 2018 AOMM for 103mi and 11300 feet climbing in only 20min longer than you took to do those 7000 feet. On less power too.

I'd say no. You and I are both average. Welcome to the club of being normal! At the time I was just a clubbie rider and trained up some longer rides to be able to "finish" the fondo.

I can climb in Zwift at least up the Alpe these days at close to a 4.0w/kg for the 50 or so minutes. Nothing stellar. That's pretty ho hum when you realize there's plenty of folks out there doing 5.0w/kg for that amount of time no problem.

The old Coggan w/kg table is useless. It's about results.
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Old 05-26-20, 08:35 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Because the chart really doesn't mean anything. The original didn't have race categories attributed to it, that was just added on later as marketing gibberish.

It has nothing to do with actual racing. You could have someone with 20 min power in the "Cat 4" bracket that wins p/1/2 races simply because they know how to race and have an awesome sprint. Conversely, you can have cat 1s with 5s power in the "Cat 4" bracket because they aren't sprinters. Just doesn't matter, and no one is great at everything.

The only way to compare yourself to other bike racers is in a race. Charts are not races, power outputs are not races, training rides are not races. Even zwift is not comparable to a real race.
Yeah, its like saying I can bench 350lbs, can I play in the NFL?. Power is certainly necessary and handy in bike racing, but it wont do anything on its own. I have 3.7W/kg FTP, and Id get rapidly shelled in any cat5 race ever.
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Old 05-26-20, 08:48 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post

The only way to compare yourself to other bike racers is in a race. Charts are not races, power outputs are not races, training rides are not races. Even zwift is not comparable to a real race.
+1

OP, want to find out if you are "Elite"? Go pin on a number. If you Cat up quickly, you might be on your way to becoming "elite", but don't be surprised if you get spit out OTB.
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Old 05-26-20, 08:54 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Because the chart really doesn't mean anything. The original didn't have race categories attributed to it, that was just added on later as marketing gibberish.

It has nothing to do with actual racing. You could have someone with 20 min power in the "Cat 4" bracket that wins p/1/2 races simply because they know how to race and have an awesome sprint. Conversely, you can have cat 1s with 5s power in the "Cat 4" bracket because they aren't sprinters. Just doesn't matter, and no one is great at everything.

The only way to compare yourself to other bike racers is in a race. Charts are not races, power outputs are not races, training rides are not races. Even zwift is not comparable to a real race.
Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
+1

OP, want to find out if you are "Elite"? Go pin on a number. If you Cat up quickly, you might be on your way to becoming "elite", but don't be surprised if you get spit out OTB.
Indeed.

Get bounced around in a crit a little bit, then decide if being an elite cyclist is for you.
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
In other news, to effect quick passes of other cyclists out this morning, I did dial it up to 400w to pass several times. It doesn't actually feel like much of anything for that duration. Not sure what that guy was on about.
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Old 05-26-20, 09:49 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Because the chart really doesn't mean anything. The original didn't have race categories attributed to it, that was just added on later as marketing gibberish.

It has nothing to do with actual racing. You could have someone with 20 min power in the "Cat 4" bracket that wins p/1/2 races simply because they know how to race and have an awesome sprint. Conversely, you can have cat 1s with 5s power in the "Cat 4" bracket because they aren't sprinters. Just doesn't matter, and no one is great at everything.

The only way to compare yourself to other bike racers is in a race. Charts are not races, power outputs are not races, training rides are not races. Even zwift is not comparable to a real race.
Exactly.

And while w/kg at FTP is important on long climbs. Power to surface ratio is more important on the flats, and 10 second (sprinting) and 1 minute power are more important in other aspects of racing.

So for me, I can time trial at a pretty decent level, ocassionally win sprints, and do ok on courses with short punchy hills. But I couldn't win a Cat 5 race with long sustained climbs.

There's more to bike racing than just FTP w/kg.
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Old 05-26-20, 09:56 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post

The old Coggan w/kg table is useless. It's about results.
It's not useless. It is often misused.

The purpose of the chart is identify strengths and weaknesses.
You can then race your strengths, and train your weaknesses.

So for example if your one minute power is exceptional, relative to your 10 second power, you may be better off taking a flyer in the final kilometer, than waiting for the sprint.

There was a guy on here Waterrockets, that did exactly that. In part by looking at his power data, he realized his greatest strength was power for the time it took to cover 1km, and he started winning races using that knowledge.

So use the chart to compare yourself to yourself, not to compare yourself to others.
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Old 05-26-20, 11:23 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
It's not useless. It is often misused.

The purpose of the chart is identify strengths and weaknesses.
You can then race your strengths, and train your weaknesses.

So for example if your one minute power is exceptional, relative to your 10 second power, you may be better off taking a flyer in the final kilometer, than waiting for the sprint.

There was a guy on here Waterrockets, that did exactly that. In part by looking at his power data, he realized his greatest strength was power for the time it took to cover 1km, and he started winning races using that knowledge.

So use the chart to compare yourself to yourself, not to compare yourself to others.
That's a great point and I think the origin of the move of training platforms to what you say, identifying strengths and weaknesses as they relate to target events.

So yes, it could be used that way!

By that chart then let's see what I come up with:

-5s sprint: locker room legend
-1min: above average, Boonen
-5min: locker room legend
-20min: Boonen

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Old 05-26-20, 12:18 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
It's not useless. It is often misused.

The purpose of the chart is identify strengths and weaknesses.
You can then race your strengths, and train your weaknesses.

So for example if your one minute power is exceptional, relative to your 10 second power, you may be better off taking a flyer in the final kilometer, than waiting for the sprint.

There was a guy on here Waterrockets, that did exactly that. In part by looking at his power data, he realized his greatest strength was power for the time it took to cover 1km, and he started winning races using that knowledge.

So use the chart to compare yourself to yourself, not to compare yourself to others.
To add on: I had good 1’ power but lousy 20’ power. The coach I was working with at the time said that 1’ power isn’t very useful if you get dropped 40 minutes into a 60 minute race. So we spent a lot of time in training trying to lift my FTP. And in races, I would work on being smart and saving matches until I could use them to help a teammate or myself. Later in the season I would then try to sharpen up that pointy part of the power curve, but only after raising the floor of the long flat part.
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Old 05-26-20, 03:29 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
+1

OP, want to find out if you are "Elite"? Go pin on a number. If you Cat up quickly, you might be on your way to becoming "elite", but don't be surprised if you get spit out OTB.
The latter happens to most people starting out in bike racing. It takes time to develop. If you do start racing, make sure you give at least a year before you decide anything.
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