Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Persistent ideas in cycling that make no sense

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Persistent ideas in cycling that make no sense

Old 04-07-21, 07:25 AM
  #76  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,613

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 997 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi
I'm just curious to see some examples of bikes with what you believe to be poor value/quality mid-tier carbon wheels. I've seen stuff like Treks with their in-house ~$1300 msrp Aeolus wheels, bikes with Reynolds AR41 or similar, etc, and I think that, as a package, they're awesome values. Off the top of my head, I can't recall seeing any bikes with clunker carbon wheels.
I'm not sure it's a good example, but an Ultegra Domane SL6 with the $500 MSRP alloy wheelset (bike = $4100) vs Domane SL7 with Di2 Ultegra and the Aeolus Carbon wheels has an MSRP of $6500. Allowing a $1k upcharge for Di2 and $800 for the wheelset, there's another $600 unaccounted for. I think a buyer of the lower level bike could probably do better doing their own upgrades. Unless it's buried somewhere, visiting the Aeolus product page, neither the rim depth or the wheel weights are published.
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 04-07-21, 08:27 AM
  #77  
Hiro11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,608

Bikes: 2022 Specialized Allez Sprint custom build, 2019 Giant Defy Advanced Pro 0, 2018 Seven Mudhoney Pro custom build, 2017 Raleigh Stuntman, various others

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 782 Post(s)
Liked 475 Times in 238 Posts
1. Weight weenieism. For example, 200g of frame weight doesn't matter, at all. Sacrificing durability to cut 200g off of a frame's weight is dumb. This is how you wind up with ultra expensive, tough to work on and essentially disposable frames like we have today.
2. Manufacturer-provided wind tunnel aero data. Setting aside the fundamental conflict of interest here, such data is essentially irrelevant in the real world with swirling winds and group rides.
3. Aero wheels and frames as the first aero upgrade. Working on your position is free and far more effective. Clothing and helmet next. Frames and wheels are some of the least dollar per watt saved upgrades and yet everyone buys that first.
4. I agree with the above comments on reflexive retro-grouchiness. Just because you don't like tubeless/disc brakes/electronic drivetrains/gravel bikes etc doesn't mean you're right and those who do like such things are wrong.
5. Believing the brand of a bike is the first thing to consider when buying bikes. So many questions here similar to "what do you think about Trek bikes?" etc. These are meaningless questions. Most brands don't make anything themselves. The bigger brands make a huge range of bikes. You need to look at the model itself, not the brand.
6. Buying marketing hype on tiny design differentiations between road frames. Most road frames for sale these days are very similar in terms of geometry, ride characteristics, frame features (dropped chainstays etc). I would focus more on engineering features like bottom bracket type, cable routing, seatpost type etc rather than the design.
7. Believing the frame material is the most important factor in determining the ride characteristic of the bike. People focus on this way too much. This is particularly true of Ti and steel bikes, materials certain advocates believe endow bikes with magical characteristics that are uniquely inherent to the frame material. Frame material matters more for toughness and failure mode than anything else.
Hiro11 is offline  
Likes For Hiro11:
Old 04-07-21, 08:30 AM
  #78  
ericcox
Trying to keep up
 
ericcox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 2,137

Bikes: Pinarello Prince, Orbea Onix, Ridley Fenix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times in 79 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi
Front the same manufacturer? I often see similar claims of horrible upgrade values within a given manufacturer, but whenever I've looked in to them, there have always been gross oversights and the upgrade has been solid for the money (assuming the upgrades are of value to a given buyer).
No - different brands. And the wheelset on the pricier bike was fine. It was actually a somewhat tough decision. But getting the cheaper bike a) let me pick the wheels I wanted (or, more accurately, my wife bought me as a present); and b) have a back up set / training wheels. Aesthetics also came into it - I just like the bike I bought.

Originally Posted by smashndash
What do you not like about the Fulcrum 5s? I'm not claiming that alloy wheels are just as fast as mid tier carbon wheels - that would be silly. It's more of a holistic evaluation.
I like the Fulcrums for the most part. They're on the heavy side for sure - heavier than the 55mm wheels I replaced them with (though it's close). They roll fine, and certainly handle rough roads / light gravel well. In tiers of bikes, though, I think it is safe to say they are normally OEM on bikes a fair bit less than what I paid. The old Ksyriums on my 2007 Orbea are both lighter and have bladed spokes - that bike was in a similar place in the lineup compared to my current bike (a Prince). Had I not made an offhand comment about carbon wheels showing up in my feed all the time that my wife took as a hint to buy me set, I'd probably still be on them. But... the bike looks and feels better with the CF wheels. While it is tough to do a real world test, on a number of local segments, it seems I pick up anywhere from 1/4 to 1 MPH at similar power outputs. On some really fast false flats, similar power appears to buy even more speed. Could all be mental as well.
ericcox is offline  
Old 04-07-21, 08:50 AM
  #79  
y2zipper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 71
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I'm not sure it's a good example, but an Ultegra Domane SL6 with the $500 MSRP alloy wheelset (bike = $4100) vs Domane SL7 with Di2 Ultegra and the Aeolus Carbon wheels has an MSRP of $6500. Allowing a $1k upcharge for Di2 and $800 for the wheelset, there's another $600 unaccounted for. I think a buyer of the lower level bike could probably do better doing their own upgrades. Unless it's buried somewhere, visiting the Aeolus product page, neither the rim depth or the wheel weights are published.
Trek publishes the data on all of their aeolus wheelsets. With their model ranges I felt like there was good return until you look at Di2.

I went through this dilemma when I bought an Emonda last year. They sell 2 models of the SL6, so I took the one with the 800 msrp wheelset that costs 500 more. I can still get a better wheelset than the one I have if I want, but I don't need to do that right now.
y2zipper is offline  
Old 04-07-21, 09:38 AM
  #80  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,613

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 997 Posts
Originally Posted by y2zipper
Trek publishes the data on all of their aeolus wheelsets. .
I found the tech specs link :-) Still couldn't find the wheel depth listed for the Aeolus or the Paradigm Comp (the alloy wheelset referenced). Basically a 1600g vs 1800g wheelset difference if only looking at weight. Kinda weird, even looked at the linked BikeRumor and BikeRadar reviews and nobody mentions the depth.
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 04-07-21, 09:44 AM
  #81  
okoweq
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Another persistent idea: skinny tires (<28mm) make you go faster than wider tires (>32mm). Wider tires are a blessing! More comfortable, can run at a lower pressure, more resistant to punctures, better traction in turns and actually roll faster. The All Road Bike Revolution by Jan Heine is a great read on this.
okoweq is offline  
Likes For okoweq:
Old 04-07-21, 10:11 AM
  #82  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,645 Times in 6,054 Posts
Originally Posted by dmanthree
Yeah, until you hit the brakes in a downpour.

;-)
You must be using a Garmin. Wahoo Bolt creates an electrical field that repels water. The heat gun the battery dries the road ahead of you. Also it brings dead relatives back to life.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 04-07-21, 10:27 AM
  #83  
dmanthree
Senior Member
 
dmanthree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Northeastern MA, USA
Posts: 1,678

Bikes: Garmin/Tacx Bike Smart

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked 289 Times in 191 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
You must be using a Garmin. Wahoo Bolt creates an electrical field that repels water. The heat gun the battery dries the road ahead of you. Also it brings dead relatives back to life.
Dammit! I'm using a Bolt! Where is that setting? On the head unit or on the iPhone smartphone app?

Of course, I may not be able to test it for a while. Kinda dry here in Naples.
dmanthree is offline  
Old 04-07-21, 04:29 PM
  #84  
y2zipper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 71
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I found the tech specs link :-) Still couldn't find the wheel depth listed for the Aeolus or the Paradigm Comp (the alloy wheelset referenced). Basically a 1600g vs 1800g wheelset difference if only looking at weight. Kinda weird, even looked at the linked BikeRumor and BikeRadar reviews and nobody mentions the depth.
I couldn't find for that particular wheel set either. I thought for sure it would be published like they publish the depths of the aeolus rims, but you're right I can't find that one.

With the Emoda sl6 they let you take the paradigms or for 500 bucks up you can get the aeolus elite 35s, which Trek made as a budget carbon wheel set for that bike in particular I think. I would definitely prefer to do my own wheel upgrade but I can't right now.
​​​​​

​​​​​
y2zipper is offline  
Old 04-07-21, 06:11 PM
  #85  
guachi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 520
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked 327 Times in 179 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I'm not sure it's a good example, but an Ultegra Domane SL6 with the $500 MSRP alloy wheelset (bike = $4100) vs Domane SL7 with Di2 Ultegra and the Aeolus Carbon wheels has an MSRP of $6500. Allowing a $1k upcharge for Di2 and $800 for the wheelset, there's another $600 unaccounted for. I think a buyer of the lower level bike could probably do better doing their own upgrades. Unless it's buried somewhere, visiting the Aeolus product page, neither the rim depth or the wheel weights are published.
The Aeolus Pro 3V wheels on the SL7 weigh 1575g, rim width of 25mm, and depth of 37mm. It's the same wheels that come on my Domane SLR7 and I had to hunt for that info. They are the wide rim width version of the Pro 37 wheels that have a 21mm internal width.

By comparison, the Paradigm Comp 25 alloy wheels on the SL6 weigh 1780g and have a depth of 23mm and the same 25mm internal width.

For further comparison, the Affinity alloy wheels on the SL5 weigh 2160g and have a rim width of 21mm.

I own a 2019 Domane SL5 and if I weren't getting a new SLR7 (arriving in June!) I'd probably upgrade the wheels and relegate the original Affinity wheels to duty as a second wheelset for gravel riding. Except the 2019 SL5 only has a max tire clearance of 32mm.
guachi is offline  
Old 04-07-21, 06:46 PM
  #86  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,505

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 353 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20791 Post(s)
Liked 9,436 Times in 4,663 Posts
Originally Posted by guachi
Except the 2019 SL5 only has a max tire clearance of 32mm.
2019 SL5 Disc? If so, it should clear 35s. I had a 2018 SL5 GRVL that came stock with 35mm Schwalbe G-Ones Allrounds and, despite the name, the frame was exactly the same as a standard SL.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 04-07-21, 07:38 PM
  #87  
RChung
Perceptual Dullard
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,395
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 900 Post(s)
Liked 1,122 Times in 482 Posts
Originally Posted by okoweq
Another persistent idea: skinny tires (<28mm) make you go faster than wider tires (>32mm). Wider tires are a blessing! More comfortable, can run at a lower pressure, more resistant to punctures, better traction in turns and actually roll faster. The All Road Bike Revolution by Jan Heine is a great read on this.
Oh dear.
RChung is offline  
Likes For RChung:
Old 04-08-21, 04:09 AM
  #88  
phrantic09
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,271

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3229 Post(s)
Liked 2,034 Times in 966 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi
I'm just curious to see some examples of bikes with what you believe to be poor value/quality mid-tier carbon wheels. I've seen stuff like Treks with their in-house ~$1300 msrp Aeolus wheels, bikes with Reynolds AR41 or similar, etc, and I think that, as a package, they're awesome values. Off the top of my head, I can't recall seeing any bikes with clunker carbon wheels.
My R3 has what you may call “clunker” wheels. They’re novatec hubs and rims but they weigh 1500g and work fine imo
phrantic09 is offline  
Old 04-08-21, 10:11 AM
  #89  
Erzulis Boat 
Le Crocodile
 
Erzulis Boat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Barbara Calif.
Posts: 1,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 367 Post(s)
Liked 771 Times in 311 Posts
Originally Posted by okoweq
Another persistent idea: skinny tires (<28mm) make you go faster than wider tires (>32mm). Wider tires are a blessing! More comfortable, can run at a lower pressure, more resistant to punctures, better traction in turns and actually roll faster. The All Road Bike Revolution by Jan Heine is a great read on this.
Don't worry. It won't be long before everyone starts touting "skinny" tires again.
Erzulis Boat is offline  
Old 04-09-21, 05:04 PM
  #90  
shoota 
Senior Member
 
shoota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Stillwater, OK
Posts: 8,128
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1871 Post(s)
Liked 689 Times in 467 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash
I've also seen people shove giant ziploc bags into their jersey pockets which is just... why.
Why not? It works great and is darn near free.
__________________
2014 Cannondale SuperSix EVO 2
2019 Salsa Warbird
shoota is offline  
Likes For shoota:
Old 04-09-21, 05:10 PM
  #91  
James1964 
Full Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 340
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked 150 Times in 95 Posts
Calling sprockets cogs

A cog is a single tooth on a sprocket. Even George Jetson knows this.
James1964 is offline  
Old 04-09-21, 07:19 PM
  #92  
smashndash
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,410

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 850 Post(s)
Liked 344 Times in 247 Posts
Originally Posted by shoota
Why not? It works great and is darn near free.
It sucks because now you have stuff on your person and less room in your pockets. It might be cheap but it makes no sense to be penny pinching over that while riding a $5000 to $12,000 bike.
smashndash is offline  
Old 04-10-21, 09:48 AM
  #93  
woodcraft
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
woodcraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by James1964
A cog is a single tooth on a sprocket. Even George Jetson knows this.

Huh. Never thought about that. However, my dictionary says that sprocket also refers to a tooth,

and the correct terms would be cog wheel, or sprocket wheel.
woodcraft is offline  
Old 04-10-21, 11:08 AM
  #94  
James1964 
Full Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 340
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked 150 Times in 95 Posts
Here's Merriam Webster's definition of sprocket:

Definition of sprocket

1: a toothed wheel whose teeth engage the links of a chain
2: a cylinder with teeth around the circumference at either end that project through perforations in something (such as motion-picture film) to move it through a mechanism (such as a projector)
James1964 is offline  
Old 04-10-21, 11:45 AM
  #95  
woodcraft
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
woodcraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by James1964
Here's Merriam Webster's definition of sprocket:

Definition of sprocket

1: a toothed wheel whose teeth engage the links of a chain
2: a cylinder with teeth around the circumference at either end that project through perforations in something (such as motion-picture film) to move it through a mechanism (such as a projector)

My Webster's says Sprocket:
1 Any of the teeth, as on the rim of a wheel, arranged to fit the links of a chain. 2 A wheel fitted with such teeth: in full 'sprocket wheel'.

But it's a compact desk dictionary- perhaps in this case a compact workbench dictionary would give a better result.

The unabridged also has (among nine definitions) cog as 'a wheel with cogs on it', so there's that...


Back to our overall topic, this doesn't exactly qualify, but there's a lot of fuss over bottom bracket drop, when IME there's little difference in measurement or function.
My current CX & road frames vary by 3mm, but I suppose others are more different and I haven't come across a bike with high BB.
woodcraft is offline  
Old 04-10-21, 04:11 PM
  #96  
znomit
Zoom zoom zoom zoom bonk
 
znomit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 4,623

Bikes: Giant Defy, Trek 1.7c, BMC GF02, Fuji Tahoe, Scott Sub 35, Kona Rove, Trek Verve+2

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 549 Post(s)
Liked 721 Times in 365 Posts
Originally Posted by James1964
A cog is a single tooth on a sprocket. Even George Jetson knows this.

https://www.cograilway.com
znomit is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.