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I almost got doored - yet most drivers blame me. How do we improve car culture?

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I almost got doored - yet most drivers blame me. How do we improve car culture?

Old 09-25-19, 09:17 AM
  #176  
sheddle
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waiting for some tech CEO with a whiz-bang invention to save us all is easy. actually building bike infrastructure is hard.

"How do we make cycling in cities safe" is a solved problem. What we lack is political will to implement the solutions, so instead we just wait around for some tech company. See also: mass transit

Last edited by sheddle; 09-25-19 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 09-25-19, 09:40 AM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
CRIKEY! Looking at that second video makes me shudder. Talk about an accident waiting to happen! Besides which, in parts of the video the dog is running BEHIND you where you can't see it. Unbelievable that you believe this is safe in any area where there are motor vehicles.

Cheers
This is the problem I have with the OP, he's setting up a false dichotomy where either the driver is doing bad or he's doing bad. In this case, I think it's quite obvious they're both doing bad. Having your dog running leashed to you while you're riding in a bike lane on the street is literally going to make every single maneuver on that bike more risky to yourself, the dog and other bicyclists in the lane.

This guy is abusing the bike lane and as a bicyclist, I wouldn't appreciate having to share the bike lane with anyone's dog and its leash any more than I would a double-parked car.
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Old 09-25-19, 09:46 AM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by Newspaper_Nick View Post
Do you really need to preach the same things over and over in all the threads in this forum? Bashing technology and expressing your disdain for the people who actually are trying to solve problems? And you bring nothing new to the table. Your nonsensical routine comes through a machine that you gladly hold in your hands, through wires and radio waves which are all a part of the same technological legacy that you hate, from the people who -"unlike you"- were actually "doing" something to change things.
It's much easier to say something just isn't possible rather than taking a risk and doing the heavy lifting necessary to turn a vision into reality. Building something when you know all the answers up front is easy. Fortunately, there are enough entrepreneurs willing to fail to ensure continued progress.
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Old 09-25-19, 09:51 AM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
It's much easier to say something just isn't possible rather than taking a risk and doing the heavy lifting necessary to turn a vision into reality. Building something when you know all the answers up front is easy. Fortunately, there are enough entrepreneurs willing to fail to ensure continued progress.
No, they're willing to fail to prevent progress. See this any time someone says we don't need bike lanes, or bus lanes, or mass transit because autonomous vehicles (which are totally going to be here by 2020), or hyperloops, or whatever will solve everything and we don't need to actually implement solutions which are proven to work.
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Old 09-25-19, 04:10 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by sheddle View Post
No, they're willing to fail to prevent progress. See this any time someone says we don't need bike lanes, or bus lanes, or mass transit because autonomous vehicles (which are totally going to be here by 2020), or hyperloops, or whatever will solve everything and we don't need to actually implement solutions which are proven to work.
I donít think anyone has said that and itís certainly not the case where I live. Bike infrastructure continues to improve despite objections from a vocal minority every time another vehicle lane is taken out of service.
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Old 09-25-19, 04:19 PM
  #181  
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Just be more careful and stay clear of doors. This isn't a physics problem. You are sharing the road with others. You too have to do something.

I'm outta here.
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Old 09-25-19, 04:34 PM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
It's much easier to say something just isn't possible rather than taking a risk and doing the heavy lifting necessary to turn a vision into reality. Building something when you know all the answers up front is easy. Fortunately, there are enough entrepreneurs willing to fail to ensure continued progress.
Who on this thread said something (or anything) about parked car door zone safety just isn't possible? Who on this thread said anything about anybody taking risks or doing the heavy lifting necessary to turn a vision about parked car door zone safety into reality? Which willing-to-fail entrepreneur did you have in mind who is ensuring continued progress towards bicycling-in-door zone-safety?

What this thread has demonstrated is that it is easy to say anything "might" happen at some future date.

What this thread has demonstrated is that it is easy to say that products currently are available to do what we would like them to do because somebody said so somewhere.

What this thread has demonstrated is that it is easy to become confused because someone in marketing renamed a current feature with limited capabilities with a fancy sounding 21st Century high zoot nomenclature, implying it now has capabilities that might be designed and incorporated sometime in the future, once the tech boys can figure out how to do it for the right price.
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Old 09-26-19, 05:41 AM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
Just be more careful and stay clear of doors. This isn't a physics problem. You are sharing the road with others. You too have to do something.

I'm outta here.
It sounds so simple when you put it like that. Thing is, I don't cycle in an isolated chamber where only one event happens at a time. Do you? That's the problems with that seemly simple but short sighted solution of staying clear of door zone.

If you read my above post you'll know that a door zone can occur anytime any where there is a vehicle. Including in the lane of travel. In simple terms, what do you do when you try to avoid the door zone and there's an obstacle/vehicle to the left, front, and behind you?

Cycling is a dynamic process, where things occur simultaneously, and decision to avoid all potential dangers all the time isn't always up to you.
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Old 09-26-19, 05:58 AM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post

What this thread has demonstrated is that it is easy to say that products currently are available to do what we would like them to do because somebody said so somewhere.
Similarly, it is easy to say that extant technology doesn't even exist.
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Old 09-26-19, 06:46 AM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
Similarly, it is easy to say that extant technology doesn't even exist.
Especially easy when it is true and it is said that specific applications of "Technology!" have yet to be made available to the public (such as "Technology!" applications for that make riding in the door zone any safer for bicyclists). All the references to blind spot warning systems are about features that do nothing to prevent occupants of parked vehicles from opening the vehicle doors in front of door zone riders.
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Old 09-26-19, 07:36 AM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
It sounds so simple when you put it like that. Thing is, I don't cycle in an isolated chamber where only one event happens at a time. Do you? That's the problems with that seemly simple but short sighted solution of staying clear of door zone.

If you read my above post you'll know that a door zone can occur anytime any where there is a vehicle. Including in the lane of travel. In simple terms, what do you do when you try to avoid the door zone and there's an obstacle/vehicle to the left, front, and behind you?

Cycling is a dynamic process, where things occur simultaneously, and decision to avoid all potential dangers all the time isn't always up to you.
Neither is eliminating all potential dangers. Even if there is a foolproof technological fix introduced in the next few years (dubious), we will still be dealing with the problem waiting for it to be introduced and even longer for it to be generally adopted. In the meantime, it makes a lot of sense to avoid riding in the more common door zones (driver leaving parked car variety) where possible, and going damn slow when it is not.

The opening of doors in the traffic lanes is really completely random and there is no way to know whether the risk is heightened at any given time, so a measure you have taken for safety reasons having nothing to do with dooring can suddenly put you in a collision course with a door. This nearly happened to me when I had taken a right hand turn lane to prevent getting right-hooked and just missed getting hit by the doors of a city bus in the lane to the left of me. The driver suddenly opened the doors in the middle of the block while I was a few feet to the right about a block and a half from the nearest stop, apparently in order to generate a breeze for himself while he drove. Missed me by a couple of inches and only because I was able to move to my right when I heard the doors opening.
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Old 09-26-19, 08:50 AM
  #187  
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the real question is why isn't the dog wearing a helmet or doggles?
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Old 09-26-19, 10:37 AM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Especially easy when it is true and it is said that specific applications of "Technology!" have yet to be made available to the public (such as "Technology!" applications for that make riding in the door zone any safer for bicyclists). All the references to blind spot warning systems are about features that do nothing to prevent occupants of parked vehicles from opening the vehicle doors in front of door zone riders.
and in practice this sort of thing will almost certainly be used as yet another talking point against building infrastructure.

I can already see "We don't need protected bike lanes because autonomous cars which automatically detect and safely pass cyclists will be here in a few years" on the 93rd Avenue Small Business Owners Against The War On Cars facebook page.
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Old 09-26-19, 12:20 PM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
It sounds so simple when you put it like that. Thing is, I don't cycle in an isolated chamber where only one event happens at a time. Do you? That's the problems with that seemly simple but short sighted solution of staying clear of door zone.

If you read my above post you'll know that a door zone can occur anytime any where there is a vehicle. Including in the lane of travel. In simple terms, what do you do when you try to avoid the door zone and there's an obstacle/vehicle to the left, front, and behind you?

Cycling is a dynamic process, where things occur simultaneously, and decision to avoid all potential dangers all the time isn't always up to you.
By NOT riding in the door zone you avoid most obstacles that'd prevent you from leaving the door zone. If a person insists in riding in the door zone then they should ride SLOW enough that they can stop at any time and hope that a door doesn't open just as they are riding past it.

Cheers
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Old 09-26-19, 06:19 PM
  #190  
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Since the OP is in California, getting hit by a suddenly-opened car door while riding may (and I'm not completely sure about this) be deemed the cyclist's fault. Yeah, it's a dumb move for a driver (or passenger in the back seat) to open the door into the path of an oncoming bike.

However, in our state (CA), bikes are treated very much the same as other vehicles. We are required to stay in our lane except when passing or turning, pedestrians always have the right-of-way, we are lawfully required to obey all signs and stoplights, etc. In essence, it's up to the moving vehicle to drive/ride carefully and remain cognizant of any and everything going on while riding on the street.

If a moving car were to hit an open door of a parked car, it would be the moving car driver's fault for not paying attention. A bike would be treated legally in much the same way. Someone opening a car door of a parked car may well be considered a pedestrian in CA...and hitting a pedestrian is a very big No-No in this state. One might be able to turn things around in a court of law, but the best/smart thing is to avoid allowing it to happen in the first place.The only way the driver of a parked car could be considered at fault would be if the car pulled out in front of the cyclist, door open or not.

Not sure how this might play out in any other state or country.

The best advice I can offer is: always assume a car (or its occupants) is going to do something stupid. Read my signature at the bottom for the rest of it....cheers....
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Old 09-27-19, 12:39 AM
  #191  
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Having read all the responses before I watched the video I was sympathetic to you. Not so after seeing the video and hearing the language you used. Totally unacceptable. You need to change your attitude, and the language you use with strangers. A little for-thought and prep like putting a bell or whistle on the bike could've prevented this whole unpleasant experience (for both parties).
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Old 09-27-19, 12:41 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by stephr1 View Post
Since the OP is in California, getting hit by a suddenly-opened car door while riding may (and I'm not completely sure about this) be deemed the cyclist's fault. Yeah, it's a dumb move for a driver (or passenger in the back seat) to open the door into the path of an oncoming bike.

However, in our state (CA), bikes are treated very much the same as other vehicles. We are required to stay in our lane except when passing or turning, pedestrians always have the right-of-way, we are lawfully required to obey all signs and stoplights, etc. In essence, it's up to the moving vehicle to drive/ride carefully and remain cognizant of any and everything going on while riding on the street.

If a moving car were to hit an open door of a parked car, it would be the moving car driver's fault for not paying attention. A bike would be treated legally in much the same way. Someone opening a car door of a parked car may well be considered a pedestrian in CA...and hitting a pedestrian is a very big No-No in this state. One might be able to turn things around in a court of law, but the best/smart thing is to avoid allowing it to happen in the first place.The only way the driver of a parked car could be considered at fault would be if the car pulled out in front of the cyclist, door open or not.

Not sure how this might play out in any other state or country.

The best advice I can offer is: always assume a car (or its occupants) is going to do something stupid. Read my signature at the bottom for the rest of it....cheers....
Blame the victim? No.

See post 145.
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Old 09-27-19, 08:34 AM
  #193  
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Streets need more angled parking spaces.

I believe drivers are much more careful when opening car doors in angled parking spaces.

Also much more safer for pedestrians and cyclists because drivers have no choice but to turn their heads to look backwards when backing out.

In parallel parking spaces, too many times drivers just glance in their mirror for cars before pulling out.
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Old 09-27-19, 09:18 AM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by BobbyG View Post
How hard would it be to fit a door with a motion sensor alarm?
Harder and more expensive than people looking before they open a door.
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Old 09-27-19, 09:37 AM
  #195  
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I was not blaming the victim at all. Not being a legal expert on CA state laws was why I put "may" in as a qualifier.

I missed that posting (actually skipped past it to the end). Thanks for the pointer.

So I guess in CA the person *opening* the door would be deemed at fault. And while the cyclist would be on the right side of the law, it wouldn't prevent the cyclist from suffering bike or body damage.

I do still stand by my last paragraph, tho....The best advice I can offer is: always assume a car (or its occupants) is going to do something stupid. Read my signature at the bottom for the rest of it....cheers....




Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Blame the victim? No.

See post 145.
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Old 09-27-19, 09:42 AM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Streets need more angled parking spaces.
This is the best possible solution for vehicles and those passing.

I believe drivers are much more careful when opening car doors in angled parking spaces.

Also much more safer for pedestrians and cyclists because drivers have no choice but to turn their heads to look backwards when backing out.
Drives are rarely careful. But that's why this solution has to be an intuitive one that forces them into a state of attention.

In parallel parking spaces, too many times drivers just glance in their mirror for cars before pulling out.
Everybody's in a hurry. And the default is the "other" guy is not moving fast enough.
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Old 09-27-19, 09:45 AM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
I don't think anyone could reasonably deny that this is a hazardous condition:



https://offthebackistan.tumblr.com/p...ten-ride-on-or

Could you safely avoid this hazardous condition and still ride in the bike lane? I don't think so. So the law, at least in California where I live, reasonably allows a rider to leave the bike lane to avoid this hazardous condition.

Does the hazardous condition only exist while the door is actually opened? No. The essential hazardousness is the possibility that the door will be suddenly and without warning flung into the path of the rider. And the reasonable action would be to ride beyond the reach of the hazard which, as you can see from the photo, would require you to ride outside the bike lane.

So you pass the first car, and you've passed the hazardous condition presented by its door. Now we come to the next car, and its door. Does it present a hazardous condition? Of course. So, you'd be within the exception in the statute to continue to stay outside the bike lane, right? Now a third car. Does its door present a hazardous condition? Of course. So again, you'd be within the exception to continue to ride outside the bike lane, and so on and so on.
At that point on that road, I would be in the auto lane. Auto traffic is light and no motorist would have any difficulty going around me. Risk of a rear strike is minimal and auto speed will likely be low. I will say though that when I drive in and out of shadows, like auto traffic on that road will, it takes a lot more attention to detect cyclists in the road ahead when I am in the sun and the cyclist is in the shade. I'd be on high alert when autos approached from behind. Traffic and riding are dynamic environments though. Further down the parking lane may be empty. In that case I'd ride the bike lane. Riding is a constant state of evaluating hazards and mitigating risks. Unless I can see into a parked vehicle well enough to ensure nobody is in it, I will not normally ride in a door zone. If I am forced ride in a door zone I will slow down to a point I feel like I have time to react.
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Old 09-27-19, 10:31 AM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
At that point on that road, I would be in the auto lane. Auto traffic is light and no motorist would have any difficulty going around me. Risk of a rear strike is minimal and auto speed will likely be low. I will say though that when I drive in and out of shadows, like auto traffic on that road will, it takes a lot more attention to detect cyclists in the road ahead when I am in the sun and the cyclist is in the shade. I'd be on high alert when autos approached from behind.
LOL, you must ride the roads in some small town in Kansas where everybody knows everybody's name? Unless the bike lane is completely separated, the only assumption we can make about motorist is that they will find a way to be grumpy no matter how you ride.
Traffic and riding are dynamic environments though. Further down the parking lane may be empty. In that case I'd ride the bike lane. Riding is a constant state of evaluating hazards and mitigating risks. Unless I can see into a parked vehicle well enough to ensure nobody is in it, I will not normally ride in a door zone. If I am forced ride in a door zone I will slow down to a point I feel like I have time to react.
Which is what I've been saying all along. There are basic understandings for riding safety, but no one rule of simple behavior adjustment that will keep you save in all conditions under every circumstance.

To simple say, don't ride in the door lane is simple-minded and just puts you in another location of equal or greater potential danger. In the case of the above (there are many streets like that where I live), to avoid the door zone, you're riding in the streets back where you started.
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Old 09-27-19, 10:39 AM
  #199  
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To simple say, don't ride in the door lane is simple-minded and just puts you in another location of equal or greater potential danger.
I agree, and not only that, you become a greater annoyance to motorists, which sometimes ends up justifying anti-social acts on their part. Especially if cyclists become militant about using the entire lane in situations when they have no reasonable reason to be doing so.

I would add that a greater danger than doors, in my experience, has been kids and animals running out from between parked cars.
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Old 09-27-19, 11:21 AM
  #200  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Streets need more angled parking spaces.

I believe drivers are much more careful when opening car doors in angled parking spaces.

Also much more safer for pedestrians and cyclists because drivers have no choice but to turn their heads to look backwards when backing out.

In parallel parking spaces, too many times drivers just glance in their mirror for cars before pulling out.
I assume you have never angle parked alongside of a large or lifted pickup, van or SUV. Backing out into traffic under such obstructed vision of approaching traffic conditions requires creeping out at very slow speed and a prayer that no traffic is approaching too closely to the rear of the vehicle backing up (something a clueless, careless or distracted cyclist who thinks that drivers backing vehicles from angled parking can always see them is likely to be doing). Better wait for Technology! to be installed in every vehicle that either can see through or over body panels of large vehicles before wishing for angled parking to protect cyclists who ride carelessly too close to parked vehicles

Note that many urban streets are not built as wide as those in suburban areas and there is no room for angled parking spaces without reducing the width or removing the sidewalk or traffic lane(s).

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 09-27-19 at 11:24 AM.
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